[Deck] The Rock

Aggro Rock w/ Natural Order

Land (19)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
(1 Dryad Arbor)

Creatures (19)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Progenitus

Spells (21)
3 Sensei's Divining Top/Mirri's Guile*
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughseize/Inquisition of Kozilek**
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Natural Order
2 Umezawa's Jitte

* - Top vs Guile: Not sure about this one, my friend has been testing Mirri's Guile. He says the lack of mana investment is amazing for the deck, as we still get to fix our draws and help out Bob. I haven't tested it myself but next time I play I will for sure. the only thing I see as a downside is the loss of floating tricks with Top.

** - I have a feeling Inquisition will be better than Thoguhtseize in an aggro meta, as the life loss is significant vs zoo. Anything that we miss with IoK we can get later with therapy so I have a feeling it will work well. Thoughtseize is better in a control/landstill meta (although I don't think this is the right build for that meta)

The 2 Jitte are the "Flex slots", but I have a feeling they really want to be equipment to shore up our game vs merfolk, zoo, elves, and goblins.

This list is quite fast, and can have some broken starts along the lines of T1 Birds, T2 Seize/IoK, Therapy, T3 NO. It rapes Blue, and has good game vs aggro. Combo is questionable, but T3 Progenitus is surprisingly effective vs Reanimator.

Sideboard:
2 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Extirpate
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Mindbreak Trap

Control Rock (also with NO :D)

Land (21)
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
3 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Treetop Village

Creatures (20)
4 Wall of Roots
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw
1 Progenitus

Spells (19)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Recurring Nightmare*
2 Elspeth
3 Natural Order

This build is unfortunately a lot slower, and I had to stop playing it because my matches would keep going to time :P. Elspeth is a bomb (and should maybe go to 3); I only lost 1 game when I resolved it. Recurring Nightmare, Vindicate effects are flexible, as are a couple of the creature choices (Shriekmaw is BFF w/ RN). Wall of Roots is amazing vs aggro, has great value vs daze, and accelerates the T3 NO if need be. Its not the best topdeck ever but is good fodder for RN lategame. I was running an Enlightened Tutor board similar to ZZZ which gives multiple copies of hate like Cannonist, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Crypt, etc. and helps you find RN and Deed in aggro matches if need be. EoT tutor into Deed is super fun :) I'm starting to think Knight of the Reliquary should have a home here, as I have been having much success with him in other decks. perhaps if you eschew the NO package he can go in as a 4 of (perhaps with Pridemage over Confidant too if that suits you). This list alot more G/W focused, with just a small black splash for more removal and good board cards (Extirpate). Good game against aggro, but virtually no chance vs combo :P took out discard for more controllish aspects, since it wasnt doing much for me as a 4 of. In a more blue meta I would probably fit it back in. I'd also like to get some more Shriekmaw action in there somehow, probably over a Wall of Roots or something.

I could never get a sideboard I liked with this deck so I'll leave it out for now.


Cheers,

MrShine

i have to say i love the aggro rock list but also i have to say i do not like progenitus that much even if it is extremely effective, but i have to say if i myself would play progenitus too, i would have a mainboard out without changing the list too much
i think if i would not want to include the hydra i could also play knight or doran in that slot, right?

what about the jitte, why is it a flexible slot, and what would you suggest if i wold not want to play jitte

lately i've been thinking, that if i would keep confidant in my build, i could include enlightened tutor to fetch a divining top if necessary, maybe as addictional tutor targets 1 canonist, 1 jitte, my mainboard deeds

how are you feeling about birds in the aggro list, are they included because of natural order or just to speed up the deck, plus aren't 19 lands a bit insufficient? i am playing 22 lands and that seems about the right number for me(but i'm not playing birds)

and last 2 question, how are theraphys working out for you? lately i've been thinking of adding them maybe to get an extra boost of life out of finks

and aren't you a little more vulnerable to countertop-lists with the aggro rock list, with a little more cc2 spells

Hi Mr. Shine, I agree with a lot of what you're saying and I'd like to add some comments:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrShine

