Yeah those entire color combinations are just unplayable. Shame. What deck could anybody possibly build with U/b/r using the Legacy card pool without Dig Through Time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamaatae
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Yeah those entire color combinations are just unplayable. Shame. What deck could anybody possibly build with U/b/r using the Legacy card pool without Dig Through Time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamaatae
See belowQuote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
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Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Storm puts up a fight against Delver, but I don't agree it crushes it. It's not like we are talking about Nic Fit, Goblins or Elves where they often are like helpless babe's in the woods. Crush, DnT crushes Sneak and Show, Elves crushes DnT, Lands crushes Delver (most of the time). The matches are slanted badly in one direction. I don't feel that was about Storm v Delver. Not when they have a good clock they can back up with disrupting effects and sideboard answers.
i dunno what delver he was referring to, but if youre getting crushed by storm with rug youre doing something wrong.
- black vise unbanned
- dig gone
- modo events going halfway back to normal
- water found on mars
Todaywasagoodday.gif
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Originally Posted by danyul
There's a reason for all the dick jokes, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac
Black Vise getting unbanned literally made my day. The chance of having double Black Vise on turn 1 with Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors is 4.13%, and 5.12% with Mox Diamonds. In other words, there is a chance.
As a person who has had a non zero amount of success with storm, it doesn't crush delver, but I don't think it's a horrible match up by any means. I'll take delver over MUD almost any day
I don't think anyone here is saying delver crushes storm. There was one guy who was saying the opposite, which is simply not true, and that was the point others and I took issue with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
The DTT ban is nice, but I really don't think anything good will come of Black Vise entering the format. Just an utterly miserable card to play against; doesn't make sense to get rid of one (Dig) and replace it with another.
I guess the silver lining is that Vise is mostly shit and is unlikely to see a whole lot of play.
Edit: Derp, forgot semicolon.
Grinding Station ANT has a clearly favored position vs non-Deathrite Shaman Delver decks in my experience. Playing the deck vs Canadian feels quite good, though "crush" is clearly hyperbole. Against Grixis Delver (pre-ban) even with deathrites it still felt like a very decent matchup to me. BUG-delver of 13/14 isn't a ton of fun to face for Storm, but not a horrible matchup neither but one that feels even-to-unfavored for Grinding Station ANT.
I didn't check your math - did you account for needed two lands with the Mox hand - if so, how many lands are you assuming are in this deck? If this is a MUD/Stacks list with Welder, Petal might be in there too.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
Of course this opener is much weaker on the play and is weak against FOW.
I've lost to a turn one Emrakul playing against Sneak Show, so I think this is okay.
Agreed. The scenarios for Vise are:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamaican Zombie Legend
1. It does nothing, so why unban it from a viable card pool and gameplay experience POV.
2. It does something, in which case it will ruin games and punish clunky keeps that a good player might be able to navigate into a good position just because those hands won't flow as well.
3. We all love Delver, do we need #5-8?
Basically, the reasons for unbanning Vise are a shorter banlist and just because, not any actual expectation of benefit to the format. It's Fun EV is starkly negative.
Totally wrong. The reason for Black Vises unban is the usual "prisoner exchange" and it not being a potential combo cardQuote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
The one with lifelinker...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Uh, I said the reason was a shorter ban list. It's the motive behind their prisoner exchange program, to keep the line count as low as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Let me clarify. Most Delver players are mouthbreathing mongoloids who's results are carried by herpderp 3/2 flying for U with free spells (see: SCG circuit) (also see: the 7-0 BUG Delver player who tried to Pithing Needle and Stifle LED in the same game). So yes, I am correct in saying that Storm crushes 70%+ of Delver players. I do agree that Delver in the hands of a good player can be hard though.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
Stifle on LED... Can you even make that play with a straight face?
He pithing needled LED. Storm player goes off the turn after. Judge had to come over and explain that Needle doesn't do anything vs LED.....so he casts Stifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spam
Reminds me of the guy who first tried to Ancient Grudge a Sphinx of the Steel Wind; judge comes over and explains how protection works. Guy nods, then casts Krosan Grip on it. Game Loss.
