The Rock and its Junk descendants have been played since long before Stoneforge Mystic existed.Quote:
Originally Posted by useL
I don't play SFM in this deck.
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The Rock and its Junk descendants have been played since long before Stoneforge Mystic existed.Quote:
Originally Posted by useL
I don't play SFM in this deck.
I am working with this:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Gaddock Teeg
ENCHANTMENTS (3)
2 Sylvan Library
1 Choke
SORCERIES (8)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lingering Souls
INSTANTS (6)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
ARTIFACTS (2)
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (22)
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
Cards I've had in the list and cut includes Siege Rhino, Life from the Loam, Eternal Witness, Council's Judgment. The board looks like this at the moment:
1 Life from the Loam
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
2 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council’s Judgment
Cards I am interested in looking at in the near future are Monastery Mentor (cabal therapy replacement, works quite well with the tops). I am unsure if I should have Council's Judgment or Zealous Persecution in the board now that I have double Lingering Souls against miracles in the main.
I recently revisited my list and play something similar to useL. I love the Courser + Top + Library engine.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Siege Rhino
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Bitterblossom
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire & Ice
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Karakas
I definitely want to cut Tasigur, he's just not as good here as in blue decks that fill the GY faster. I think I also want to cut Therapy, it's basically there to mise wins vs. combo but I think I'd rather just have Hymn more times than not. On the other hand, without Tas and already with playing a top-of-library engine Bob could creep back in too. Will have to test both but leaning toward Hymn to help vs. combo.
I am considering picking up Goyfs, but I feel like our creatures should do something besides attack and block and die to removal. I guess I could see going in useL's direction and playing Goyf over SFM, but SFM + tokens is a key way to grind out games. In fact, I am playing Solemn Visitor as my PW because the flying tokens can carry equipment nicely (and they also beat -1 effects). Would definitely board Lord of Innistrad though because that might be the best card in the game against the Miracles deck (Teeg is close, but harder to protect).
Finally, I like Bitterblossom over Souls for a few reasons:
-Coming down turn 2 is huge. Against combo decks, you basically get your clock started earlier without having to tap out on turn 3 for 2 1/1s. I'd much rather be GSZing for teeg or pridemage on that turn, or playing DRS + hymn, or something like that.
-Not affected by GY hate. While yes, them paying 2 mana to RIP your Souls down to a Midnight Haunting isn't the worst, Deathrite Shaman is a real jerk against Souls.
-Doesn't evaporate to Terminus.
-You get the life back with SSV or Jitte or Skull or Courser.
I am trying to make some time to test this deck but I do think it has a puncher's chance.
useL, why choke mainboard? I know it can be a bomb when it's a bomb but if I was going to play a blue-hate enchantment main Carpet of Flowers seems much better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
1. Lingering Souls is a way to beat Miracles, Bitterblossom is another. I do believe that they are good at different things and I would never keep Lingering Souls in vs combo because it is simply too slow. We can agree that they do the same thing, create creatures "uncounterable" vs control decks and chump vs aggro. I like souls because I play 4 bob and take some damage allready, on top of that the souls from a topdeck at turn 7 creates 4 power instantly while Bitterblossom takes 2 whole turns before they deal the first point of damage.
2. I play without the following strong cards Stoneforge Mystic, Green Sun's Zenith and silverbullets like QP or SylvanSafekeeper. This makes my deck a different take that also makes it faster because of the less clunky 4-5 drops that other lists play. I see the list as a BUG delver list without the bad cards as daze and with strong cards like StP. Which brings me to your second question about choke, I have no use for Carpet in my list I feel. There is no great zeniths to be casted. And when you are in a topdeck war against miracles it doesnt matter if you have 5 or 9 mana available as long as they have their board intact. I want a fighting chance against Terminus and various CB/Top-Blade decks and Choke allows that.
Thank you so far for the useful comments, makes me think harder on card choices.
Yeah, you're obviously going for a more aggro Junk build, like 2009/2010 era, and I don't think that's a bad thing in the meta. Another possible thing to think about it Sculler, since he's pressure and hand disruption, and if I were to replace something in the deck, it would be the Coursers (since they're more controlling than disruptive). Choke COULD also turn into Thoughtseize #4 or Cabal Therapy #1, which is good since you have Souls and such. Or, it could be a walker like: Elspeth, Garruk Relentless, Lord of Innistrad, or something like that.