Firstly - ZZZ - I like the direction you are taking, it is very much along the lines of what I tuned my list to a couple months back. For all those who are wondering, Elspeth is indeed a bomb - I only ever lost once when I resolved one. It manages to be both defensive and offensive as the situation warrants it, jumping a goyf or spamming blockers, and has awesome synergy with Deed. I have played against a few people who overextended into my deed on the table because they thought I would loose her too ;)

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QFT. I'm glad you're as convinced as I am about Elspeth. She belongs in every Rock deck that isn't pure aggro imo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrShine

What I'd like to say, and what hasn't been brought up lately, is that in my opinion and Rock deck should be playing Natural Order + Progenitus. Now, I know there is a separate thread for it, but in my opinion the simple addition of 4 cards doesnt significantly change the deck, but just gives us a real I WIN button. PLEASE test it, you will not be disappointed.

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This I do not agree with. While I believe that a Rock deck can support NoPro and it'll be good in there; I don't think every Rock build should play the combo. Elspeth is often an 'I win-button' as well (although most people don't see it immediately as it's not a 10/10 protection from everything Hydra) and has some advantages over NoPro imo: it requires less resources (i.e. no green creature to sac) and it takes up less slots in the deck. We also don't play Brainstorm so can't shuffle Progenitus back in the deck and Edict effects are played more nowadays which makes NoPro worse (esp in a deck that isn't blue).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrShine

@ Smallpox – seems like a cool idea but the deck would have to be seriously warped to accommodate it… it’s the kind of card where synergy is key. I know it has been beaten to death, but Bloodghast, maybe? Still, has merit vs reanimation/NO/Show and Tell strategies, expecially vs reanimator since it can eat their lands (which they don’t have many of)

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Yep, I agree with you again. I think Smallpox definitely has a lot going for it in today's meta but you can't throw the card into any Rock deck. I think there's definitely a good list to be made with this card (you could probably get some inspiration from the Pox and Trisomy21 threads), Deed and Planeswalkers seem like nice synergy with Smallpox as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrShine

@ Reanimator – I have also seen reanimator players naming black, but I guess it’s a good idea since all the ‘tech; outs are black, including Shriekmaw (which is good vs Iona, Emrakul (not reanimator I know), Fleshbag Marauder (Inkwell, Progenitus), Extripate, etc. Most impotantly, though, is that iIona on Black shuts off BOTH Maelstrom Pulse and Vindicate.
As far as Knight goes, its not gonna be relevant vs reanimator in my opinion because once they see you are not blue they will power out the combo fast and Knight comes down too late to race. Without birds, it’s a Turn 4 attack… In terms of Karakas shenanigans, a saavy reanimator player SHOULD bring out inkwell if they see a knight/suspect you are playing karakas… I mean, everyone is playing it these days… I dunno. Its not the worst card but it should by no means be relied upon to swing the match in your favour.
And as far as the cutting white goes, if the reanimator player is good, then they will name black anyway (as evidenced by various persons playtesting experience) so keeping in swords works (its also just the best removal spell in the format, and what you gain from it vs aggro far outweighs having it potentially shutoff by Iona – don’t compromise the deck for a margnial advantage in a matchup that isnt ubiquitous)

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I think a good Reanimator player, we'll name White with Iona (they might gamble on Black in game 2???) if they go for Iona, I think Empyrial Archangel and Inkwell are also good options against us.
Nevertheless, I agree that Karakas is too narrow, even if you're running Knight (if you're not running Knight, Karakas doesn't make any sense to me). I think we should have a fighting chance against Reanimator but Edict effects (either main or board) are needed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrShine

@ non-reanimator Combo – while I tend to lump reanimator in with combo, it can be more easily disrupted w/ black therefore its probably a bit better than Storm/Belcher combo. As far as they go, I really don’t think that without a great hand-disruption/goyf hand then this we are HIGHLY unfavoured. NO can steal games if they stumble, so its gives us a chance but still if there is a lot of combo then the Rock is not the right deck to play.
Still, I don’t know what the right type of hate out of the board should be... Teeg or Cannonist seems the best since they can add to a clock. Combined with Mindbreak Trap, which we, as Rock players, really need to consider, there is a sliver of hope…

