[Deck] Death and Taxes

Hi everybody, i'm a new writer but i've been following your thoughts for a couple of months.
Let's take a look. Could this list be a good point to start crazy testing?

4x Thalia 1.0
4x mom
4x SfM
3x Flicker
3x Recruiter
2x Prelate
2x Revoker
2x Thalia 2.0
1x Mirran crusader
1x Magus
1x SotL

4x vial
4x stp
3x equip

3x Karakas
4x Waste
4x Port
4x CoS
8x Plains

SB

3x PtE
2x RiP
2x E. Canonist
1x C. Priest
1x Faerie m.
1x Prelate
1x Magus
1x Manriki
1x Revoker
1x Mirran c.
1x Leonin r w

I forgot. I always play 61 cards, 61 cards is my religion.

Iatee, I agree that testing is what we are onto at the moment. I would sure like to get some in, and I certainly will. But I hope we can get some more folks to do so also.

to ALL: Please do some testing with a desired build and return with some numbers or at least impressions.

---On Chrome Mox (and to a lesser extent Ancient Tomb and even lesser extent Noble Hierarch): The idea here is to leverage card disadvantage for a stronger board presence. That includes the strong possibility that you can make up that disadvantage due to that board presence. This is the way STAX is built. I do not think any of us are in a position to say for sure if our new cards warrant that approach. We do not know how strong the combination of THC, TGT, Revoker, and especially Prelate together will be at disabling opposing decks in practice. Or precisely how these choices will affect our use of Recuiter to get them. And so on...

The point is that the stronger the control elements are, the more sense it makes to accelerate into them. It is POSSIBLE that we might decide to trim Swords to Plowshares from the main in the face of a very strong showing from Prelate. But if our disruption package turns out to simply be only mildly more effective, then the short-term disadvantage makes less sense and we should not use acceleration. The proposition of 2x Chrome Mox from me is a starting point. As is the 2x Prelate. We start there to find out which direction to go. And I bet it will not take long for a consensus to arise. (Frankly, I will be starting with four of each to speed up the testing procedure.)

---The value of Recruiter: Not a waste of a body unless you are facing combo. There are matchups where Thalia is the play on turn 2, but there are some for which I prefer Mystic. Mystic represents a danger for the opponent. It has done damage and could continue to do so unless you deal with it now - especially if you fetched Batterskull. Recruiter is the same. Flicker it once and you get a free creature. Ask the Imperial guys if this is a big deal. It is. I GUARANTEE you that opponents will be Lightning Bolting this creature if you fetched a Flickerwisp.

---The need for a strong turn 2 play: I am on board with the guys who think this is critical. We need to max out on 2-drops (and possibly acceleration to make out 3s look like 2s.)

Recruiters look innocuous, but when you have equipment in your deck, any additional body has the potential to be a threat. I throw a Jitte on these guys and put them on suicide missions pretty regularly. Against Eldrazi or Goyf blocking with a Recruiter becomes a way to stall time while setting up your board - Demonic Tutor + gain 5 life is not actually the worst against an aggro deck. A body is rarely irrelevant in a format where the board usually doesn't contain more than a handful of permanents.

Finn, I would play a Path to Exile as a 5th STP in the main before I went to 3 STPs. Prelate on 1 + STP is nonbo, but so is Monastery Mentor and Terminus. Sometimes it's awkward, most of the time you're just happy to have so many powerful cards in your deck, and you attempt to sequence them well. Additionally, no Serra Avengers leaves you weaker to an actual Delver.

I've actually been testing a version with zero spot removal, FWIW. I plan on including 3-4 MD Recruiter and 2 MD + 2 SB Prelate. Not having removal MD surprisingly hasn't been a serious issue, and it opens up more variety for creatures MD. I lose more games to not having dudes on the board than I do to opposing dudes. Or ladies, in our case... more creatures in this deck have female pictures than male, I think. Thalia 1&2, Mom, SFM, Avenger, even Prelate and Recruiter if I'm not mistaken. Mangara, Mirran, Wisp, and Revoker are the only ones clearly not female, and two of those are asexual. Anyway, it really allows me to run 3-4 Avengers main, which is huge considering how influential a flier can be.