Also, depending on how many Loam decks you expect to face, Surgical may just be better as Extirpate (slower in every other matchup, I agree, but depends what you're looking to nuke, right?). I think Jitte COULD be Zealous Persecution, but perhaps it is more likely CJ. CJ does hit Jace, but, if you're looking to kill TNN's and pump your stuff, ZP is prime. Plus, an edge against the Pyro decks would be nice. Grixis is the second highest performing deck between Miracles and Omni. With 2 Jitte/2 ZP in the board, that should be PRIME against all those 1/1's, as well as people playing DnT, Elves, etc. Against Jace, you still have Needle and your Choke, not to mention Teeg and Lingering Souls, and who knows? Maybe a walker/Bitterblossom.
-Matt
Did some playtesting tonight against BUG Delver and Miracles. Just a few thoughts before they vanish in the mist. Changed a few cards (now play 2 lingering main and some changes to SB -1 jitte +1 zp)
http://www.svenskamagic.com/deckbox/index.php?ID=182514
The BUG Delver matchup seems like a cake walk. Permanents that he needs to answer like Choke, Sylvan, Top and creatures that stands up to his deck quite well. The souls are stellar vs his liliana and counterspells to buy time and I run two more removal than he does (2 STP) plus all the card filtering that he needs cantrips to do the same thing as. One or two turns where he draws a Daze or a delver that doesnt flip and the game would most often swing in my favour. The courser filtering and card advantage plus lifegain vs his delver beats was quite excellent. 6-1 in games
The miracles matchup felt quite allright. Hymn and Thoughtseize to clear the way for Sylvan and Bob and then annoying cards like souls that he cant counter. I love to play cards that pose a threat to swing the game entirely vs his deck. Landing bob, choke, sylvan or finding a gaddock teeg felt nice. Granted we did not sideboard but I really feel that the match will swing even further in my favour once I get to bring in cards like choke and needle/councils judgment while he gets to bring in 1-2 removal spells (councils judgment and wear//tear) feels quite nice. 5-2 in games
Right now the list feels quite strong and I would not like to change alot. Next playtesting session will be against Omnishow and DnT. Maybe next week.
I like the list with hymn. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about a MD choke...I'd personally opt for a vindicate or m.pulse. Again, souls is not my cup of tea, but if it's been working -- all the power to ya.Quote:
Originally Posted by useL
2 questions I ask for real (ie; not trolling or judging you):
1) Why not Vindicate over CJ? Is the shroud situation relevant (Mongoose, Emrakul, Thrun, TNN as the only serious threats I can think of)
2) How are you literally playing the Miracles matchup? Anything with Junk I just shit the bed past turn 1, where I can sometimes land DRS or thoughtseize. I'm curious if you're slamming discard into Liliana or just racing with a lone goyf backed by sylvan.
I play quite a few dead cards main deck depending what deck I play against. Against combo I have 6 dead cards (4 abrupt decay and 2 swords) on top of the slow creatures that are "semi-dead". Against some decks you might argue that other cards are dead (against UR Delver for instance thoughtseize and dark confidant are kind of bad). Considering this and the filtering I am able to do when I have top or sylvan in play I figured I could play one bomb that completely shuts down island-decks or atleast buys me a whole lot of turns. Often they run a singleton Councils in main and either it is in their GY or they have trouble finding it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
1) Emrakul, TNN and DTT are viable options. Also, Vindicate is quite bad against other cards like Stoneforge Mystic+Batterskull where CJ shines (either they dont get Bskull into play or they get their Bskull exciled). The upside with vindicate is quit stellar, to be able to kill lands. But another rising star on the legacy scene is the 20/20 flyer, it is quite nice to be able to have other outs than 2 swords and lilianaactivations. Even though an instant solution would be better since they always make that guy in end step. Edit: oh and Mother of Runes, Aether Vial and Wirewood Symbiote are another three excellent examples why CJ is better.
