[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

Related Time spiral in TES:

Well I believe that the Reasoning Line is the following:

"Now that in TES you play Permanent lands and an increased Land Count and is slower therefore there is more chances to reach a 3 mana scenario - for this scenario - T.Spiral is not that bad. and for this scenario T.S. is better than D.Returns in terms of mana efficiency"

I can not disagree on this.

In my 12 Lands Gemstones Build I absolutly prefer D.Returns,
BUT for example this list:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10493&iddeck=76528

won in a single tournament 10 or 12 match ups loosing uniquely 1 AND plays 1 T.Spiral in side. Sure this is not TES.

Thanks Lem for your opinión, but G.Tutor in side is something I've not tested yet. although I need to agree on each statement you mentioned...
The first testing doens't seem so bad....
I made some plays with a B.W in hand.
something I love is to C.Mox , Land > B.Wish for Grim Tutor > Win on next turn. this is not that bad.

On the other hand I'm happy with my D.R. I just want to test something different ;). Joke.

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

Related Time spiral in TES:

Well I believe that the Reasoning Line is the following:

"Now that in TES you play Permanent lands and an increased Land Count and is slower therefore there is more chances to reach a 3 mana scenario - for this scenario - T.Spiral is not that bad. and for this scenario T.S. is better than D.Returns in terms of mana efficiency"

I can not disagree on this.

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The argument is still absurd, because it not only ignores the fact, that the deck isn't made to go the long run (Moxen, RoF, etc.), but also never mentions the problems occuring if you wield your opponent a fresh grip. Funnily, the same aspects are also totally ignored in the thread on the german board. It's like playing Enter the Infinite in the SB just because the deck is 40% mana. :)

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

Thanks Lem for your opinión, but G.Tutor in side is something I've not tested yet. although I need to agree on each statement you mentioned...
The first testing doens't seem so bad....
I made some plays with a B.W in hand.
something I love is to C.Mox , Land > B.Wish for Grim Tutor > Win on next turn. this is not that bad.

On the other hand I'm happy with my D.R. I just want to test something different ;). Joke.

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I doubt it is worth testing based on pure theory-crafting of the craze to pay 3 life and 5 mana to gain access to AN. Your example is far-fetched imo: you 2-for-1 yourself with Mox and still have 8 mana + Grim for your next turn (once more ignoring all possible defense) and going to AN with one less Mox in the deck and 3 life less. Why do you, if you can win next turn with grim as you have all the mana, not simply wish for Goblins instead and ignore all variance involving AN-flips or topdecked hate?

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

given that the cruiseless meta led to a return of DRS, and maverick/Dnt are decks that do pop up, the idea of taking out EtW for Cabal Ritual seems pretty unattractive, imo. If anything, I was running Cabals and no EtW IN the cruise meta, because aggressive combo decks, CB, and reanimator were terrible for EtW, and Cabal Ritual to ignore Daze was great against Delver

edit: also, the cruiseless meta shifts us back to the sb tutor as there is no way to draw cards with wish otherwise :/ unless you want awkward cards like dim ret, or weird bad ones like night's whisper

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With Miracles running rampant, I'm not sure Empty the Warrens is very reliable.
And if we want, we can always put two in the sideboard, so we can board one in when needed.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Wish ANT can get away with playing the Grim Tutor on side because it generates more mana than TES utilising Cabal Rituals. TES generates less mana than ANT, but does so faster. That's why Empty the Warrens, for instance, is so much better in TES than it is in ANT. Grim Tutor is the slowest and most mana hungry Wish target wincon ever played in competitive Legacy, and as such it doesn't belong in TES. [/personal opinion]

@Lem: Spiral in TES? Really? I can imagine your frown when you read about that. :eek: I can think of at least six reasons why Diminishing Returns is better in TES, and most of us don't even play that one. I tried Spiral in my Doomsday list and ended up cutting it because it sucked, and that's the Tendrils list where it should fit best.

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Spiral in doomsday is great.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

With Miracles running rampant, I'm not sure Empty the Warrens is very reliable.
And if we want, we can always put two in the sideboard, so we can board one in when needed.

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G1 EtW is better than most give it credit for, esp since g1 you have no EE/Decay/Pyro to hit CB. I'd rather gamble against their Terminus than their CBs g1, as they have fewer of them on average, esp with natural EtW being so solid against their counters g1 (no flusterstorm). If you want two EtW, you probably should just run 1 main as it makes your sb Tutor and general matchup composition stronger all-around.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

I went to The Tales of Adventure Eternal Extravangza 2 this past weekend, I think it was a productive event. I certainly feel my record doesn’t reflect the decklist.