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Mindbreak Trap sucks against combo. I sometimes play ANT myself and I don't consider myself a good combo player but even for me it's pretty easy to play around. Heavy discard alone will also win very few games.
The best hate we can run is Thorn and Canonist imo. Doomsday can play through Teeg with a pile with Slaughter Pact or Deathmark.
If you really want to run The Rock in a meta with a lot of combo, you should also run Orim's Chant in the side (together with Thorn/Canonist) but that means you'll be spending about 8 slots only to combo...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrShine

@ Goblins – TOUGH matchup in my opinion… I have never won a full match in a tournament. AS far as I see, their efficient creatures and good curve demads immediate response with approximately equivalent resouces from us, where our answers are either on par or cost more mana wise. So, we are losing tempo to stay in the game, at which point Ringleader shows up (he has a nasty habit of coming out even through discard) and proceeds to refill their hand and crush our (my) soul. Even though E Plague is good, its not good enough vs Merfolk to be useful IMO and just takes up sideboard slots that we need for matches that we don’t already have a decent (read: at least 50:50) matchup against. Furthermore, I find that its really only good if we get multiples and get 2 into play before about turn 5, which is a tall order. This also means that we need to run at least 3 in the board to have a shot at seeing them early which therefore takes up valuable sideboarding space. Maybe I’m super unlucky, but this is NOT something I want to get paired against (yet I always seem to…). Otherwise, I have found that for slower builds (and possibly those running Exploration), Elspeth is great as it churns out blocker like no tomorrow… its just a stalling mechanism but it DOES give you time to find Deed/Goyfs. In any case, Not Fun.

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The Goblins matchup heavily depends on your build. With the Recurring Nightmare build I played, I consider it 50-50 preboard but heavily in my favour post board. With my previous build (pure control build) the matchup was much worse. The key to the matchup is card advantage imo; if they don't draw Ringleaders or you can keep them off it with your discard, you're in good shape.
I disagree that Plague is not good enough but it is a fact that Merfolk can easily win through 1 Plague with all the Lords they play. Therefore I also board in some extra spot removal in the Tribal matchups. If you want to make Plague effective you'd probably have to spend about 5 sideboard slots on the tribal matches (3 Plague + 2 Enlightened Tutor for example or 4 Plague + an extra Path) but imo that is worth it. I encounter a lot of Goblins and Merfolk; double Plague wins that match and a single one combined with spot removal and big Goyfs/Knights also has a good chance to take the match.
Deed is good vs Merfolk but not so good against Goblins; they have a lot of Gobbo's with cmc 3 or higher and compared with their mana denial, you'd probably have to spend 2 turns to clear the board. Ringleader and Warchief can have them recover a lot faster than we can. I usually board out Deed vs Gobs. I also always board out Elspeth against Merfolk and Goblins, I find her usually a bit too slow in that matchup.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrShine

@ sideboarding – I mentioned some things in other places but the main point I want to get across is that space is REALLY at a premium for Rock decks; we need 4-5 graveyard Hosers and if we don’t want to punt Combo totally we need something like 3-5 solutions… with grips and paths (to shore up merfolk/zoo) there isnt much left… As for Needle, it seems to me the consensus is Decent but I don’t think I want to put something in the ‘Board unless its REALLY going to make a difference. Also, I'm not convinced Choke is that good either; at least, in my meta there aren't a ton of slow blue control decks anymore and I find choke to be pretty useless vs Merfolk, so its deadweight in my opinion.