2) The card advantage is key. Protect bob/sylvan/top and never deploy more than 2 creatures at the same time. Lingering Souls are great at this since they also pressure jace and Gaddock Teeg actually works wonders once they swords your t1 shaman or t2 bob. If you want I could try to muster up a few videos of me playing against my friend at a later date. I have played miracles for about a year and even at a few bigger tournaments and therefor I have some grasp of their strong suits and weak spots. I can admit that Abrupt Decay came in handy in all games, at one point my first 7 was 2 decay, 1 deathrite, 1 bob and three lands. It is definately a keep since the miracles player often banks on getting card advantage through CB and if they cant they might loose due to that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Personally, I don't like playing anything potentially clunky like SFM and GSZ in this deck. My plan is to be as streamlined as possible, destroy all their stuff, and have huge dudes:Quote:
Originally Posted by useL
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Hymn to Tourach
1x Life from the Loam
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana of the Veil
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
1x Windswept Heath
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Horizon Canopy
4x Wasteland
SB is WIP right now...was playing E-Tutor board but not sure that's the way to go.
The problem with your list, that surely works against fair decks is that it folds to a resolved Terminus unless you have a Sylvan in play. Few threats and too little card filtering with way too many removal cards for this new non-creature meta. If this was three years ago I would probably show up with that list to a GP, now, it simply wont cut it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphix
Not sure I agree with you until we see his/her sideboard. With my Shardless BUG deck I follow Lejay's thinking and play the percentages; build a strong G1 deck which has a greater chance of beating fair decks but, conversely, accept the G1 loss against combo and miracles and move on to G2. (Of course, this tactic assumes you know the majority of your opponents will be playing fair decks. That's still the case pretty much everywhere, right?)Quote:
Originally Posted by useL
But my SB is heavily weighted towards combo/miracles disruption, thereby tilting the odds in my favour for games 2 and 3. It's all about the percentages.
Using an old English figure of speech, the idea is that you don't try to make your G1 deck "a jack of all trades, master of none" because then you may end up with an average deck which has a higher chance of losing G1. Perhaps Seraphix is thinking of playing the same percentage game?
I don't disagree with this. But when you put it this way, why even play The Rock at all? If your plan is to beat Miracles and combo, you probably want Force of Will in your deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by useL
While they provide resilience, I don't like Souls without equipment-they're just too slow of a clock. Also, I've never been sold on Choke as the solution to Miracles, it is a very beatable card for them. Running Top and Library to improve draw quality is an idea I can get behind though.
I follow the same logic simply by convention, but it may not be correct anymore. It is certainly harder to "pre-board" against combo when you aren't playing Brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Hate_Counterspells
I want to say the overall meta is vulnerable to discard. I'm thinking playing 2 of TS/IoK/Hymn. That's where Rock wants to be right now IMHO. Everything competitive shits the bed against double discard turn 1 + turn 2 (especially if you can hymn turn 2). The question, as others note, is whether Liliana is worth running. Is she? Liliana is just so "meh" vs whatever you'd consider the current blend of decks in the meta to be. Creature decks just swarm her. Combo doesn't really give a shit about her. Miracles works under her assuming top is in play (based on my awful experiences, it will be a solid % of the time).
I'm serious about this discard talk too. I think Rock just needs to come out swinging with serious pressure turn 1, 2, and 3 almost like Jund. Sure, discard in the late-game gets progressively worse. I think we need to re-evaluate getting that deep into games in the first place.
Discard is good at fueling Dig through Time. I agree it's "good," but it also fuels the way they get out of your discard strategy, making it a tad awkward especially in the Omni matchup. You need it, but you REALLY hate to have to have it. You board all that shit out against most of the other DTT decks, and against Miracles, they're only running 1-2.
Philipp and I agree that Jund/Junk is the best matchup against Miracles right now, but not necessary against the rest of the meta (because that deck is Miracles, at least Philipp says, and I tend to agree). With a combination of hatebears and such, Miracles has a tough time dealing with certain threats, like Thrun, Sylvan, Teeg, Souls, walkers, etc. The problem is that if you don't stick a Sylvan or a Confidant and ride that fucker as hard as you can, you get murdered by their virtual and real card advantage. Discard means less in this matchup when they're playing 12 cantrips to find their business. Obviously taking Top on turn 1 is great, but them being able to assemble it again soon is rough stuff, too.
SFM may be "clunky," but it gives your flyers an edge and it quickens the clock. Remember, if you're wanting to pressure with one guy, equipment is going to be the best way to protect and do it. Tarmogoyf isn't so good against a deck with 4 STP, 3-4 Snapcaster, and 4 Terminus, along with many, many ways to find it all. However, something with a Sword of Light and Shadow goes a long way, as Philipp and I have discussed.