Edit: I should also mention I'm testing a playset of Deserts also, probably on the SB for the more combat oriented matchups. I also have a Basilisk Collar and a Godsend that Stoneforge can fetch up if need be.

@Finn & @iatee: I would really test Sanitarium in regard of filtering dead cards. I think it's worth exploring.

Recruiter by itself is already a huge threat, simply because of the horde of "free" Flickerwisps it can summon if left alone.

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Originally Posted by Barook

@Finn & @iatee: I would really test Sanitarium in regard of filtering dead cards. I think it's worth exploring.

Recruiter by itself is already a huge threat, simply because of the horde of "free" Flickerwisps it can summon if left alone.

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I'd play Sensei's Divining Top before Sanitarium, simply because tapping 3 lands for a symmetrical effect seems bad. What is more, there are easily over a dozen archetypes that actually benefit from discarding cards of their choice, while we don't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iatee

Getting the perfect SB card to win the matchup or to get out of a situation helps win against the vast majority of legacy. I started out playing Imperial Taxes with 2 Recruiters, moved to 3 and then eventually 4. I kept increasing the number because I found myself hoping to draw into that card more than anything else. It can be clunky and slow when you don't have a Vial and you give up some consistency there, but you make up for it by winning games where you used to be praying for good topdecks.
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When I started with the Imperial splash I started with 3 Recruiter and 3 Magus, I very quickly went up to 4 Recruiters and never even considered dropping any Magus, they're all simply so darn powerful. I'm alright with "wasting" a turn, as some of you guys have been saying it, to get a chump blocker and a critter I really need. They are also why I've won several games against Miracles. I fully intend on testing out a total of 5 recruiters in my build tomorrow night in a 2-3 split. They both have their uses, Thalis 2.0 and Flickerwisp being tutorable is amazing, and getting Fiend Hunter or Kor Skyfisher is wonderful too.

Brand new to the forums but have just finished buying into D&T.

Have the standard list right now, but will be adding the recruiters and the prelates when they come out. Probably going to wait a bit to see how the deck shakes out before ordering (ports are pricey😂).

Here is what I am going to run.

4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 stoneforge
2 revoker
3 recruiter
2 prelate
2 Mirran crusader
2 Thalia Heretic
3 flicker wisp

4 vial
4 swords
1 Batterskull
1 sofi
1 jitte

3 karakas
4 wasteland
4 port
3 cavern
9 plains

Now sure of the sudeboard as of yet, though I think with recruiter the 3 drops can become more flex spots, and we can use them to find our sideboard pieces much more reasonably.

Something like this perhaps.

2 canonist
2 containment priest
1 pitching needle
2 Gideon ally of zendikar
2 rest in peace
1 banisher priest
1 cataclysm
2 councils judgement
2 path to exile

Jesus this thread has gone down deep down the rabbit hole lately.

Anyway, I just want to make the comment that I think all of the original Imperial Taxes players know: filling your deck with 3 mana 1/1s and taking out or shaving the brute force cards (Avenger/Crusader) means it does not brawl as effectively as it used to.

I remember playing a long grindy game against BURG Aluren (the one with shardless agent in it) with OG Imperial Taxes (3 Recruiter, 3 Magus, pre P+K or the Skyfisher tech) and watching as all my equipment got dealt with and I was left with a board of 1/2s and 1/1s - which match up very poorly against Deathrite Shaman and Shardless Agent.

It was Pia and Kiran Nalaar's printing that brought me back to the deck and has kept me there. P+K rewards you for playing a much more value based game because:
1: it is fucking insane by itself;
2: it synergises so well with the deck (equipment, vial, karakas, human etc), but most of all:
3: it rewards you for playing a longer game, which you are trying to do with Recruiter.