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I agree SB space is at a premium; therefore I see 2 options: or you try to make a good metagame estimate and focus your sideboard on that or you play an E-tutor board so you can play a more diverse board.
Like I said above, if you want to make combo into a decent matchup, you probably need to spend 6 to 8 slots to it (apart from grave hate and Choke) and then you need to ask yourself: is it worth it?
I use Choke mostly against CounterTop builds. It also comes in against ANT. I do not board it in against Merfolk (unless I run Ghostly Prison in the board as well).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrShine

@ Recurring Nightmare – It’s a great card, and makes Zoo cry when combined w/ Finks, but is marginal vs CBTop and non-creature based strategies. Again, a geat addition to a control based Rock if we’re expecting lots of Aggro but then again we beat aggro anyway… does that make it Win-more? I’m not sure. In any case, it is a powerhouse in the right context.

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I don't think it's win-more. Nightmare can do so many things; combined with Witness it can ensure you draw removal each turn, it can make their removal useless, it can have a big impact on combat, ... I think it's an excellent card against aggro and aggro-control and can be quite usefull against controll decks as well. It is (nearly) dead in the combo matchup (atlhough not in the Dredge mathchup) but most decks have dead cards maindeck against combo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrShine

@ Sensei’s Divining Top – Absolutely Essential, with or without Confidant. The rock has barely any sources of card advantage so we need to maximize our draws every turn to keep gas coming. I’m sure you are all aware of the amazingness when paired with Bob, so I wont really get into it. Bottom line: Card advantage/selection is paramount to a deck designed to fight so many different strategies at once. Also, don’t forget that Top allows you to float answers in case of hand distruption (something I’ve found useful against reanimator – floating extripate, grab it after being thoughtseized
*note: that being said, my friend has found success using Mirri’s Guile in his Aggro Rock. It filters cards without tying up mana, which can be a real issue with the deck.

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QFT, Top is what makes Rock viable imo. I ran 4 in my previous build and I'm trying to fit the 4th one in the Nightmare-build as well but I'm not sure what to cut.
I can see Mirri's Guile being good in an aggro build but I haven't tested it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrShine

@ Dark Confidant – with or without Top, this guy is the nuts, as the raw CA he provides is such a boost that it is no wonder he is constantly countered/removed by saavy players. While he may not have a home in a slower list packing high CC cards, in any list that tops out the curve at 3, the life loss is well worth the advantage gained. My advice to those worrying about the damage – run Finks. He pulls you out of the thoughtseize/bob rut quite well. Additionally, Inquisition of Kozilek over Seize may alleviate the potential problem. While this has been said a thousand times, even if he dies to spot removal that’s one less for you beaters that are actually going to end the game, and if he doesn’t, then he will liekly win you the game due to crazy CA.
Note – to all those worried about the life-loss, I am playing him in a NO build and have yet to have a problem considering the presence of 3x 4cc and 1x 10cc cards.

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I even ran Bob once next to 4 Tombstalker (with 3 Top). I probably lost 1 or 2 games with flipping an 8 cc off of Bob but I won tons of games on the card advantage he provided.
However I don't consider him an auto-include. I don't run him in my control build because the avg cmc is too high.

One more thing: I will never run Inquisition of Kozilek over Thoughtseize (not being able to hit things like FoW, Ad Nauseam, Jace, Elspeth, Ringleader,... is much worse than the life loss imo). If I were to run targeted discard in addition to Thoughtseize, I'd probably go for Duress over Inquisition (unless in a build with Nightmare where Therapy is needed) as we already have many ways of dealing with creatures.

I've moved one bog main, and now my sideboard is looking like this:

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate
3 Choke
3 Engineered Plague
3 Flex Slots

I could run 3 Edict, 3 Fleshbag Marauder, 3 Path, 2 More Finks + 1 Fleshbag, 2 Sphere of Law (Damn slow though). What would you guys say? I'm leaning towards either 3 Diabolic Edict or 3 Path.

