Drewlius - What factors led you to your manabase of 3 city and 3 chrome mox? Also, would you keep the Figure count at 3 and leave the burn package unchanged?
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Drewlius - What factors led you to your manabase of 3 city and 3 chrome mox? Also, would you keep the Figure count at 3 and leave the burn package unchanged?
It is worded the same as misdirection and that is what misdirection does. I would hope that it works this way, I would really like to try this card out. I believe that it will do well in the zoo match, but I don't believe that it is worse in the other matches (if you can actually turn counter at itself).Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfstorm
-Chris-
Example:Quote:
Originally Posted by cwt1220
You: play any spell
Opponent: counterspell on your spell
You: Trap targeting counterspell.
You: change the target of counterspell to target Trap
Trap resolves now.
Counterspell fizzles (countered on resolution) because trap isn't a valid target anymore.
Your spell is on the stack now, and if your opponent doesn't cast a new counterspell or such, your spell resolves.
And now the better part:
If you have a painter in play, you can change the target of any spell that targets something because all spells are blue.
This will cost a single red mana instead of the actual 4 mana casting cost.
Indeed nice against Zoo with PtE/StP and burn spells.
If you don't have a painter and you want to change the target of a StP of PtE you have to pay the full casting cost unless your opponent played an brainstorm or such in that turn
i really want to give a try to this new trap. it has it's pros and cons over blasts. Blast are not useful execpt against blue when painter is not in play. trap is overcosted if painter is not in play but it can be played at least. besides that, this decks relies on having painter in play (as well as the mana denial moon plan and beats, but we play 6-8 blasts maindeck because of him) and thta's why we play recruiter. Misdirection is worse than this trap, always making a 2:2 or 2:1 but this trap can be a 1:1 (when fighting in a counter war like blasts) or a 1:2 in most cases. Sure, it can't counter other threats like blast does but if we play both i think it will be ok. Now i don't know what it would be the right number to play MD and if the other are worth SB slots. I'll try to make a rough list:
4 IP
4 Magus
4 Painter
4 Grindstone
4 SSG
3 Mox
6 Blasts
3 Bolts
2 Jaya
3 Figure
2 Tops
1 shusher
10 mountain
1 fetch
4 tomb
3 cities
this is the list i play now.
maybe we can do -1 jaya, -1 figure, -1 ssg, to play 3 md
sb:
1 more trap
3 blood moon
1 bolt
3 relic
3 shatering
3 trini
2 magma jet
i know this is untested, I'll try to say in a few days how it worked for me despite my reduced group of playtesting. Anyway, I hope it will help
Thorin
IMO, I would cut the MD shusher before I cut a Jaya, she is just too good to not be there. Plus if you want to run 3 traps main, you could cut the tops, as you do not run jets and only one fetch.
-Chris-
Regarding the manabase, I think it's important to remember that Imperial Painter uses a Stompy manabase, but it's not really a Stompy deck. Dragon Stompy and Faerie Stompy for example want at least 2 or 3 mana on turn 1, almost every time whereas Painter can play easily off of a turn 1 mountain, and will many times then have 3 mana on turn 2. Fast mana is nice in Painter, but it's not as necessary as in Stompy decks.Quote:
Drewlius - What factors led you to your manabase of 3 city and 3 chrome mox? Also, would you keep the Figure count at 3 and leave the burn package unchanged?
I think a lot of people went down to 3 Moxes. I do it because getting 2 of them during the game is bad enough card disadvantage that it trumps the speed gain you get from running 4.
I had thought about replacing a City with another mountain for a while, but I didn't actually do it until about the time that I was using Figure in the deck. I like the stability of -1 City, +1 Mountain enough that I would probably keep this manabase even without Figures, but they provide even more incentive to run the extra red mana.
I would play 4 Figures if I had one more spot open. Right now, there is no card I would take out of the MD or SB for a fourth Figure though. I was also really happy with 2 Engineered Explosives in the SB, and that does justify playing one less 1-cc permanent.
The MD 2-2 Lightning Bolt/Magma Jet split with Bolts 3 and 4 in the SB worked well for me. In my opinion, deck manipulation is really good in Painter, and is more necessary in a land-heavy build like mine. But I whittled the number of Sensei's Tops to 2. I do not want to have any less than 4 deck-manipulation cards, and I would like to have at least 4 MD burn spells if possible. Again, it's mainly an issue of space in the deck. In this case another concern is Chalice of the Void and not having too many 1cc spells. Also, Top and Jet together dig pretty quickly through your deck. So, rather than play 3 Tops + 3 Bolts, I'm playing 2-2-2 Tops/Bolts/Jets.