Nic Fit has a problem in that its main ramp engine is what Miracles wants to do, but the threats you want to go into are ideal. Big walkers, Deeds, and evasive threats like Stormbreath Dragon and such. I'm preparing for Lille now that exams are over, so I'm going back and forth on what to play. LIKELY Jund Nic Fit is the "right" call with the blue meta, but experience is key in large tournaments, so I may opt for Junk Nic Fit with Slaughter Games. I think Reanimator is an EXCELLENT meta call right now, so we'll see.
CREATURES (16)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Stoneforge Mystic
ENCHANTMENTS (3)
3 Sylvan Library
SORCERIES (9)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lingering Souls
1 Green Sun's Zenith
INSTANTS (7)
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
ARTIFACTS (4)
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
LANDS (22)
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
Here, we've got a good mix of everything. A little of this, a little of that. No Pulse makes me a tiny bit sad, but whatever. Gotta do what you've got to do.
I think that Canonist may have to make its way back in just due to Omni. Fuck, I hate that matchup. Sculler is pretty sweet. Teeg is a gem in the Miracles matchup, though. I'm tempted to shove in a walker or Bitterblossom, though.
The main players in the metagame are:
1) Miracles
2) Omni
3) Grixis Delver
4) Various flavours of Delver/Stoneforge Mystic decks
5) ANT/TES Storm
6) Everyone else
We already have a decent play against most of the other fair decks, like Delver and Stoneforge Mystic, so our sideboard has to reflect beating Combo, Miracles, and the "everyone else."
//SIDEBOARD
2 Zealous Persecution (Elves, DnT, TNN, and Grixis Delver are going to show up in droves at a European Legacy event).
2 Gaddock Teeg (because Miracles, Combo, and incidentally hating on random stuff seems good)
2 Krosan Grip (because fuck you Omni/Miracles. MUD is seeing increased play because it shits on the Top 3 guys, let's fuck them up)
2 Pithing Needle (because fuck you Miracles/Sneak/Griselbrand/etc.)
2 Choke (Blue, go die now plez)
2 Tidehollow Sculler (Combo)
2 Ethersworn Canonist (Combo)
The last slot is tough. A possible call is just something like Deed, EE, Golgari Charm, Bitterblossom, another walker, Surgical, etc. I really don't know what to put here. Timely Reinforcements is nice in many matchups, and helps hedge against randoms with Burn and the like.
@sdematt: If you're opting for 2 ZP as your catch-all sweeper, I'd suggest Toxic Deluges instead. Despite costing 1 more it can nuke x/2 or x/3, which in my experiences meant surviving or dying. I like Garruk or Elspeth in the board. Some like Sorrin. The only thing I caution is how your build hedges its bets on disruption. Should a deck land jace or some stupid permanent, you have no way of eliminating it.
MD suggestion I'd swap Library #3 for SDT #2 (balanced 2:2). I know you love 3 Libraries, but try it out. The lone GSZ could be your pulse/vind.
Swords are definitely some of the best cards you can have against Miracles. The only caveat of Swords in non-Blue shells is you need to be running a critical mass of creatures to make them effective. Playing BW Blade was super frustrating for me because I always seemed to be drawing discard when I needed a creature to equip. The problem with upping the creature count and becoming more creature-based and less spell-based is you get destroyed even more by Terminus (look at Maverick).Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
That's why we play lingering souls, and occasionally man landsQuote:
Originally Posted by Seraphix
I found Sword of Light and Shadow abilities quite useless against miracles,
because our creatures are removed or put on the botton
norton and life gain doesnt matter, only white protection is relevant on teeg, but it is hard to do it. I prefer sword of fire and ice, didnt test feast and famine yet.
Well yes, I was playing Souls. While I don't have a lot of experience with it in Legacy, it just seems underwhelming in a lot of other matchups. I'd be happy to be wrong about this though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
Fire and Ice has the best effects but I prefer Light and Shadow against Miracles just because of the pro-White. They can't plow your equipped guy and you can sneak by Angels. I've even tried War and Peace against Miracles to try and get a little of both, I think its worse than Light and Shadow though.Quote:
Originally Posted by datanaga
I feel the need for Collected Company. Is that more of a Maverick card?
EOT get Knight and/or SFM instant speed, possibly keep up with DTT.