-MAtt

i would use edicts, since they are also usefull in the dredge matchup, by sacrificing your own dudes, and is obviously better against reanimator

but i have to say i do not like the engineered plagues, i think they have to little impact on the board/game and its rare to get 2 of em in play, plus i think we are to slow to efficiently use them against tribal decks since we do not use dark rituals, and very few lists are running birds.
if your list(do not remember which one it was) has mana accelleration its fine in that case it should work

The thing is, I think it's one of those things I can't leave out. It takes out Vampire Hexmage, BoB's, name Cats on Zoo, against Goblins it's amazing, Merfolk it isn't bad, hoses Counter-Top Thopter (which I've seen more and more lately), and name Zombie or Horror on Dredge. It's never totally devastating, but it helps. I'm running 3 Noble Hierarch as mana acceleration.

Yeah, I'm thinking Diabolic is the way to go.

Thanks guys!

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by publius_aelius

@ zalachan (and damion)

Although I like damion's deck that you played at the tournament in Ljubljana, it's not the direction I would like the Rock to go. I mean, like someone said before – this is not the Rock anymore. Of course Exploration-Crucible combined with Armageddon looks great, but that does not feel „Rockish.“

I'm actually shocked that you managed to beat stax in R1 (a friend of mine) and then lose to Merfolks (I hate 'em). :mad: On the other hand, I simply don't see how Leyline fits in this deck – it so …suboptimal. Reanimator and Dredge will echo it back to your hand, and KoR will be angry at you because you deprive her of her food. :wink:
Regarding Deed – I would most definitely include one more copy because it solves tons of problematic creatures and usually provides card advantage. Deed Rocks! :cool:

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Hi there, nice to see someone else post about that tournament, it has been a very nice day and i really hope that we meet again in such great numbers :D
Btw, what deck did you play?

About the damion deck:
I wanted to play Rock, playtested a bunch of different sorts of Rock and Survival lists. All of them felt suboptimal to me and i couldn't get Retainers, so i skipped plans to play Survival alltogether.
I don't consider damions list as a Rock, but rather as a deck that can mimic its' playstile very well when needed. It's still board control, some advantages/sinergies, but has that lategame oomph in Armageddon, which turns off topdecks, which are traditionally bad for heavy discard strategies.
About the R1 opponent- he was very nice guy. I think he drew a bunch of semi-dead cards against me (i.e.: Prison, Magus, Chalice) which gave me a lot of time. 3rd game he didn't get to cast Geddon before i landed Deed, so he had some bad luck there.
About Merfolk: I hate that wimpy deck, too, but i punted and i deserved to loose. Playtesting is also tech i didn't use beforehand. I feel the deck is very strong against fishes.
About Leylines: I agree, they feel suboptimal, i would rather play a combination of Trap/Faerie/Crypt or something. It's true, Leyline is stronger, but i just dont like the feel of it, at least in that deck.
About bounce vs. Leyline: Reanimator needs to Mystical for answer most of the time and Dredge needs to draw it. Not exactly hard to do, i know, but in the meantime, they are forced to play fair.

Saturday I went 4-1-1 at the Grand Prix trial at TNLG in Nashville, placing 2/11 with this:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Serra Avenger
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Aether Vial
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland

SB:
2 Path to Exile
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I beat Reanimator three times (!) as well as Merfolk and lost to New Horizons in the finals. There was a round four ID against U/W tempo in there because that match-up seemed unfun for both of us.

Some thoughts on the cards:

- Mother of Runes is fantastic, especially in conjunction with Basilisk Collar. I took four or five hits from a Sphinx of the Steel Wind by racing it with a Collared Goyf protected by Mom, and then lived long enough to find mana to cast and equip Serra Avenger and further top-deck Swords to Plowshares.
- Maelstrom Pulse didn't show up that often, but I did kill two massive Terravores with one against New Horizons, which was cool. Plus I like not having all my removal in one color, so I can get around both Iona naming White and the pro-green on Sphinx.
- I only got to Wastelock Reanimator via Knight of the Reliquary once, and then also naturally in the above-mentioned game involving the Collar, which was against Eli, plus also ridiculous.
- Be it resolved that sticking Dark Confidant just rules basically always. See also: Aether Vial.
- Do not board out Gaddock Teeg against Merfolk; they board in Submerge. Also, did you realize you can Submerge a motherfucker in response to its controller cracking a fetchland? Lucas took me to school on that one.
- Awkward mana hurt me a few times against New Horizons. So did my inability to remain focused after five rounds of Magic when I'm late for a date. Anyway to shore up that match-up probably I should add a second plains, and/or cut a Bayou for the third Savannah.

