Why are we even considering swords for this deck? Isn't the point to put pressure and make their life totals go away quickly?
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Why are we even considering swords for this deck? Isn't the point to put pressure and make their life totals go away quickly?
With that exact same logic, opponents of this deck should never crack their fetchlands either since they are trading life for land. Hot damn this deck just got a lot better!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragofireheart
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Originally Posted by xycsoscyx
I think the major points I wanted to make about this have already been voiced by lavafrogg and especially JustCurious. Since that did not seem to finish the conversation, I am back to what I said at the getgo. I am confident that STP is the better choice for this deck as well as the better choice in all but the smallest of corner cases (such as wanting to PtE your own guys for land a lot in a particular deck or if you actually want your opponent to get lands into play for some reason), and that time will make that clear to all.Quote:
Originally Posted by me
But the general gist remains that life as a resource is easy come, easy go. Mana as a resource is far, far more valuable in every part of the game except for the damage that kills you. And even then, it was the mana available to your enemy that made it possible in almost all circumstances. That is why Healing Salve is garbage and Dark Ritual is amazing. In this case, the opponent does net get mana though. He gets a land so the mana keeps coming back. He even gets to pick which one. So that means the opponent gets options. And that sucks for you a whole lot worse than the life he might be getting. There really is no comparison.
When Path to Exile was printed, I also thought that it would always be worse than Swords for reasons already stated. Giving them a land should be worse than giving them life, but It's really not that cut and dry in this deck. Some of the biggest threats against this deck like Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, and Dreadnought, are going to give them a hefty dose of life. That life is going to matter against this deck, because you're playing burn spells. The most affected being Fireblast. If you're playing Swords (and Pridemage) as your only outs to Dreadnought, being forced to use it on that 12/12 actually sets you back a bunch, whereas Path would be a much welcomed change. Early game, PTE is definitely worse than STP, but seeing as it is our only answer to fat creatures and should be used as such, Giving them a basic land is probably better than the lifegain at that point. It's not like you're giving them any more threats, you're just making it easier to cast them, and alot of the time they didn't need the help anyway. Giving an opponent another draw step with some free lifegain is more dangerous, imo.
Yes, I will agree that the 12 life swing is bad. A 5 or 6 life swing is not. If a card was printed that said "your creatures deal no combat damage this turn. Remove target creature from the game" It would still be worse than swords to plowshares.
Giving the opponent land is never the correct play. You swords their nought, they gain twelve...life goes on. You swing for howevermuch and in a turn or two you are in the same position. You answered their threat on a 1-1 basis.
You path their nought, they get a land you just 1-2 yourself(which is bad) they untap, and draw a card freom a library that was just shuffled and has one less land in it. They also have one more land then they should and if they make their landdrop they are a land ahead of you for free. This means they have moe mana to cast more spells, like the cantrips to find the next nought or the EE to sweep your board.
This game is based on randomness and chance and you are increasing the chance for basd things to happen to you. You want to minimize your opponents chances of playing their mid to late game things because you do not have mid to late game strategies in your deck. No, jitte and knight do not count as late game cards. Zoo is about as close to an earlygame deck as you can find in this format on par with goyf sligh.
Some decks play 11 one drops, all of them with 2-3 power so 5 life is only a turn or 2 away even less if you have 2+ or a goyf on the board.
The reason that swords is the best removal ever printed is that it does not change the board position and that it does not give card advantage to your opponent.
All of this isnt even talking about the minute chance that you would ever cast path to exile on one of your own dudes to get a basic land and the extremely relevant chance of casting swords on your own creature to "counter" a fatal burn spell or to outlive a tendrils for just lethal, or even "swords my dude, Ill take 6""untap, swing, gg?"
The point I am trying to make is even when Path is a 1 mana remove target from the game thats it spell, you still lose the ability to gain life yourself which is a relevant ability in close fought games.