Now, getting to this stage of the game is quite a bit tricky sometimes but that's fine because Imperial Taxes has the turn 3 or 4 "I Win" button in Magus of the Moon. I am not convinced that new Taxes has this and I don't consider Prelate to be on that level. It is obviously very strong against some decks but a turn 3 chalice is still quite slow remember.

Mono white does not have access to these cards, which makes me wonder about the number of New Recruiters that should be played. Playing 3 or 4 makes sense in Imperial Taxes, but not in normie DnT. I would probably play 2 new recruiters at most and still play 2 Serra Avengers.

Something like:

4 Æther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
2 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Sanctum Prelate
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Rest in Peace

Mindbreak Trap in the SB because I imagine with this deck becoming close to over-powered there's going to be a lot of TES, Belcher, Oops etc running around to lol at our plans of getting to turn 2.

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

Mindbreak Trap in the SB because I imagine with this deck becoming close to over-powered there's going to be a lot of TES, Belcher, Oops etc running around to lol at our plans of getting to turn 2.

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I definitely see this happening. Mark Stevestamopz's words (and stock up on Minbreak Trap if you don't already have a playset, I guess :)).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

Jesus this thread has gone down deep down the rabbit hole lately.

Anyway, I just want to make the comment that I think all of the original Imperial Taxes players know: filling your deck with 3 mana 1/1s and taking out or shaving the brute force cards (Avenger/Crusader) means it does not brawl as effectively as it used to.

I remember playing a long grindy game against BURG Aluren (the one with shardless agent in it) with OG Imperial Taxes (3 Recruiter, 3 Magus, pre P+K or the Skyfisher tech) and watching as all my equipment got dealt with and I was left with a board of 1/2s and 1/1s - which match up very poorly against Deathrite Shaman and Shardless Agent.

It was Pia and Kiran Nalaar's printing that brought me back to the deck and has kept me there. P+K rewards you for playing a much more value based game because:
1: it is fucking insane by itself;
2: it synergises so well with the deck (equipment, vial, karakas, human etc), but most of all:
3: it rewards you for playing a longer game, which you are trying to do with Recruiter.

Now, getting to this stage of the game is quite a bit tricky sometimes but that's fine because Imperial Taxes has the turn 3 or 4 "I Win" button in Magus of the Moon. I am not convinced that new Taxes has this and I don't consider Prelate to be on that level. It is obviously very strong against some decks but a turn 3 chalice is still quite slow remember.

Mono white does not have access to these cards, which makes me wonder about the number of New Recruiters that should be played. Playing 3 or 4 makes sense in Imperial Taxes, but not in normie DnT. I would probably play 2 new recruiters at most and still play 2 Serra Avengers.

Something like:

4 Æther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
2 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Sanctum Prelate
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Rest in Peace

Mindbreak Trap in the SB because I imagine with this deck becoming close to over-powered there's going to be a lot of TES, Belcher, Oops etc running around to lol at our plans of getting to turn 2.

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Yeah, it makes sense that it would be better in a red splash but like you said in mono white we don't necessarily have enough to back it up.

I got a chance to do some testing yesterday, I only goldfished but my goal was to see what effect on turn 1-2-3-4-5-6 chrome Mox and recruiter would have on the game and I gotta say it was meh. I was running normal stock DnT taking out a few cards to playtest with specifically 4 chrome Mox and 4 recruiter (ik many people wouldn't run a full playset but I did it because I wanted to accelerate the testing and the probability of drawing more than 2 is still pretty low.)

I took some notes while testing so here they are - sorry they are kinda sparadic:
"It seems like, even with chrome mox having to many three drops in the deck is not beneficial, The deck is a tempo control deck at heart and cannot afford so many high cost cards. The two drops are the sweet spot and without them the deck becomes to slow.