4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

As for the decklist, I was really disappointed with Needle and never once wanted Massacre. I also wanted Grapeshot a few times, even against the Esperblade deck I can remember thinking it might’ve been useful in one of the lines I was considering. I want a third Xantid Swarm, still unsure about the other slots.

EDIT: Just realized I didn't do sideboarding, but I'm feeling lazy. I sided in Thoughtseize a decent amount of the time in non-blue matches.

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I forgot to ask this before, Bryant, how are you liking the main deck you have listed here? I notice you dropped the Misty for another Mire and I'm wondering how you feel about the lack of island access vs the worth of 7 swamp fetches + whatever bluffing value it might have. another thing i'm curious about, to anyone running roughly this list, is how youve all been liking basics + 2 C. Mox with 4 Tutor main.

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

G1 EtW is better than most give it credit for, esp since g1 you have no EE/Decay/Pyro to hit CB. I'd rather gamble against their Terminus than their CBs g1, as they have fewer of them on average, esp with natural EtW being so solid against their counters g1 (no flusterstorm). If you want two EtW, you probably should just run 1 main as it makes your sb Tutor and general matchup composition stronger all-around.

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I tend to get Terminused when I go for Empty game one, but sitting around waiting for a Tendrils approach indeed runs the risk of running into a Counterbalance lock. I haven't extensively tested it, but my experience scares me away from Empty the Warrens. Maybe Empty is a better gamble game one, and maybe I just have to get over it. :tongue:

Hi guys!after playing ANT for a couple of months,I decide to go back to TES for the next tournament this sunday...

I'll play the same main as the first page,but i have some doubt on the sb...i don't like pithing needle,so i think my sb will be something like this:

1 Bayou
3 abrupt decay
3 Xantid swarm
1 Tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 past in flames
1 void snare
1 pyroclasm
1 thoughtseize

And i have 2 free slots...i was thinking of playing 1 chain of vapor and 1 massacre/grapeshot/2nd pyroclasm,what do you think?

PS:I fully agree with wonderPreaux about g1 warrens against miracles

I have won many games vs miracles just because of warrens after balamce. Its a plan that happens sometimes.

And lately I have lost 2 games be ause not having grapeshot. So im happy to have it back in and will play it for sure.

Could someone point me to the page number (roughly) were people started forgoing rainbow lands completely for the ANT-esque mana base?

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

I tend to get Terminused when I go for Empty game one, but sitting around waiting for a Tendrils approach indeed runs the risk of running into a Counterbalance lock. I haven't extensively tested it, but my experience scares me away from Empty the Warrens. Maybe Empty is a better gamble game one, and maybe I just have to get over it. :tongue:

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Well, here's the other thing: if you rarely go for EtW, but get terminus'd "often", how often is it really? if you do it enough, your sample size will shift you away from positive/negative variance and towards the true mean, which I would tend to think of as lower than the average amount of time a CB just drops on you g1. Moreover, we're talking about a MD EtW here, which means it's most relevant for a 4, or 6 (or, i suppose, 8) mana line. These relatively low-cost lines can be so important.

For instance, if the opponent is on the play and leads Island (or hey, even Tundra to make it worse) > Top, what do you do? Even if you have a Duress, a CB can come down off their top/Top with you having no ability to interact. It's way more likely that there's a floating CB/Counter in their top 5 than it is a Terminus, so I'd just run in the Goblins for a 2-turn kill (especially for island > Top, obv). Discarding a Terminus/Brainstorm from their hand can be just as good as discarding CB, as you're relegating their outs to their draws off the top, same deal, except you've managed to do the hard part of comboing off already. What better chance do you have on the draw game 1? You have to get lucky either way, may as well ask to just fade 1 particular card off their top/Top as opposed to hoping they have no CB/Clique/counters etc.

It's also worth noting that tying up the Miracle players resources by sending them on a chase to find a Terminus can give you the opportunity to do other things too, like build up a mini-Tendrils or, if everyone is interested in it again, Grapeshot. One of my fondest memories of this deck, in terms of positive variance, is just getting down 4 goblins and beating a Miracles player down while I assembled a mini-Tendrils behind it. It's sort of like that old Starcraft strategy: expand behind your attacks. While they fight off my Goblins, which can potentially win, I set up more disruption/comboes, which can also potentially win. Especially game 1, I dont think I want to wait around, because their late game potentially and inevitability far outshines mine.

TL;DR I don't play TES to keep my Warrens full

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

(a lot of stuff you can read in the post above)

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You make fair points. I do really like the good Ad Nauseam that list gives me though. It feels really strong overall. Putting Empty back puts me into a difficult place: what do I cut? Should I keep the Cabal Rits now? Hmm...