So I've been thinking about the new trap and I believe that at least 2 deserve testing in the main board, there's been plenty of times where I've had to protect my painter where the trap could misdirect a bolt or swords onto there critter or onto my own recruiter(obviously burn spells can be misdirected back at the player). I believe it should make our zoo match up stronger being able to pray on there creatures using there own burn spells, whenever a painter is on the board they will have to think twice about trying to remove it for fear of possibly loosing there own creature.
I am currently testing 2 traps in the place of 1 blast, and 1 land. I never really liked 19 land, so I am back to 18 and running 6 blasts and 2 traps seems a bit excessive.
-Chris-
Wich trap are you referring to?
Ricochet Trap 3rQuote:
Originally Posted by Maggical
Instant - Trap Uncommon
If an opponent cast a blue spell this turn, you may pay {R} rather than pay Ricochet Trap’s mana cost.
Change the target of target spell with a single target.
Question, how often do you need weenie/figure beatings to win with this deck because of painter/stone fail (exiled,needle,iona/mmage)?
I'm building a slightly different uR version but want to cut Figures for better results.
uR version is more or less only combo based so you don't need figures.Quote:
Originally Posted by blaat
The Mono R version is combo/"aggro&control" so you do need the figures as they are the best red creature option for now. As rath said the control&aggro creatures are Magus&jaya backing up figures, i also use jitte/solas (2/1).
So yes if you play uR cut the figures.
Also figures not only help if you wanna go aggro mode but they can be used as a decoy for stp/bolt etc so your painter is safe.
To answer the "how often part", i am not sure really, better wait for drewlius/cwt1220 answer as my feedback aren't really representative (only used the deck at 2 tournaments).
In my experience it was often an even split between aggro/control wins vs. combo wins. Finding a painter is never the problem, but grindstone can be tougher. Without a grindstone you win via combat with either a moon effect or blasts / jaya control.Quote:
Originally Posted by blaat
I would almost go as far as saying that I win half my games by beating for the win. If I have recruiter and no stone, I go for the figure and put pressure on them, make them use their removal and not have it for the painter. I would like to go to a 4th figure, but I don't want to rely so heavily on a curve of 1. I can't see anything now that would do what figure is doing for the deck now. In regards to the blue splash, I have tried it a few different ways and have never really liked it as much as straight red. Adding another color has always slowed the deck down and taken it away from what it is supposed to do. That is just my opinion though.
-Chris-
The trap should be better against Zoo than Blast almost always, but I'm still worried about how conditional it might be overall. It's definitely worth trying and it'll be interesting to see how it works out.Quote:
So I've been thinking about the new trap and I believe that at least 2 deserve testing in the main board, there's been plenty of times where I've had to protect my painter where the trap could misdirect a bolt or swords onto there critter or onto my own recruiter(obviously burn spells can be misdirected back at the player). I believe it should make our zoo match up stronger being able to pray on there creatures using there own burn spells, whenever a painter is on the board they will have to think twice about trying to remove it for fear of possibly loosing there own creature.
Figure is good for more reasons than just helping the beatdown. He's also a cheap decoy and a wall. Drawing removal or counters for 1 red mana is a fine trade, and a 4/4 Figure helps stall while you assemble the combo. I think slightly more than half my wins are with the combo, but Figure is important in many of those games too. Like ryO! said though, you probably don't need Figures in a UR build.Quote:
Question, how often do you need weenie/figure beatings to win with this deck because of painter/stone fail (exiled,needle,iona/mmage)?
I'm building a slightly different uR version but want to cut Figures for better results.
Thanks for the answers.
The current uR build I test is with 3-4 trinket mages with a single E.E and Top maindeck toolbox, with the rest of the toolbox SB (relic, crypt maybe even a meekstone).
Other additions are 1-2 shoreline ranger (for testing purposes) and a single llawan, cephalid empress.
Manabase + 3-4 scalding tarn, 1 volcanic island and 1 island, which makes a total of 19 land for now.
Assembling the combo feels so much better with the addition of trinket mage.
I even had games where I recruit a trinket mage for finding me a grindstone and win.