Bottom line, for my trouble I won 14 packs of WWK (Jace lottery, haven't opened 'em yet) plus a Grindstone and All Is Dust. Hoo ray. Hooray for some guys.

-Dan

danpo, I have been running a very similar deck myself. I was playing uw tempo and realized that my favorite part of that deck was Vial/Mother of runes/avenger/jitte, but i wanted something like Dark Confidant in that deck so bad. so I tried to port it over to bgw.

3 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Serra Avenger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Eternal Witness
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Sword of light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Aether Vial
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Savannah
1 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

I do like your build, and i might do some tweaking now that I see someone is doing well with the same shell. The thing I am really liking about yours is the Teeg in where I have witness. Witness is not always that thrilling, but it sometimes gets a clutch Seize or StP. Teeg usually comes in from the board, but you are probably more correct in be somewhat pre-boarded for the bad matchups. I should have a report from this month soon.

Rorschach,
Yeah, I prefer this set-up over U/W because I think it's a lot less demanding to play Thoughtseize and KotR correctly all day than to consistently time Force of Will and Wayfarer perfectly.

Anyway, how has Stronghold been for you? Do you find yourself fetching it up with KotR? When does it shine, and do you worry about hitting your colors, esp. against decks packing Stifle or Sinkhole?
I made a mistake against New Horizons, boarding Teeg out on the rationale that the only thing in N.H Teeg affects is FOW, but of course in reality they board in extra copies of Engineered Explosives, and if Teeg can keep him off of those you stand a much better chance. I wanted to board Crypts in as well to weaken his Knights and Terravores but I wasn't sure what to take out, or if it was worth it. I was also bringing Path in, obviously. Thoughts?

Also, you're playing Sword of Light&Shadow over Fire&Ice - How come? Has it proven itself and if so where? I was playing SoFI but found it very clunky and not worth the trouble. Often I wished it was SoLS.
What's your board look like?
Have you tested against Storm Combo at all and how's that match-up look?

Have fun.
-Dan

Stronghold, SoLS and Witnesses were additions I made because alot of people in the area play merfolk, baseruption, dreadstill and other heavy blue control decks with many counterspells. I found myself running out of gas often and wanting to be able to recycle when we ended up in late game situations. the traditional control motive of "waste your resources and beat you with the last threat standing" was basically what i kept running into. SoLS has performed amazingly so far. I like it almost as much as jitte most times, i would fetch it as often as jitte if it were 2cc and 2 equip but alas, it is not. Witness has been kind of a let down. GG can be hard to come by most times, and a 2/1 is nothing to write home about. the best times are when it gets me a clutch StP or Pulse. I had vindicate in the deck before, and I would much prefer it still, but Iona becomes a problem then. Stronghold is a 50/50 thing. Sometimes i find it at the right time, and sometimes i find myself needing a black sourse and drawing this to add injury to insult. Seeing Stifle + Wasteland has been a bitch and a half too, but i can't see much way around it with 3 colors. i could up the basics, but that just eats slots for utility lands. Storm combo is not too fun. aggressive mulliganing is the best in that respect. I mull to a seize unless as far as down to 5. i run a Tutor package in the sb and that has been useful most times, with the added benefit of Etutor fetching Vials and Tops as well. I would love to fit 3 Duress in the sideboard somehow, but i am at a loss to find the best way to do that

2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wheel Of sun and Moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Krosan Grip
2 Deathmark
2 Pernicious Deed

alot of games has been won with Mother of Runes, Serra Avenger, and Jitte all active. i feel like more sources of lifegain would be beneficial too, because confidant provides so much advantage, and yet without a Top, he sometimes bites me too hard. I would Like Kitchen Finks, but would probably have to take out the Witnesses. i guess it is testing time.