On a completely unrelated note: Max, what happened to your Twitch? All your past broadcasts are gone, and I haven't seen a notification of you going live in weeks.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

You make fair points. I do really like the good Ad Nauseam that list gives me though. It feels really strong overall. Putting Empty back puts me into a difficult place: what do I cut? Should I keep the Cabal Rits now? Hmm...

On a completely unrelated note: Max, what happened to your Twitch? All your past broadcasts are gone, and I haven't seen a notification of you going live in weeks.

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I don't think the ad nauseam is actually that much better, tbh. For example, when i was running cabal rits over EtW, the other card i cut was Chrome Mox. So, the avg cmc is the same, just distributed over 2 cards, and i have 2 "ok" hits off ad nauseam as opposed to 1 good and 1 bad hit. it's just that the EtW seemed worse overall, so ritual was a fair trade up in power, especially in cruise format where it could easily get threshold and being able to play though daze and do better PiF loops won you the game a lot of the time against delver variants (the important lesson there being that part of the appeal of cabal was totally unrelated to ad nauseam). as for cabal ritual, idk if i wanna be playing them in a format of fast combo and drs right now.

re: twitch, what happened there is that my past broadcasts disappear every two weeks, and I'm only just now finishing up finals which were proceeded by two large projects. I will be streaming this week, though.

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Originally Posted by nevilshute

Could someone point me to the page number (roughly) were people started forgoing rainbow lands completely for the ANT-esque mana base?

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Hard question. Summer 2014 for me, I guess. No clue what this means for pages.

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

re: twitch, what happened there is that my past broadcasts disappear every two weeks, and I'm only just now finishing up finals which were proceeded by two large projects. I will be streaming this week, though.

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Could you try to stop that from happening? I watch your broadcasts in playback because I usually don't have time when people go live, and when they disappear it's kind of a bummer. :tongue: You should be able to keep them in the list. Joe Lossett also has broadcasts listed that go way back. Or should I say two months back. Maybe it's an option you can select somewhere in your profile.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Could you try to stop that from happening? I watch your broadcasts in playback because I usually don't have time when people go live, and when they disappear it's kind of a bummer. :tongue: You should be able to keep them in the list. Joe Lossett also has broadcasts listed that go way back. Or should I say two months back. Maybe it's an option you can select somewhere in your profile.

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I believe that is an ability he has as a twitch partner, keeping broadcasts up for 2 months. by default, past broadcasts aren't saved at all.

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

I believe that is an ability he has as a twitch partner, keeping broadcasts up for 2 months. by default, past broadcasts aren't saved at all.

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what´s your name on twitch ? and what time you usally stream?

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Originally Posted by Ancestral

what´s your name on twitch ? and what time you usally stream?

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same name as here. though, you oughtta PM me about thus sort of thing, it clutters the thread otherwise.

has anyone gotten to testing with Grapeshot yet? idk how much removal you want to be packing, between decays, snare, pyro/massacre/grapeshot, it feels like we have an awful lot just for midrange/aggro, which i feel like we should be able to race

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

same name as here. though, you oughtta PM me about thus sort of thing, it clutters the thread otherwise.

has anyone gotten to testing with Grapeshot yet? idk how much removal you want to be packing, between decays, snare, pyro/massacre/grapeshot, it feels like we have an awful lot just for midrange/aggro, which i feel like we should be able to race

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The main problem is that all those options to remove annoying permanents harm your mana-development (colorwise) and/or expose you to various Landdestruction (Stifle, Wasteland, Port, etc.) at the same time. It goes that far, that I don't even consider the red sweepers like Pyroclasm to be fitting alongside Basic lands, the reason why I was/am desperately looking for decent solutions in black/blue. Hell, even Marsh Casulties looked appealing for a certain time lol

I think there's a real failure with how people understand the functionality of these sideboard slots. If you're siding in Grapeshot, Void Snare, Pyroclasm and Thoughtseize you're not siding in Bayou and Abrupt Decay. I rarely side in Decay unless it's against Miracles or some sort of Chalice/Prison type deck. I prefer the first selection of cards against decks like Maverick or Death and Taxes because it's not as taxing on our manabase.

As for Peter's comments, I disagree completely. I've been on the basics for a while now and very, very rarely have color issues - honestly, I can only think of a single scenario in the last few months and I play quite a bit. Siding in Pyroclasm and Grapeshot do not effect the manabase, fetching for Volcanic, even if it does get wasted leaves you with over 11-13 initial red mana sources still in the deck.