Llawan is a funny card that is tutorable, bounces all opponents creatures and if it sticks, stops the aggro plan of your opponent.
It's even better against merfolk (lot of players in my meta).
However, I do know as described above that the deck loses it's aggro plan and bait for opponents removal.
The mana base hasn't give me a serious problem yet (also because of the shoreline rangers) but there could be times you haven't found a island, need it, but have a blood moon effect out that kills your fetch/dual.
On the other hand, you do play only 4-5 blue spells anyway so it shouldn't be a big problem anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blaat
I have been testing the blue version for some times
The MD tool box was
1 SDT
1 Meekstone (wonderful choice)
My advice would be to cut the shoreline ranger to catch 1 Solemn Simulacrum (get your island and draw).
I was playing a goblin welder too, making Solemn Simulacrum + SDT a nice drawing / chumpblock / shuffling engine .
On the end, the deck was pretty strong because of the Card advantage
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Trinket
1 Simulacrum
the beatdown was weak, so i had 3 jitte to help it a bit.
Don't forget your mox chrome gives you blue with painter in play :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by blaat
Also in the trinket version, one of the equipments should be replaced by the new basiliqk collar, leaving a 2/1 split with Jitte.
we may indeed include one basilisk collar in the monored version. this would give us the possibility of stalling against big tarmos or sending recruiters into the red zone and forcing them to trade or open a 2 life breach. i'm considering putting one of this along a copy of goblin sharpshooter, which is a one sided wrath of god if they come online. what do you think?
hi there,
in the last few days i tested a white splash for the painter deck. i would like to hear some oppinions on this. i also would like to point out that i am new to this forum. although i read through the thread here, i might bring up considerations discussed in previous or other threads. i apologize in advance if i create any rendundancy here.
but now, fist of all, the list:
7 [ZEN] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [MR] Plains (2)
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [A] Plateau
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [P3] Imperial Recruiter
3 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
2 [TSP] Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
3 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
3 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
1 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [TE] Grindstone
3 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [5E] Pyroblast
3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
1 [9E] Blood Moon
2 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
3 [FD] Magma Jet
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [FD] Silent Arbiter
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [CHK] Hearth Kami
SB: 1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 [WWK] Basilisk Collar
SB: 1 [UL] Mother of Runes
SB: 1 [9E] Circle of Protection: Red
and here my thoughts:
the white splash:
as noted a few pages back in this thread, the biggest problem for painter players are decks that heavily focus on beats supported by spot removal and/or burn. and of course the chalice issue. for the reason of white providing quiet nice answers to each of these threats i decided to splash it in. As it is my nature as an economist, i want to keep the splash as marginalized as possible, using only the best avalible, since overall consistency seems to be an issue too. And per se - it is negatively affected by an additional color. As non of the chosen white cards are limited in thier use as the white spell itself, i will discuss the single choices in the following greater context.
the mana base:
Whithin the MB there are only two white spells - namely the enlightened tutors. The SB adds in 3 further white spells for a possible total of 5 with no white spell having WW in its cost. therefor i think that 4 fetches, a Plateau and one basic plains is enough. When adjusting the manabase i add 4 shuffle effects. I stick with 19 Lands total, although i often feel that 18 would do as well. Yet better being save than sorry. I am on 3 chrome mox and 3 simmian spirit guides. The latter possition is a critical one for me. i cut the 4th ssg to be able to add in a Susher into the MB. this effectively reduces my chances of a first turn moon (or trini in g2 / g3) but i feel that 3 is barely enough. oppinions on this issue are especially welcome.
The MB:
This part of the Deck is quiet simmilar to the mono-red versions discussed in this thread. It basically features the same cards with the exception of the two enlightened tutor. Simultaneously i have gone down to 3 Grindstone, up to 3 top and only play a total of 4 moon-spells in the mainboard.
the tutors get two great jobs done. first of all they find both combo peaces if needed. additional they are adding in two more shuffle effects and potentially find you quiet a set of answers, especially after sideboarding. given the amount that can be found with them, i still consider to go up to 3 enlightened - maybe for cuting another grindstone?
