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I've come to the realization that there is life after Ravager also. I've been fiddling around with thopter foundry and have come to like 1/1 creatures more than +1/+1 counters with the addition of Signal Pest. I'm trying to justify Etched Champion (cause he can be really awesome) and I may go to a 1 of, but is it worth it? Ditch the lone Champion for another Foundry? (I'm running 2 right now). Can't post decklist now, too drunk...
He won.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1maarten1
does someone have the list, i would love to take a look and maybe give it a try
Here you go:Quote:
Originally Posted by AggroSteve
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=37278
I played in a 30-man tournament last Saturday ending up 3rd with 4-1 record. Here's a list and a very brief walkthrough of the tournament and my choices:
Affjizz
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Vault of Whispers
4x Seat of the Synod
2x Glimmervoid
1x Blinkmoth Nexus
1x Ancient Den
4x Memnite
2x Ornithopter
4x Signal Pest
4x Disciple of the Vault
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Etched Champion
3x Myr Enforcer
3x Mox Opal
3x Springleaf Drum
3x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4x Thoughtcast
4x Cranial Plating
2x Thopter Foundry
sideboard:
4x Pithing Needle
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Engineered Plague
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Echoing Truth
Mainboard there's pretty much nothing spectacular. I don't know what is with the trend of cutting Ravagers as I've rarely glimpsed what has been played in major tournaments, but if someone would kindly explain, I'd be intrigued. Sideboard Needles are obvious, same with Nihil and probably Truths. Good against this and that. Cabals and Plagues were a metachoice. I anticipated decks with Null Rods and Fishtails, but I got lucky and there were almost none of 'em. Anyway, Pests were uninteresting IMHO, I ended up siding them out every game. They do have decent synergy with Tezz and Plating but still, underwhelming. I'm keeping them though as there really aren't anything to rival them in 1cc spot.
1st Match Opalescense deck
This is pretty much for fun, so I have nearly no trouble as my threats are too many and too fast. First game Champion-Plating beat, second game he manages to lock my guys with Propaganda and Prison, but I get Tezz after scouting his hand for counters with Cabal and finish him with Tezz ulti as he has no answers.
1-0 (2-0)
2nd Match LED Dredge
I start with 2 lands, random and 3 Ravagers. As he has a bit slow start, I manage to remove his Bridges with Ravagers with no problems. Pests -> Nihils and Truths. Second game he dredges me down, cabaling my truth and removing my threats. Third game he mulligans as do I keeping a hand with Foundry, land, Thopter and Ravager. He breakthroughs, but draws blanks (2 LED discarded for instance). I get my Foundry online and start slowly building advantageous position. After some unlucky dredging I remove his Bridges thinning his chances considerably and as he is unable to get green mana for Grudges I end up victor.
2-0 (4-1)
3rd Match *Amnesia*
My mind is blank here, but I think I won straight.
3-0 (6-1)
4th Match UW Caw
This one was very interesting. At first I thought this was a simple UW, but as no Seers, Mothers or WW:s appear I'm kinda puzzled. Doing decently I keep aggroing as he counters my Platings and Tezzies. After that Stoneforge appears, getting the feared Jitte and then the real surprise unveils as he Vials in Squadron Hawk. With my limited flyers I get pretty anxious. I keep attacking because I feel that is the best thing to do. Alas, he has a good variety of combat tricks up his sleeve and ends up killing most of my big guys taking only a few points of dmg. With no answers to his Jitte we continue to the next. I side in Cabals and Needles against his Jitte, but I draw none of 'em and my good hand with Foundry (countered) does not enough dmg as he gets his Hawks and Jitte online.
3-1 (6-3)
5th Match LEDless dredge
This should be a cakewalk, as his dredge is so much slower. Nothing spectacular happens as he doesn't get to combo his tokens in fast enough due to my sac outlets. Second game he fails to find anything relevant via Breakthrough and dredge, so I beat him with my first turn Plating+thopter down pretty fast.
Final Record: 4-1 (8-3)
UW Caw wins the whole thing grabbing full set of Flooded Strands, my third match opponent ends up second with 4 Deltas and I end up third earning myself a second full set of Wooded Foothills. Nothing else to say, so I end this here. Do comment if you please.
intresting report... i was wondering how you felt about tezzeret, thopter foundry, and specially with no frogmites (would be the first card i would miss in any affinity deck)
Notice that the Affinity decks that have top 8ed at SCGs this year have featured either Ravager/Disciple with no Tezz or Tezz with no Ravager/Disciple. I think that these are the two archetypes of Affinity: Ravager Affinity and Tezzeret Affinity. The two cards do not have very good synergy with one another, so you should not be playing both. Ravager's sac ability reduces the number of artifacts that you have on the board and makes it harder to hit the 2UB you need to cast Tezz. Without Tezz, you don't feel bad about gobbling up extra lands, drums, etc. with your Ravager. With Tezz, you want to leave enough mana to cast him with you draw him, so you have to hold back with your Ravager. A lesser argument is that Ravager also weakens Tezz's ultimate (although you are probably winning if you get to Tezz's ultimate regardless).