Or the guy who was so tricky, he cast Fire//Ice on LED in the opponent's upkeep. Fun fact: unlike Lotus, LED doesn't tap to activate.
That shouldn't even be possible, right? Not talking illegal target but LED doesn't even use the stack to begin with, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
That's 100% the joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
It wasn't a joke though :PQuote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
Guy finished 9th and missed top-8 on breakers if I recall correctly. This was at a 1500+ gp btw in case that was missed by anybody.
Magic for ya
While his command of the rules was clearly not the best he was probably good at the other skills needed to do well in a tournament (i.e. when to mulligan, what to counter, ect)Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
All this aside, I'm pretty sure the cards safe to come off are Mind Twist and Earthcraft. Earthcraft would fit nicely in Enchantress, making it do what it wants to do faster by letting you untap lands that tap for 3+. Mind Twist can be seen as a "bad hymn to tourach" most of the time but it could serve nicely as hymn 5-8.
Also, I doubt that Survival of the Fittest is as strong as it was... maybe that can come off too.
Should I cast Delver turn 1 or pass?Quote:
Originally Posted by ajfennewald
Earthcraft with the way Magic has been going with token factories [mentor/pyro/twin/bitterblossom/even bridge from below], is not a great idea. The card would have to be errata'd to say "tap an untapped creature card: untap target basic land." Earthcraft has additive issues with Mind Twist [albeit only really in pox] with a fast blossom/earthcraft into twist. While that is a pretty fringe scenario, the now-legal Vise+Stasis+Quirion might be a little too good with an active earthcraft.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
Sounds like you're just backtracking off your initial factually incorrect statement, to follow it up with more sweeping, factually incorrect statements. Plus, who the hell talks about match up probabilities assuming the person playing Deck A is bad, and the person playing deck B is good?Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
What you're currently saying: "There was one BUG Delver player who wasn't familiar with the rules, ergo, 70% of delver players are bad."
I don't think a strong discard deck is actually fun for anyone or good for the format, 8-rack is a one of the more miserable decks in modern. so even if unbanned mind twist just creates a t1.5 discard deck, it's not a deck that makes legacy more fun or interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
So, Dig Trough Time os gone. Good News, but I would feel a lot happier if it was Show and Tell.
Delver is the "go-to" deck for people who don't know the format. Why can't we factor this in? I was merely stating that if you show up to a reasonably large tournament you'll face tons of bad Delver players. And as for the BUG player, it's not a matter of not knowing the rules -- it's the fact that he can't read his own cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
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Originally Posted by iatee
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Originally Posted by iatee
Sometimes you should look at your post and do some simple word substitution to see how inane your statement is.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Since when is "fun" a requirement? My turn 1 Belcher meeting a Force of Will isn't fun. Ban Force of Will?Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I'm pretty sure casting Mind Twist is fun so your argument is flawed anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
In fact I do think t1 belcher-style decks should be banned too. Legacy is a great and complex format overall, but nobody shows up to a tournament so they can have 0 to 1 instance of interaction w/ their opponent in the game.
Would you be interested in showing up to a tournament w/ 100% belcher and oops all spells players?
Control decks and slower combo decks both allow for interesting games and decisions by both players. Mono-discard decks like modern 8 rack don't really, the games don't tend to be complex or interesting. As w/ the belcher example above, I think a good test is 'Would people who play this deck actually have any fun at a tournament where literally everyone was playing their deck?' Tons of control players would love that (given longer rounds) and a sneak and show mirror still allows for a lot of interesting games. But a modern 8-rack tournament would obviously be boring as hell and essentially luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
It's so cute when people confuse "strategy I don't like" with "bad luck-based deck".Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Why? Because it doesn't fit your "fun" criteria?Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Oh, and attacking with 12 goblins twice can be considered two instances of interaction.
Any tournament with 100% of one deck would not be interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
There is a spectrum of interesting. I think most people would rather play in or watch a mono-miracles tournament than watch their opponent play out their hand and either win or lose on turn one. Playing belcher is more like performing some trolly art project than it is like playing magic the gathering.