[Deck] The Rock

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Originally Posted by Plague Sliver

Double post here as I wanted to share testing results.

I'm running sdematt's latest Junk Blade list, and played a couple practice games vs. Miracles, Delver, and Shardless Bug.

Observations -- maindeck:
- Lingering Souls: the nuts. Easily the best card in Miracles and BUG matchups. I didn't know before, and now I do.
- Not running Batterskull is a decent choice in these matchups, especially with Dryad Arbor as a possibility for equipping Swords + no real way to protect Stoneforge Mystic via Mom. If they strand Batterskull in your hand, it really sucks.
- Siege Rhino feels underwhelming. In almost all matchups, I wish it were a Lilliana. There aren't enough ways to find it (1x GSZ), and it's not always easy getting to 4 colored mana. Moreover, the only ramp is DRS. I would prefer running Rhino in Junk Nic Fit instead.
- There's a case to be made for going down from 3 to 2 Sylvan Libraries.

Observations -- sideboard:
- Carpet of Flowers underperformed. I almost always wished it were Choke instead. There's not much I really want to ramp into.
- Display of Dominance wasn't so hot. It stopped Decay here and there, but whenever I drew it, I wish it were more proactive disruption like Maelstrom Pulse instead.

At the risk of offending everybody on the thread, I think it's better to go hard Maverick or Junk Nic Fit as alternative options. Of course it's dependent on playstyle. Maybe I just appreciate Rhino and Stoneforge in other shells more.

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"Played in Nic fit" and "Playable in legacy" is totally different things.

In a typical "Rock/Junk" deck, even all-stars like SFM and Bob are competing slots to have full copies of 4. And the deck often totally exclude 3cc creatures. So a 4cc creature need very very strong reason to stay. I don't think Siege Rhino make the cut.

BTW, although Nic fit have "strange" cards like Broodmate dragon and Thrugtusk, it is not "a legacy deck playing Standard/EDH/Cube garbage". A creature still need to ensure its special funtion for being there...

Trying this for the next couple of weeks:

3 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
1 Council's Judgment (there's been a spike in Nic Fit and TNN in my meta, recently)
3 STP
4 Decay
3 Equipment
3 Sylvan
1 GSZ

23 Lands with Arbor

3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Open

I think for the 2 Open slots I'll try 1 Sylvan Safekeeper and 1 Thrun, or 2 Hymns, or something like that. Display of Dominance is only okay, and I think Judgment is going to do more work all around by hitting Jaces, Batterskulls, TNN's, Thruns, etc. I've been missing a Pulse slot, and generally it is a better Pulse. A possibility is also cutting 1 GSZ, 1 Judgment and a land/Sylvan and running 3 Hymn maindeck again. The deck is already clogged a lot at 2, so I might not go for it.

-Matt

Mom-junk got 10th at the IQ ("deadguy ale")

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=82340

So I'm going to kyoto tomorrow for the GP
This is the 75 I'm looking to take, some slots I'm still pondering over though.
(I dropped sylvan library because I have enough card advantage and wanted to interact more)
(My friend persuaded me back on a couple of liliana simply cause it's so versatile and a TNN answer, that said with myth realized and tokens running around, I figured the third should be a catch all council's)

4 Verd Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh flats / 2 flats and 2nd treetop
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
2 Scrubland
1 Treetop
4 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goyf
4 Bob
3 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 Thoughtsieze
2 IoK
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lingering Souls
2 Liliana
1 Council's Judgment / 3rd Lili / 3rd IoK / 23rd land (2nd treetop)
38
60

2 Surgical
2 needle
2 containment priest
2 canonist
2 Thalia
2 Teeg
1 Zealous Persecution / Golgari charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 deed

Thoughts and luck etc :)
Is anyone else going by chance haha?

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Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

(I dropped sylvan library because I have enough card advantage and wanted to interact more)
(My friend persuaded me back on a couple of liliana simply cause it's so versatile and a TNN answer, that said with myth realized and tokens running around, I figured the third should be a catch all council's)

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Sylvan Library isn't just about card advantage. It's about consistency, dig power, and the ability to run away with games you don't deserve to win simply because you have a Library and they don't. Plus, not being a creature makes it exceptionally hard to deal with, and it can serve as a solid foundation even in the more average games.