But it's extremely rare that one would be Exiling 2-3 power creatures on turn 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manhattan
Almost all these lists pack 8-12+ burn spells that can take care of 2-3 power guys, and Nacatl/Ape can answer these creatures as well. The white removal for the most part is there to deal with the larger mid game guys, granted sometimes there are huge Goyfs in the early game, but in those cases the opponent is going to be gaining alot of life off Swords to Plowshares. The only match up I really feel Path is subpar to Swords is against Goblins, and that's a very lopsided match up to begin with.
So having your Swords to Plowshares double Time Walk you is better than your Path to Exile providing a free Rampant Growth!???! Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Except that you still get to draw a card, untap, play a land, further your development and make intelligent desicions yes it is exactly like getting double time walked. Your logic is infalable.
Except for the fact that it means nothing. If your fear is that your opponent draws nothing but gas then by the same logic they could draw nothing and you can draw gas which invalidates your argument. Anything can happen but swords reduces the chances of really bad things happening to you as compared to path.
Even through your logic path is much more loke a free time walk for your opponent in that they get to find(draw) and play a land for zero mana, and zero cards.
Yea it was a joke.
With this deck giving you're opponent more turns is generally a bad thing. Especially once the tables start to shift out of your favor in the mid-game. The deck thrives on the early game, it gains very little the further into the game it goes, where many other decks look to stabilize in the mid game and take advantage of the late game.
Giving an opponent a land does in some ways push the game further into the late game, but only in terms of mana development, where Swords providing full additional turns in some cases gives most decks more advantage than the land would.
So when it's turn 5-6 and you're in a position to try to alpha strike and finish them off, clearing a blocker with Path gives them no immediate benefit, clearing it with Swords may negate the alpha strike.
Or if you are both at relatively low life, and they have a Tombstalker and a Goyf or something, swinging the board position without screwing putting them out of swing + burn spell range can be huge.
I just feel like past turn 5-6 there isn't much board developement to be gained by the Zoo player, where alot of other decks do gain access to more plays by having the additional turns, things like Vedalken Shackles, Firespout with mana available to answer a follow up threat.
And additionally some of the biggest creature hurdles for the deck to get around are Tombstalker, Dreadnought and opposing Goyfs all of which provide a huge chunk of life when they are plowed. IE while Path is a 2 for 1 in the sense they get a land and the spell from hand, in exchange for a guy, a Swords to Plowshares is a 2 for 1 vs anything with power >3 since it gets the removal spell and counteracts a Bolt in exchange for the creature.
The logic on this thread is pretty underwhelming, folks. Anyone thinking to himself right now that life gain is in any way remotely like receiving a time walk needs to stop regurgitating what you have been told and begin thinking for yourself.Quote:
So having your Swords to Plowshares double Time Walk you is better than your Path to Exile providing a free Rampant Growth!???! Really?
I heard they're going to restrict Healing Salve in vintage. It's like a time walk at instant speed and half the price. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
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Originally Posted by Finn
Lets make up make-believe situations in favor of Path if we are going to do it for Swords.
Zoo vs Ichorid.
Situation.
An Ichorid is in the way and unless you alpha strike now with your 4/5 Gofy and 3/3 Cat, you lose. They have 7 life left.
Swords: You swords the ichorid, they go to 10, you attack, they go to 3, they go off next turn, you lose.
Path: You path the ichorid, you swing, they die, you win!
Oh, and some decks like TT don't even run basics, making Path to Exile more appealing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
And if the opponent is able to take advantage of the tempo from the land you gave them, then you probably weren't going to win anyways. However, swords is counter-productive to the point of Zoo: fast, hard hitting critters with reach to finish the opponent. What good is that reach when your removal is making them gain life? Dismissing the life gain as if it would not affect the outcome is ignorant.