While a turn one thalia is good, it completely hoses you for the late and mid game. Dropping 4 of the 7 cards in your hand is far from beneficial and many times at least one of those 3 cards left is either an aether vial or a land which in no way helps our strategy at all.

Chrome mox is just like running simian spirit guide but worse because it seriously provides enourmous card disadvantage and honestly recruiter does not provide enough reasonable card advantage to back this up. In all of the games I tested the majority of the time if chrome mox had been a hate bear instead the late game would have been better.

A 4 and possibly even a 3 or 2 of is just way way way to aggressive, and we are not an aggro deck. We cant afford to loose any card advantage because our deck is fragile in that aspect.

Now on ROTG, Its a good card but agian maybe only a 2 of, Its incredibly slow and honestly I feel like actually lowers our mid and early game consistency greatly."

So in conclusion chrome Mox really really seemed to hose all of our decks inevatibility in the mid and late game to focus on getting out a single hate bear. And Recruiter of the guard imo doesn't provide enough card advantage to back this up even as a 4 of. It felt really really bad to even play a chrome Mox because many times in order for it to be effective which would be turn 1-2 you are either dumping a swords to plowshare or another hate bear which you are already lacking in numbers of. Then you're left with three cards in hand assuming you didn't mulligan and one of them is usually a land, or a card that won't do much. Recruiter of the guard was alright but even so too many three drops with chrome Mox still just didn't seem to work well. It felt really clunky and using all your resources to get out 1 hatebear on turn 1-2 that MAY stick because it's gonna get removed in most MU was just eh. I mean I can see how in some match ups it'd help but in a lot of situations I feel like the mid game is way more important.

Now onto recruiter, again it's a good card but it being a three drop and something that doesn't affect the board state directly at all was just really slow. I understand you could attach an equipment to it but that's the ideal situation. And we will not always be in ideal situations when playing. However in spite of this After testing imo a 1 or 2 of could be really effective as a supplement to squeeze as much value as we can out of our deck. I'd even consider maybe running one MB and put 1-2 in the SB because it is fairly good in a few MU's

Just wanted to confirm Stevestamopz words...

As a long-time imperial player you really do miss those bodies that can brawl.... a few month ago I switched back to mono-white for a tourney (because it was low level and I was expecting a lot of burn,D&T,etc... and didn't need the magus's) and I was delighted DELIGHTED by having access to Serra Avenger again or multiple copies of Mirran Crusader... it just felt so powerful.


Also want to add that I have been playing a P+K in the main for almost 3 months now and that card is just so...freaking...gross. When I played it vs. half my opponents they honestly look so flummoxed and hopeless against what it represents. The first time I ticked a vial to 4 and then vial'd it in with a Karakas at the ready... my shardless opponent looked ready to scoop.

I'm not saying that the imperial version is still better; being mono white has a lot of advantages. But cutting all your threats to make room for things that find threats (that aren't threats themselves) can be a little counter-intuitive.

Serra Avenger and Mirran Crusader have won me more games than any other card with D&T (I run two of each), but I also have a LGS with a lot of Shardless and Lands variations. I have no doubt that Recruiter will be awesome, but I don't want to lose out on those two cards either.

I think the recruiter paradigm should be addressed in this way:

Are you going to play a diversity of creatures in you mainboard to support a toolbox effect when you play a Recruiter? If yes, play 3/4. If no, play 0/1.

Are you OK in your metagame and don't really need to warp your deck to have good results? If no, consider playing Recruiter. If yes, consider playing recruiter in your board as a 1/2 of, this way you board it in as a threat density in the matches when you know if you draw X you win/deal with the game state.

Are you playing Imperial Taxes already? If yes consider a 5/6 split among the recruiters (as in 1/4, 4/1, 3/3, 3/2, 2/3, 4/2, 2/4) and you'll play the most diversified toolbox taxes in the county. If no, ask yourself 'would I play Imperial Taxes?'.