Also, judging by your saying "tokens", I'm assuming Maelstrom Pulse was the card you were looking for?

Ive really liked Council's so far in testing. Good luck! :)

IoK should be Thetapy when you have that many souls.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

So I'm going to kyoto tomorrow for the GP
This is the 75 I'm looking to take, some slots I'm still pondering over though.
(I dropped sylvan library because I have enough card advantage and wanted to interact more)
(My friend persuaded me back on a couple of liliana simply cause it's so versatile and a TNN answer, that said with myth realized and tokens running around, I figured the third should be a catch all council's)

[snip]

Thoughts and luck etc :)
Is anyone else going by chance haha?

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Honestly, @AMiamajellydonut is spot-on with his comments. While I've been running Dark Maverick with great success, I think a lot of my observations translate over to Junk as well. First, I am not a fan of Lingering Souls. It's slow (daze, pierce, FoW) and there are too many bolts in the American meta (lightning, chain, forked). The combo deck right now don't care if you have 1/1 flyers (with or without equipment). They usually win through anything you put on the field with Emrakul/Storm/critical mass of Hoof'ed Elves. If the expected meta is different for Kyoto, disregard what I'm saying. I would run with at least 1 (preferably 2) top-of-deck fixers like Top or Library. Second, Junk colors live and die by the topdeck. Sylvan is disgustingly powerful against all the blue aggro decks. SFM and Delver archetypes are relying on next to zero countermagic. So if top/library gets counterspell'ed in some capacity, they are likely pitching a cantrip to force it or they attempt to daze the card. Top is equally nuts, but as it's been mentioned countless times on TheSource the ways these cards help are slightly different (I'll gloss over this discussion intentionally). Once either of the aforementioned "fixers" are active, you can take control of future draws and prosper. Third, you could run Deluge in place of Liliana in the MD to take advantage of a token-infested metagame. I really like Liliana but if you're expecting to face swarms all day, she's better in the board. Deluge is one of the most powerful cards to run right now and resets the board at will. This will also help your elves and DnT matches G1. In terms of threats, the current meta favors KotR so much. Everyone rolls their eyes at her but I'm consistently seeing my knights in maverick be 5/5 and above by turn 3 or 4. Personally, I'd straight swap 3 Souls for 3 KotR or 2 KotR and a GSZ. Knight-fetching for Karakas also becomes a viable route in your maindeck. I think a gameplan of sweepers accented by Goyf and KotR would help a lot. Best of luck regardless of your 75.

8 fetch
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Savanah
2 Scrubland
1 Treetop --> Karakas
3 Wasteland (color consistency more important unless you're comfortable)
/22

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Bob
2 SFM
/16

1 Jitte
1 Sword of X&Y / Batterskull
4 Thoughtsieze
2 IoK
2 Top / Library
1 M. Pulse / Golgari Charm
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
/21

15 SB

Coincidentally, I'm with Warden 100% on what he added. Though I do believe "tokens!" to be a misguided fear.

I don't usually say much about Lingering Souls though because I know it's a soft spot and I know it usually takes heartbreaking moments to properly understand. It's just... Slow. And if that's your cup of tea, great, but bear in mind that Lingering Souls should be supplemental to a deck that's suited to grind.

Thanks for the prompt feedback peoples, much appreciated :)

So all though I agree on what sylvan library does, my thoughts were that paying 2 mana for something that doesn't at all interact with the game, is not that appealing when everyone is can tripping around delvers and combo decks. I do love the card, believe me haha. And any card I would play instead of it is just as useful in top deck mode.

My defense of souls is that, without it we don't have any fliers, meaning we can never block a delver, or get past board stalls. Souls plus sword of fire and ice is the easiest way to beat miracle. It also blanks all the targetted removal in the format to some extent.

That said ill brain storm some builds without it today, and see if prefer the gains. Though I'd probably be adding 2 library's and an IoK or liliana. And then I'm just afraid that I won't be able to reliably equip things onto a creature.

IoK instead of cabal therapy because
A) I want to cast my turn 1 discard on turn 1 to clear a path for my 2 drop threat. That doesn't work when swtp, bolt and daze etc all answer that equally well.
B) I just haven't had much success with it anyway, I probably need far more practice with it, and I recognise that.