The Ravager Affinity builds tend to be faster. They avoid high casting cost spells such as Tezz and MoE and they typically splash red for Galvanic Blast. Tezzeret Affinity runs 1-2 extra mana sources and some of the bigger spells.
I think your analysis on Tezz vs. Ravager is on point but there's a lot builds that runs Master of Etherium without Tezz. About MoE : he's concidered slow but depending on the build he swings turn 3 as a 6/6 (or more) most of time.
I remember casting Tezz four-five times. Twice it was countered, once it won me the game (first match, second game), against UW Caw I used him to buff my Mox Opal into a guy and go for full attack ending up facerolled and lastly I probably had him in my hand with enough mana to cast, but I think I didn't bother casting him as I already won that turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by AggroSteve
Thopter Foundry is one of my fav cards. It has the potential to carry me to victory in case of bad draws or it just ensures me solid board advantage. I replaced Frogs with Pests, I recall that one of my friends told that some top8 list had done so, so I wanted to test them also. I haven't much thought of them since, my hands, draws and plays have been working pretty nicely after all. I also don't know what to cut for them. Running 2 or 3 Frogs feel a bit futile for me, as years ago the rule of thumb was that Frogs are automatically 4-off, any less was considered simply dumb. I don't know how to put it as a good argument, so I'll just say this: " Less than 4 frogs? Nah, it's all or nothing."
Justin:
Ty for that piece of info, though I slightly disagree a bit about this:" The two cards do not have very good synergy with one another, so you should not be playing both."
They do have quite a bit antisynergy between them, but IMO not enough for one to automatically exclude the other. They both can win games almost on their own and they both do similar things: deliver gas and buff guys. I think it more likely depends on how one plays with Ravager. I use him only when necessary, I rarely go for the everything or nothing -plan, sacrificing everything for the one dude getting through even if the chances of winning through that move would be extremely good. There's a few more points I had, but I failed to translate it properly in English so that it wouldn't sound like gibberish and my mind is wandering in other dimensions atm ^^
In any case, I've rarely had any problems on casting Tezz. In a deck full of threats and potential threats, I feel Tezz is just that one more greatly required horsepower that makes the deck race out or at least catch up others and should always be included. Although, I consider myself as an average player that plays Legacy once or twice in a month with nearly no playtesting, so I feel I kinda lack.. how to put this... credibility in the evidence of nearly non-existent data, in this matter. So if someone has more reliable data on how these two work out together, I'd be happy to know.
I think that if Affintiy continues to make Top8's, Energy Flux and or Null Rod will have a comeback for sure. I mean the deck does so many unfair stuff, especially in the early turns that you are nearly forced to have very effective sb Slots for it (like Dredge). If that is the case, it would be time to think about playing Spell Pierce/REB or better Krosan Grip to avoid a blowout. Normally you are able due to acceleration via MOX and Drum to cast it fast enough even on the draw IMO. Thoughtseize can Fix this also and is more flexible at picking cards that bother the deck and I really dunno what is the way to go here... .
Thoughts?
I think that if the field starts packing null rods, etc... tezz builds will be more resilient
You make a good point. Obviously, Ravager and Tezz are both good cards and your success in your most recent tourney shows that you can win while playing both cards. Nevertheless, I would personally prefer to play a Tezz build without Ravager. There are some compelling reasons to cut Ravager (or at least test without him).Quote:
Originally Posted by Minkkiq
1) Cutting Ravager also means cutting Disciple and this frees up eight slots. Those slots can fairly easily be filled with all the quality new cards that we've gotten over the last year.
2) Cutting Disciple allows us to up our artifact count.
3) Ravager, once the MVP of the deck, has lost a lot of potency with the M10 rules changes (no more damage on the stack) and the fact that nobody plays Arcbound Worker anymore. Ravager is still good, but is no longer an auto-include.
4) As I mentioned earlier, the anti-synergy with Tezz
5) As mentioned by MoonDark, Ravager is shut off my Null Rod, but Tezz is not.
Here are a couple things that would compel me to play Ravager again. 1) If the modular mechanic comes back in the third Mirrodin set and gives us some playable guys to play with him. 2) If the new set gives us a playable artifact that can sac artifacts for free. Atog really doesn't cut it anymore. I always thought that a second artifact creature (or artifact) to combo with Disciple would make Ravager Affinity strong again. Thopter Foundry fills this role to some extent, although you have to pay 1 mana to sacrifice, so you don't get the insta-win feeling with Disciple that you get with Ravager.