I'll play 2 maybe in the main, maybe in the board or even a split.
Remember that boarding in a recruiter is essentially the same as boarding in a Crusader + Thalia GT/HC + Mom + Wisp + whatever bullets you already have in your MD. I say this cause this has been discussed all the way as it only warps your deck. You can play recruiter profitably without warping your deck, but making it more consistent instead. It's the very definition of a flex slot for those who don't want to play toolbox.

Why do you all discuss the Recruiter? He will be just 1 in your deck. Sanctum Prelate - is IMBA! 4 in main 100%

I'm on 1 recruiter and 2 Prelates now . I'm not willing to give up Avengers and Displacer.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Jon

I'm on 1 recruiter and 2 Prelates now . I'm not willing to give up Avengers and Displacer.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

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Jon, just curious if you could post your list (easier rather than ask how many of card X, Y, and Z you run).
2 Prelates been enough for you? I'm considering running 4x in the 75 but cant decide how to mix and match it. I may ultimately settle on 3x because of space.

I'll post the list tomorrow after work.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

The problem with stocking up on prelates in the main, imo, is that it will make us weaker to the now-likely more common mirror, Eldrazi, and other creature based Maverick style lists. Personally, I'm still a bit reluctant to max out on it against delver, especially when we're playing 7 1-mana removal spells post board.

Also, after a few games against miracles with the new cards, I have realized that it is now better not to cut most plows, since our increased lategame power means that they will now try to fight us with creatures like Staticaster, aggressive Mentors, and Sulfur Elemental more than ever post board. This is something Imperial players had mentioned before and that I never really understood playing mono white, but when you have access to the pressure engine of Recruiter and the safety of Prelate, it becomes much easier to justify that plow sitting in your hand, especially since you know that they've almost certainly taken out their CBs against your 3-4x caverns. For the same reason, I think that Council's Judgement is better then Cataclysm in the board (mirror and Eldrazi included).

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Originally Posted by Luca Grease

The problem with stocking up on prelates in the main, imo, is that it will make us weaker to the now-likely more common mirror, Eldrazi, and other creature based Maverick style lists. Personally, I'm still a bit reluctant to max out on it against delver, especially when we're playing 7 1-mana removal spells post board.

Also, after a few games against miracles with the new cards, I have realized that it is now better not to cut most plows, since our increased lategame power means that they will now try to fight us with creatures like Staticaster, aggressive Mentors, and Sulfur Elemental more than ever post board. This is something Imperial players had mentioned before and that I never really understood playing mono white, but when you have access to the pressure engine of Recruiter and the safety of Prelate, it becomes much easier to justify that plow sitting in your hand, especially since you know that they've almost certainly taken out their CBs against your 3-4x caverns. For the same reason, I think that Council's Judgement is better then Cataclysm in the board (mirror and Eldrazi included).

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*typing on iPhone so forgive me if there are errors

I guess I am very optimistic on Prelate. If DNT is ruining mana bases by default, a team of thalia 1.0 + prelate more or less disables your opponent from playing spells. My gut is saying run 4x in the 75 because Prelate is your one sided chalice of the void with legs. For 3 mana you get to arbitrarily pick what cc spells cannot be played by your opponent. IMO, this deck loses when spells are played. DNT can hold its own on the ground. The real problem has always been opposing players casting cantrips, comboing out with spells, sweeping your board, and stealing momentum with a well timed OP planeswalker. Suddenly we have the option to disable that. The other plus is that we're discussing Prelate in legacy, where X will likely be = 1 or 2 most of the time. There are perks of making X somewhere between 3 and 5. Fringe cases to call X at 6 or 7. You mentioned not liking her in the mirror or against maverick because she's not that strong but in my experience, the only way Maverick beats DNT is through having a better board state usually via active moms or with spells (swords, path, zealous, toxic). The real mirror has a lot of intricacies but I wouldn't discount the impact you have on making STP and CJ suddenly worthless for your opponent.