Reading for the win? I don't see why you think I'm arguing in favor of swords. I'm was just trying to dispel the idea that some decks don't run basic lands as being a worthwhile point of consideration in the swords vs. path debate. We can say all we want that these drawbacks aren't really drawbacks, and indeed they're not always game-breaking. However, we just need to be aware that they are drawbacks, and can make the difference in some games.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheartAnd if the opponent is able to take advantage of the tempo from the land you gave them, then you probably weren't going to win anyways. However, swords is counter-productive to the point of Zoo: fast, hard hitting critters with reach to finish the opponent. What good is that reach when your removal is making them gain life? Dismissing the life gain as if it would not affect the outcome is ignorant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
So because you like the card, I can't discuss it with you?
No, it's fine. Sorry, I didn't quite get the tone of your post when I read it the first time. Since you quoted me I thought that you were trying to agrue with me to not ignore the drawback of swords, when really you were just continuing my idea, but using swords to say that we shouldn't forget that the life is a drawback as well.
EDIT: Also, I deleted the wrong post above. I fail at multitasking today.
Exactly. I was pointing out that Path's drawback sometimes will not come into play, while swords will nearly always give life (minus random creatures like Doran).Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
But no, I wasn't ignoring Path weakness, but merely trying to garner support for it in this deck since I believe it's superior to swords when aiming for the alpha kill.
Best part is the fact that we have the choice of path OR swords. I'm sure there is some deck out there that would love 8-sword effects.
For me, STP is way better because of the mono colored aggro plans used here. PTE would have been nice when Blood Moon and Magus were "GG, next game please" strategies because it would be "W - Instant - Exile target creature" which is better than exiling it and them gaining life.
But the DTB section has been getting more weenie-esque. Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo, etc. All of those play a significant amount of basics, so Path to Exile against these decks are more useless than tits on a bull.
Both have advantages in some scenarios, but in a blind meta, stick to STP.
@chokin
On the contrary, against these weenie decks the extra land provided by PtE is not helpful past turn 3-4. Merfolk and Goblins mostly rely on AEther Vial which handles their creatures, while the Zoo mirror is more dictated by creature removal than tempo. Considering that the white removal is one of the first to be played out to give your red removal the dream of finishing your opponent, I'd say that PtE actually makes this task of "Win right now!" possible.
Swords on the other hand, would cancel a red burn spell most likely, and cause you to spend another card to return your opponent to the same life total. PtE, on the other hand, puts a land into play tapped, giving you at least 1/2 turn to have card parity.
I would rather stick with PtE than gain my opponent life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
Also, I believe Zoo just stomps the shit out of Goblins and Merfolk anyways.
Thought I might clear this up. While I'm not arguing StP over Path (although I lean towards StP), I welcome path with open arms when I'm playing goblins. The deck is mana intensive, people argue for 24 lands and Eldariel argues for 25. Giving goblins land is not good. Obviously your post was somewhat mocking (like the goblins matchup...) but still. StP>Path vs. goblins and really it's irrelevant anyways because you should win anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
@ rukcus: Yes of course, because goblins plays aether vial every game, especially with all those counters in zoo.... No, the deck does not rely on aether vial, and goblin lackey is obviously horrible against zoo and would not really dictate any goblin player's mulligan decisions. The deck needs its lands especially against zoo. Giving the deck lands not only allows more pricy goblins being cast (in comparison to zoo and most other legacy decks), it allows more liberal use of wastelands and ports. Giving lands to goblins is BAD. 1-3 life (and 3 is pushing it) is honestly not going to make a difference in that matchup, either goblin card advantage will win in an attrition war (doubtful) or zoo will just stomp over them (most of the time).
hey guys,
I'm trying a build like this one. I'm not sure if this should be in the goyf sligh topic, but whatever.
By the way, my meta is FILLED with deck running a playset of FOW (Merfolk, Survival with blue, and treshes) By the way, there is not any combo deck. Mainly Control and aggro deck.
creature
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Vexing Shusher
4 Quasali Pridemage
Other Spells
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
land
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Plain
1 Forest
5 Mountain
2 Plateau
3 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard
4 REB
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Krosan Grip
1 Vexing Shusher