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Kavu looks fun. Though if we're considering Kavu, I wonder if it's worth thinking about Murderous Redcap instead? It's not as much damage, and yes 2RR is harder than 3R, but certainly issues tickets on the value train. Pia and Kiran also come to mind.
Double red is the issue with that. If you play double red cc's, I am almost certain you need at least one Plateau and fetches. Don't get value train tickets if you can't pay for it to begin with.
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I have been playing death and taxes for almost 2 years now.
I am not so sure "recruiter of the guard" is the card we need in D&T.
It does give card selection, but vs the decks we need card selection the most it is to slow.
The mayor reason to play recruiter is the recruiter flickerwisp interaction, witch is stomped by any removal spell.
Sanctum prelate is insane and should be at a minimum of 2-3.
Serra avenger is such an effective beater i think we should keep her.
People ought to be required to playtest before posting. This is so not in the realm of possibility. You can't just slot in cards with heavy color requirements into a deck based off colorless mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosque
In Imperial Taxes, Redcap could potentially be used, but that would compete for the Pia and Kiran slot and has a creature type that conflicts with the standard Caverns name.
Using Recruiter to fetch the card you need and playing it a turn later is better than not seeing it at all. D&T doesn't have card selection aside from this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvin
There's also Vial interactions. On turn 3 you can have a Vial on 2, cast Recruiter for a 2 drop, and then Vial it in for free.
I was skeptical of its usefulness too until I played it. Now the only question I have is: how many is best?
So far, as expected, Prelate has been very, very good for me. Playing 3 Prelate / 3 Recruiters / 0 THC at the moment. Beat both Jund and Lands in games where no card other than Prelate on 2 would have done it. It's also been consistently backbreaking vs Delver.
One of Magus has also been strong in the board and Stonecloaker has yet to be bad, though it might ultimately be too cute. Finding myself Recruiting for Flickerwisp a ton.
It really just boils down to this. It'd be more of an issue if we were trying to assemble a stompy deck, but that's not the case. If that's your goal, then I guess a Thalias/Eldrazi hybrid might be the way to go, but I have little doubt that it will ultimately be an inferior deck to DnT. Also, needless to say, the body is far from useless in a deck like this (equipment, chump blocking, gang-blocking, sac effects, chip shots).Quote:
Originally Posted by RobNC
Im only running 2 recruiter, but I've taken the magus out of the main and swapped it for a 3rd maindeck prelate also. Do you still run P+K ? and what have you found for a manabase? if you are?Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I have been running no Plateaus + only one Magus in the board for the time being mostly just to test it, not sold on any build right now. Running 9 Plains / 3 Cavern.
I think Prelate on 1 or 2 is often a comparable game over lockout to Magus vs a lot of the same decks (Lands, Delver) and is also bad vs a lot of the same decks (DnT, Merfolk etc.), so replacing Maguses with Prelates is kinda a wash. Having no Blood Moon main does leave you more open to big mana decks (MUD, Eldrazi, 12 Post) and Infect was also a lot better with Magus/Sparkmage. Was never convinced that the cleaner manabase really mattered, so if I were to add red back in, the bigger issue would mostly be finding spots for Magus, Prelate, Recruiters and at least a few tutorable creatures...lotta cards fighting for spots.
Maybe it ultimately is smarter to play a mix of Prelate/Magus - even though Prelate is really nuts - because you're hedging more on Eldrazi. Mono-W's starting point was a 50-50 matchup with Eldrazi, and now you're just going up on slow (Recruiter) and pretty bad/irrelevant (Prelate) cards and taking out Serra Avengers. Imperial made up for that with free and easy Magus wins.
Pia/Kiran is irreplaceable, and after Magus I think it's the biggest selling point for still playing red. Still haven't played against Miracles with the new build yet, but Prelate over Magus is (at the very least) an upgrade for the Miracles g1, so it's possible the Miracles matchup is just so good right now you don't even need Pia/Kiran. It's too bad the new 'just Pia' card isn't a little more pushed.
Would you mind sharing the list you feel 'most' sold on right now?Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
This is what I've been testing with:
4 Thalia
4 SFM
4 Mom
3 Recruiter
3 Prelate
3 Flickerwisp
2 Revoker
1 Stonecloaker
1 Spirit of the Lab
1 Banisher Priest
4 STP
4 Vial
3 Equip
3 Cavern
3 Karakas
4 Port
4 Wasteland
9 Plains
SB
3 Path
2 RIP
1 SoWaP
2 Ethersworn
1 Magus
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Relic Warder
1 Devout Witness
1 Containment Priest
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Council's Judgment
I think if I were to show up to a big event tomorrow, I would probably play this, though:
4 Thalia
4 SFM
4 Mom
3 Recruiter
3 Prelate
3 Flickerwisp
2 Revoker
1 Magus
1 Relic Warder
1 Banisher Priest
4 STP
4 Vial
3 Equip
3 Cavern
3 Karakas
4 Port
4 Wasteland
3 Fetch
1 Plateau
5 Plains
SB
3 Path
2 RIP
1 Pia/Kiran
2 Ethersworn
1 Magus
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Sparkmage
1 Devout Witness
1 Containment Priest
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Council's Judgment
Spirit of the Lab is pretty unnecessary since Prelate is wrecking Brainstorm decks anyway, just wanted another 2 drop, but that card really isn't that great. Relic Warder is a total bomb in the mirror and also solid vs Eldrazi, 2 matchups where Prelate is bad. Stonecloaker is a close call, I'm gonna keep playing with it for the time being at least. I have yet to have a 'Why am I playing with this garbage' moment.