I really don't like knight, I've tried it so many times, and played against it so many times, and always found it essentially irrelevant.

Finally, I did try a toxic deluge version of junk nic fit with UR delver was all the rage, and I like the idea of including one or 2 main deck. That would be sweet.

(Councils over pulse because it isn't the tokens that you want to kill but the thing that's making them usually, which liliana can't do was my point. That councils can take care of TNN and Emrakul obviously gives it the nod over pulse)

You can't rely off topdeck. Lands ensure that all bets on the topdeck will lose. But Sylvan Library ensures that any future rolls on the topdeck will always come up heads. And it breaks those boardstalls you're so desperate to beat with Lingering Souls. That being said, you are correct in that Library doesn't have immediate "oomf", which is why all competitive decks that aren't constructed by Matt run a maximum of two.


Why are you trying to block Delver? Anyway, the problem with Souls is that, much like your gripe with Sylvan Library, it doesn't have "oomf". If you cast a Dark Confidant, your opponent has to kill it. If you cast a Thoughtseize, it will fuck with your opponent. If you cast a Stoneforge Mystic, your opponent cannot let it untap. If you cast a Lingering Souls, well, congratulations. You just clogged the board.

The ability to dictate the actions and pace of the game matter quite a great deal, and Lingering Souls doesn't give your opponent any immediate pause. Oh, sure, if they don't have a Deathrite or something, it'll be a bitch. But from the time you cast it till five turns later, your opponent doesn't have to give a single fuck. That's a lot of breathing room. And it's the same problem our aging Tarmogoyf has.


Preferring Inquisition of Kozilek over Cabal Therapy is perfectly normal and fine. They do different things. Preferring X to Knight of the Reliquary is also fine. It's a phenomenal creature, but its application can feel limited if not in the right environment.


If you're trying to get rid of an Emrakul with Council's Judgment, you've clearly let the game go too far. In a question of tokens and random blow-out vs True-Name Nemesis and Batterskull, the latter clearly takes precedence. However, the distinction is seldom relevant whereas double white will consistently be a pain in the ass.

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Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

Thanks for the prompt feedback peoples, much appreciated :)

So all though I agree on what sylvan library does, my thoughts were that paying 2 mana for something that doesn't at all interact with the game, is not that appealing when everyone is can tripping around delvers and combo decks. I do love the card, believe me haha. And any card I would play instead of it is just as useful in top deck mode.

My defense of souls is that, without it we don't have any fliers, meaning we can never block a delver, or get past board stalls. Souls plus sword of fire and ice is the easiest way to beat miracle. It also blanks all the targetted removal in the format to some extent.

That said ill brain storm some builds without it today, and see if prefer the gains. Though I'd probably be adding 2 library's and an IoK or liliana. And then I'm just afraid that I won't be able to reliably equip things onto a creature.

IoK instead of cabal therapy because
A) I want to cast my turn 1 discard on turn 1 to clear a path for my 2 drop threat. That doesn't work when swtp, bolt and daze etc all answer that equally well.
B) I just haven't had much success with it anyway, I probably need far more practice with it, and I recognise that.

I really don't like knight, I've tried it so many times, and played against it so many times, and always found it essentially irrelevant.

Finally, I did try a toxic deluge version of junk nic fit with UR delver was all the rage, and I like the idea of including one or 2 main deck. That would be sweet.

(Councils over pulse because it isn't the tokens that you want to kill but the thing that's making them usually, which liliana can't do was my point. That councils can take care of TNN and Emrakul obviously gives it the nod over pulse)

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I'll stand behind the list I posted earlier and also continue to agree with @iamajellydonut. Sylvan Library's effect is probably the best thing the deck can do with green (even better than goyf anf DRS). It's at worst a sensei's top you get on the house every turn. When necessary, you take 4 (and sometimes 8) to ensure you're ahead in ammunition. Like I mentioned above, if you don't want Library go SDT. You need some amount of topdeck "fixers". These fixers keep the card quality up (which is all you need vs cantrips). Let those decks durdle all day. Ensuring you can drop business spells all day.