I've been testing out the post MBS Affinity and I like it a lot. Etched Champion is really a house vs anything aggro. The list I've settled on it a bit different from most I've seen here. I've cut both enforcers and frogmites in favor of Master and Champion. Vanilla 2/2 and 4/4 just don't do enough, even if they are free or 1-2 mana. I haven't missed them yet. To compensate, I'm running 17 lands, and 3 each of Mox Opal and Drum. As a result, I'm almost never mana screwed and can often power out Master or Champion turn 2. Another card I've loved using is Thopter Foundry. It's an additional sac outlet that makes use of mana flood and unlike ravager it doesn't eat away our artifact count for plating and Master. Late game it's one of the best cards you can draw against both control and aggro. My testing has proved favorable matchups against Zoo, Bant, and Goblins (as these are decks I have). Merfolk is a bit harder and Death and Taxes is difficult if they run Revokers main. Anyhow, here's my list:
3 Ornithopter
3 Memnite
3 Mox Opal
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Signal Pest
3 Springleaf Drum
4 Arcbound Ravage
4 Cranial Plating
3 Thopter Foundry
4 Etched Champion
4 Master of Etherium
4 Thoughtcast
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Ancient Den
2 Great Furnace
4 Vault of Whispers
3 Darksteel Citadel
2 Glimmervoid
I've been testing the 4x Tezz Build that won the recent tourney.
The build is a house, but I can't really beat High Tide combo with it. The only two decks that have defeated me today in MTGO where High Tide combo decks...
Tezz is too slow to beat it, so for SB I went something like -4 Tezz -2 Enforcers +3 Thoughtseize +3 Canonist, still no luck.
I really feel that mainboard disruption like Thoughtseize instead of Tezz could help this match, ( maybe pack 4x in SB ? )
Has anyone else tested this match ?
Yeah, that's a given - especially Null Rod, because it's easier to cast and harder to fight against.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher
Krosan Grip is slow and doesn't do much against resolved Null Rod (it doesn't really help against resolved Energy Flux either) unless you have it in your hand already and can float mana in response. REB does nothing against Null Rod, our most feared enemy. Spell Pierce might work but considering that notable anti-Affinity cards are either artifacts (Null Rod) or enchantments (Energy Flux; also Aura of Silence, which works as anti-Enchantress hate at the same time) and Spell Pierce doesn't work against Kataki anyway, it could be better to just run postboard Annuls instead, along with Thoughtseizes.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher
I question how good the synergy between Ravager and Thopter Foundry is.Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
It's not so much synergy with each other, but that they are both sac outlets. They both have synergy with Disciple and are both ways to get rid of extra lands. They also serve slightly different purposes. Ravager is certainly a lot more aggressive and is usually only used to kill with Disciple or make a huge Champion. Thopter Foundry is a more late game card when your threats are low or need to play control/survive and (probably) have a huge amount of random mana artifacts/lands sitting around. It's also quite awesome with Master of Etherium; army of flying 2/2's is nothing to scoff at.Additionally, thopter tokens can still be sacced again to Ravager. The only thing I would warn about when playing Foundry is watch out for Engineered Explosives.
I feel like Ravager is more and more becoming a tool, rather than a main beater in the deck. It saves us from removal, gets rid of excess lands, and gives us an almost instant win with Disciple or Champion. When it comes to beaters, evasive creatures (including Champion) and monstrous Master are much better. Same reason why I've cut Frogmites and Enforcers.
I've got to admit that I doubted Tezz's potential in this deck. I'm sort of glad to be proven wrong since it is a really powerful card regardless. Blake's list sure is pretty. Expensive, but pretty.
Also, I like how despite the evolution of this deck, 12 non-artifact cards is still the correct number.
I'd say anywhere from 44 - 48 artifacts in a deck is perfectly fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pltnmngl
Is glimpse affinity a different topic? or do people just not play it as much as normal affinity?
Judging from this year's SCG Opens, there seem to be 3 main ways to build Affinity nowadays:Quote:
Originally Posted by xMethodicalx
1) Glimpse Affinity (UBGw) - probably the most explosive, but highly dependant on Glimpse of Nature.
2) Classic Affinity (UBRw, sometimes just UBw) - quite similar and very explosive as well, but usually running Galvanic Blasts instead of Glimpses.
3) Tezzeret Affinity (UBw) - running new Tezzerets instead of Ravagers and Disciples, thus sacrificing some speed for a better lategame.