the enlightened tutors themselves opened the door for my decission on the total moon count (SB+MB). i cut the additional moon effects from the sindeboard for the following reason: i have moon effects in creature and in entchantment form, 4 total. i have 4 recruiter and 2 enlightened tutors to find them. overall this adds up to 11 potential moons. Imho this is more than enough - especially given that i play only 3 ssg. i also cosider to go down to 2 magnus and up to 2 bloodmoon(even if this means having a dead bloodmon later in the game). this is a consequence of realizing that magnus can be answerd by many decks who just float a mana and send him straight to hell the moment he hits the table.
the next issue is the grindstone count. There is a tradeoff here. i rarely need more than one grindstone but, at any time, i would like to have one ready. beeing able to find them with enlightened, if you need them right now, is reason enough to go down to 3. above i stated me considering to cut another one for the reasons mentioned there and for the improved overall consistency(explained soon). but then again, i do not want to depend on a tutor to find the grindstone in general... what are your thoughts here?
having 4 fetches and 2 enlightened in the MB adds in 6 shuffle effects for a total of 10 with the imperial tutors. This is why i decided to go up to 3 senseis divining top. the combination of this along with the 3 magma jet provide me with plently of deck manipulation. this is adressing the consistency issue as one of the major problems of the deck.
for some general concerns i would like to add in a fourth figure but i cant convince myself what to cut for it. also, playing a total of only 3 burn spells, i might lack options to get rid of creatures. but then again, i go through my deck quiet fast to find them and painter+blast is also an answer. additionally the SB(as will be discussed later) provides alternatives to burn power. yet, im not dead sold on this issue. 2 additional lightning helix oder 2 lightning bolts are reasonable without question. the new ricochet trap needs consideration as well!
The SB:
The SB, on the first look, seems totally random. i admid this. but look at it from this point of view:
fist of all we have the usual stuff like gy-hate and trini. i think these are fix slots. adressing the remaining major problems of the deck i designed the rest of the SB to help against burn, the unloved chalice, spot-removal (i like my painters alive :P) and bare agression (hi there, tarmo folks).
the two EE, the seal of cleansing and the hearth kami are 4 options to answer artifacts (in particular chalice) and enchantments. i see these cards as the pile that replaced the 3 chattering spree and the viashino heretic i have used before. given the white splash, i have a white and a red source to answer artifacts and entchantments. both of them can be used at instant speed. additional the two EE, assuming painter set on a color other than red or white, can hit everything with cmc<4. All of this is tutorable, either by enlightened or by recruiter summing up to a potential 11 slots providing answers if needed. 4 of these tutors are not locked if chalice on 1 hits the table.
slowly but constantly running low on SB slots, i came up with a "mix" of solutions that answer creature based aggression along with spellbased aggression. lets start with creature based agression. against this, i chose the following pile: mother of runes, silent arbiter, basilisk collar(as of soon ;)), and a cop: red. i originally included the latter one, on advice of a friend, against burn and progenitus. but along with painter this amounts to a, somewhat cheesy but impenetrable, wall if not answered. therefor i do not consider it as too narrow.
the collar itself answers creatures as noone is willing to trade a muscular tarmo against a single imperial recruiter or hardcasted spirit guide. you are potentially drawing away spot removal from the vital stuff here. the livelink also is sweet vs burn. i considered sharpshooter as supposed in a post before but since shooter as well as collar needs to be tutored, an additional SB slot is lost and Jaja does the same job i discarded the idea. mother of runes answers aggression from non-trampling creatures in addition to protecting the vital elements from spot removal or burn.
regarding the silent arbiter... i am not sold on him. he is basically a decoy with a nice effect as long as its there. although he can be found by all the 6 tutors he is a walking target. then again, he can buy you time against empty the warrents, weeni, gobo, folk and so on. i really view this slot as the most weak spot in the whole SB. arbiter along with mother, to a lesser extend, are the slots that i consider debatable. Again, everything can be fetched by tutors just when needed.
Pithing needle, given 2 or more enlightened tutors in the MB, is a good choice. this one on pridemage, on vial, on survival, on an opponents top or on belcher... its too good to not have it. it can be found by tutors, it stalls vs combo in general and works nicely in the mirror matchup.
well, thats it. i am hungry for feedback on this... and thank you for reading "the spam" :P
best regards, DrGonzo
The first tests i made playing imperial painter was to start with a W splash.:smile:
I never find a way to make it work. The deck has too much CD (Simian, Moxes). Adding too more CD is not that efficient.
In my opinion, the W splash helps you in game 2/3 but makes your game 1 harder.