Back fresh from SCG Seattle! I didn't end up playing Rock, I played White Stax instead, due to my friends needing a bunch of stuff out of the deck to play. Oh well.

But, you can see me in the video! Huzzah!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12Xb7...layer_embedded

-Matt

hi guys, what do you think of the banning of mystical tutor, would help us a lot i would think, is anyone allready thinking of adjusting his board accordingly`?

i still have my 4 thorn of amethyst in the board, but since combo will now become less popular i think i can devote those slots for other mathups

could anyone list to me all the matchups that The Rock has generally problems against, so i can do a little thinking which cards would be the best suited for these slots

maybe needle, maybe .... don't know

Mystical Tutor has replacements, so combo and Reanimator are not going to just "fall off the radar," so to speak. Personal tutor, Lim Dul's Vault, and a few others are already replacing Mystical Tutor. I wouldn't drop the slots from your board just yet. They are 2/5 decks to beat, you know.

This does help us, however. It makes combo and Reanimator, a) less consistent, b) not as fast. This is a very good thing. We can now prey on this by either getting more disruption in to take the combo apart, or get there for enough beats to make a resolved Ad Nauseum or Reanimate very risky. Does this help us? Most definitely. Put the combo hate back in the crap box? I don't think so.

For bad matchups, the Rock is horrible against very fast Aggro combined with Burn, namely Zoo, and for some builds, Goblins. How do we deal with it? Kitchen Finks is ridic against Zoo, as is Sphere of Law, Engineered Plague (against Goblins), and a few others. There's not much you can do about this because the Rock is designed to crush Aggro-Control, Countertop, Merfolk (at times), and every other midrange deck. We're weak to Combo and Burn, but I still think that leaves us in a better position than we were a week ago :D

-Matt

actually i do not think finks are enough for the zo or goblin matchup, actually i was able to land 2 finks in one game, but both simply got paths against zoo, against goblins they are way better.
a card that would crush zoo and burn would be pulse of the fields, actually if some sideboard slots would open up i thought of playing it as a 2 of, it would help a lot against these two matchups, specially because its instant too
otherwise i was thinking of adding the stoneforge mystic package instead of confidant because more and more i get dissatisfied with confidant, and the equipment package would again help with our problematic mathups by gaining life with jitte and SoLaS, and shooting down all those small goblins with SoFaI and jitte
plus with the equipment package almost every creature we have is becoming a serious thread, cause we can just walk through without even caring about opponents creatures (except goyf, but even opponents goyfs will be smaller than ours if ours is equipt)

and i think i will replace my inquisitions of kozilek/thoughtsieze with cabal theraphys (right now playing 3/3 split of inquisition and thoughtsieze)
the theraphy woulb be extremely strong with finks and witness if i can recurr them with SoLaS

what would you think of these ideas?

I personally don't like the equipment route, as it has to be built around. If you're building A stoneforge Mystic Rock, then go for it, as there are many advantages to it. But, I wouldn't say go stick some Mystics into any Rock deck and you'll automatically win.

Finks isn't enough, but it does help the matchup against Zoo considerably. I'm not saying I love losing to Zoo, but there's only so much you can do to shore up bad matchups. I'd say add Chalice of the Void in the board , as Chalice on 1 basically screws them over until they hit Pridemage. I've found when I ran Chalice and Needle in the board, it was all I basically needed (Needle on Pridemage, Chalice on 1/2)

Pulse of the Fields seems interesting, but it's double white to play, which may be a bit tricky (at least for me). But, if you're already running Stoneforge, I'm assuming double white isn't going to be a huge deal.