Pretty sure I've won more games off Prelate than any other card w/ the list I've been testing.
thanks!
regarding the mono w list:
I feel the same about stonecloaker. flash is actually pretty nice in situations where you dont have vial. I havent really used the exile ability in an important way yet, but he hasn't been bad in any scenario. 4 fliers also seem necessary.
I've played kor skyfisher, 3rd revoker or relic warder in the spirit spot of your list, but really liked skyfisher despite not being tutorable.
Devout Witness seems interesting. Don't know if she's too slow though and she can also get revokered/ needled in the mirror. Im playing 2 relicwarder currently but might try devout witness instead (both as 1 ofs). How has she been for you?
Also, is Faerie Macabre really that good? In most scenarios I've prefered playing another RIP despite it not being tutorable. I think we shouldnt play inferior cards just because they are tutorable- which is why Im also playing Skyfisher.
Sure, recruiter into faerie is more consistent as easier to fetch, but Im just not convinced its really that good.
Have you tried playing Orzhov Pontiff?
Deucegg, be sure to take a look at the list I have in the OP. Iatee does not think Thalia, Heretic Cathar is good, but my experiences tell me that it is the best turn 3 play we have. It is going to be hard to get something nearing a consensus build as long as we can not agree upon something like that.
I agree that THC can be an insanely good Turn 3 play. But I think if we play her we should play 2, rather 3 to consistently drop her around turn 3. Pre-recruiter, Ive had her win games on her own, as well as games where I just got her too late to have a real impact. While this might also be an issue with prelate, i think prelate itself is a safer, more versatile and also more powerful option. Thats why I just cant make enough room for 2-3 THC. As mentioned earlier, I consider her only powerful when playing multiple copies. Recruting her seems to slow most of the times. I might play her as fetchable 1 of though, but dont really like her in the new tutor-shell. (Despite happily playing 3 copies pre recruiter)Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
THC is a tempo card and Prelate is a prison card. They do very different things and I think you kinda have to choose a direction to go in. THC is the kinda card you want to pair with Serra Avenger, not Recruiter/Prelate. It's great t3 on the play, but pretty bad t5 on the draw, and when you're playing fewer than 4 copies of a card you're gonna see your first copy after t3 pretty frequently.
You'll almost never tutor for THC because Recruiting itself is a tempo-loss play. Even in the matchups where she's good (Elves, SnS, Eldrazi) there are better silver bullets (Ethersworn, Containment Priest, Magus) to tutor for post-board. I don't think including one THC or Mirran Crusader is the worst idea just to have some sorta beef in the deck, but I don't think they're essential to our game-plan.
I don't think we need a consensus build anytime soon. Plus different builds are gonna be better vs different decks.
Devout Witness is the ultimate mirror breaker, kinda just there as a meta call. I think it's a lot better than Manriki, which can also be revokered/needled. Relic Warder is great, there's basically no way I'd not play at least one copy of that guy in my 75, and 2 doesn't seem terrible either.Quote:
Originally Posted by deucegg
Faerie Macabre has won me a few games where no other card would. I think it's worth the spot in an open meta and it does a few things RiP can't, like interact on t0. If you know there's not a lot of dedicated graveyard decks in your meta it's not essential, but it is pretty nice to have one around.
The non-tutorable Kor Skyfisher doesn't seem like the worst choice, especially since it still has value if you draw it late (since there's likely a Recruiter on the board). I might try it.
I tried Orzhov Pontiff a while back, and I just never found it to be doing what I wanted it to do. Against Fish it's kinda annoying cause if they have a lord their TNNs are out of range immediately. Still, my sample set wasn't super huge, obviously there will be games in the mirror / vs Elves / etc. where it just wipes their board, people might as well try it out and see how it goes.
https://i.redd.it/8qrbo3ljz7kx.png
Did we already get our tutorable bomb in white?
No. Our 4 mana bombshells (Gideon, Cataclysm) are a. stronger in the matchups that go long b. hard to enough to cast as is.
If it were legendary I would play this over those vs Miracles, even at 5 mana. It's not, so a lot of the upside Pia/Kiran has isn't there. I can't think of another matchup where you'd 100% side this in. But I might play around with it regardless.
I mean, in my UW shell I ran Dragonlord Ojutai which was awesome every time I saw and got it into play. I am not sure this card is great. I would likely go with Angel of Jubilation again over this. But the fact that it is tutorable and can make 2 guys isn't terrible. Just sucks that for 5 mana it still dies to dread of night... on that note, I would likely never run it. I think I would just rather run Gisela.