Regarding Souls, no offense, I think you're playing things wrong. I find LS too slow but if you're hellbent on running them them....don't use them to block delvers. You have a ton of removal (minimum 4 STP, 4 Decay plus Liliana, etc). Against Miracles, I'd rather go with walkers and bank on Lilianas/Garruks in the board. A maindeck Pulse/Golgari Charm is also a nice touch.

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If you're trying to get rid of an Emrakul with Council's Judgment, you've clearly let the game go too far. In a question of tokens and random blow-out vs True-Name Nemesis and Batterskull, the latter clearly takes precedence. However, the distinction is seldom relevant whereas double white will consistently be a pain in the ass.

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The truth right here. Shred their hand so their big toys never come out. Blow up any and everything. Deluge can kill off anything, hence the suggestion.

Regarding Council's, I didn't mean that im relying on it to get rid of emrakul, who thinks that haha?
I was just saying the fact that it does, and pulse doesnt, can be relevant. Yes celestial is harder to cast, but the fact that it hits TNN gives it the nod for me.

Regarding souls, I guess you've convinced me haha. I'm slightly worried that without it I'll be able to equip less reliably, since we don't have a TNN, and I've never registered a JUNK deck without souls #shedtear, but I'll try it. If I come back home from Kyoto crying... I've added the 2nd treetop to help (the amount of times I've equipped sword to that guy is awesome)

So revised list:

4 Verd Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh flats
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
2 Scrubland
2 Treetop
4 Wasteland
23

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goyf
4 Bob
3 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 Thoughtsieze
2 IoK
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Library
2 Liliana
1 Council's Judgment
37
60

2 Surgical
2 ? (Do I actually need needle? I only use it agains miracles and dredge.. Sneak and show is on the decline I'm favor of OmniTell which it doesn't do anything against..Some time reanimator on grisel, maybe another teeg and canonist/Thalia is better or duress or hymn??)
2 containment priest
2 canonist
2 Thalia
2 Teeg
2 Toxic Deluge
1 deed

You want Needle or Grip...or both.

I reallly don't follow the reasoning on grip, I guess it hits top counter balance and omniscience.
Needle obviously doesn't stop omniscience, but grip still let's then cast one spell.. Needle does have random applications like dredge and lands. As well as jace.

I guess grip is also good against equipment, but I don't have enough cards to take out in those matchups, I usually take out 2-3 IoKs for a number of deluges and deeds.

Could you sell me on it briefly Matt? I guess 2 needles is fine, 1 needle and 1 grip could be ok too.

Cheers guys/gals

A couple of friends suggested cutting the second library for the 3rd liliana, magic is hard haha

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Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

I reallly don't follow the reasoning on grip, I guess it hits top counter balance and omniscience.
Needle obviously doesn't stop omniscience, but grip still let's then cast one spell.. Needle does have random applications like dredge and lands. As well as jace.

I guess grip is also good against equipment, but I don't have enough cards to take out in those matchups, I usually take out 2-3 IoKs for a number of deluges and deeds.

Could you sell me on it briefly Matt? I guess 2 needles is fine, 1 needle and 1 grip could be ok too.

Cheers guys/gals

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Needle handles Jace, Griselbrand, Sneak, Top, etc. etc. Grip hits Top, Blood Moon, Counterbalance, Omni, etc. etc. Both are good against Miracles. Needle is likely slightly better.

-Matt

Also, should I just add people on Facebook so they can just message me before a tournament and get an instant reply? :P

Pithing Needle is just so generally useful that unless you specifically have a reason not to run it, you should always just insta-cram one into your sideboard. Though I don't feel like there's a need for a second unless you have a good enough reason like Reanimator and 12 Post do.

Krosan Grip is good, and if you can fit it, definitely do, but it's by no means mandatory. Just a very nice catch-all that's recommended so long as you can swing it unless you can tweak your deck to the point where it's unnecessary.

Sylvan Library, while necessary and fucking amazing, gets significantly worse with each copy you add because it doesn't play well in multiples and it doesn't have the "oomf" that was discussed earlier. The general preferred number is two. Some people play more. Some people can get away with less. I generally prefer two in any deck that doesn't have as good of consistency or card selection, but I wouldn't fault you for going to one.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Also, should I just add people on Facebook so they can just message me before a tournament and get an instant reply? :P

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That's assuming that anyone would ever willingly befriend Canadian scum.

The daggers are real.