-Matt

i will try to adjust my decklist a bit, and later on i will be posting my current list (though its still in testing phase), but i have to say that my sideboard will probably be just a pile of cards

so, here is my current list i am testing

3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Tombstalker
2 Eternal Witness

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

list is still not optimised, what would you suggest? (the singleton tombstalker could also be the 3rd witness)

Personally, I like the list. However, I despise Stoneforge Mystic (for my own reasons, mind you), but in this build, it looks pretty great. First thing I'd say is get rid of the Ravnica duals. Two reasons: They'll be rotating out of Extended in 3 months, so cash out now while you can. Second: Revised duals are much better, and their prices have stabilized. Savannah and Scrublands in played condition can be picked up for ~$30 (NM will be 35ish) and Bayous are ~$35. They'll always hold their value, and they'll improve your consistency quite significantly. Also, you won't die to Zoo as easily.

Other than that, keep the singleton Tombstalker, it can be a real surprise in the middle or the end of the game. Plus, he can't be removed as easily (he's black, you know), and sometimes you won't get, or will have used your 2 Eternal Witnesses.

I like your list, it's a little more aggro oriented. I may steal this and substitute my own changes in :P

-Matt

I think this deck's woes against fast-aggro are somewhat overstated: I faced Goblins twice in Atlanta, winning both matches with this list:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridgemage
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Serra Avenger
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Basilisk Collar (!)
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
7 Fetch
7 Dual
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

SB:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Extirpate
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Kitchen Finks

Kitchen Finks are indeed a beautiful thing, but Stoneforge for Jitte was astounding against Gobs as well.
Obviously I need to test my updated list against Zoo before Columbus, but some things I'll be looking into are 'How painful is losing equipment to Pridemage,' and 'How awesome is Mom against a deck of like 20+ percent point removal?' I can imagine boarding Thoughtseize out for another Jitte and either Finks or Path to Exile (my post B/R board is in flux). Thoughts?

Another match-up I'm wondering about is New Horizons. I've only played against it once, and I lost both post-board games in part to my own careless plays. Still, our fragile manabase is vulnerable, my list is especially susceptible to Explosives at two, and their Knights are often just bigger thanks to Horizon Canopy, plus their Terravores tend to outclass our smaller dudes.
Before the B/R list change, I'd actually made up my mind to try boarding Aven Mindcensor to weaken their Knights (as well as diversify my curve against Explosives and give me an airborne equipment-carrier; you know, in addition to slapping fetchlands, Entomb, Infernal Tutor, Survival of the Fittest, Goblin Matron, Enlightened and of course Mystical Tutor all across the mouth).
Anyway, thoughts on the match-up and boarding for it?
And at what point do ya'll figure New Horizons gets big enough it's no longer worth it for us to run Wasteland? If their Knights are bigger, they're checking the format's manabase better than we are, and our Wastelands are just exposing to further Stifle shenanigans and boosting their Terravores, I think it's a valid question.

Last thing for now: the buzz is that 43-lands and Death&Taxes both stand to game from the B/R shift. Where's that put us?

Have fun.
-Dan

It depends on the build that's dying to Gobbos. My build runs a higher, more controlling curve, and therefore is a tad weaker to Goblins. The aggro oriented Rock builds, as you said, won't have a ton of problems.

As for New Horizons, I've faced the decks a few times. Stifle is annoying, but we usually pack more removal than they have counters. It's more worrying about when they have more responses than you have answers. I think the key to this matchup is blowing up their crap, like Crucible. Terravore is also a huge problem, but both Terravore, Tarmogoyf, and KoTR both have zero protection in that deck; they're not running Crop Rotation into Sejiri Steppe, or some shenanigans like that. I think as long as you keep the pressure on with your own creatures, and hose their yard post-board, you should be alright. I'm running Knight and Bog main, so it isn't too bad.

Mind you, running three EE isn't great for any deck to face, but you just have to make it undesirable for them to blow it. If you're running a ton of 3-drop threats like they are, chances are the Explosives aren't going to go off (as far as I know, they don't run Stronghold or Eternal Witness like we do). I'm more concerned about a Stifle on my Deed, or a Stifle on a key KoTR search.

Regarding Mindcensor, the guy is a freaking house. I was playing him in my Armageddon Stax board, and he was king. I like the idea of him in the board for your build. Give it a try and tell us how it is :P

-Matt