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Seems like this deck can beat Cb-lists efficiently afterall from time to time:
<aetg> this game was absurd and i wasted my time
<aetg> don't join again
<System> Player Lost
Spell snare might be usefull against Eva green, merfolks, CB, goyfs, ANT.. But I won't remove the Pierces, they are just way to awesome..
Maybe, if you can fit the snares in one way or another, it might be worth a try. Just don't replace the Pierces for snares ;)
I played Aaron Wayne on Sunday (and cut him out of t8 - sorry bro!) and I've gotta say this is probably my new favorite deck in Legacy.
I just played against enchantress with this deck. Game one, I won. Game 2, I actually lock him out. I'm writing this in here even though I don't usually describe games against random MWSers because it illustrates how to lock the opponent out, even if he's playing stax/enchantress.
I sideboarded out 4 moms, 4 swords, for 3 ET, 2 aura, 1 thorn, 1 Ethersworn, 1 grunt
I opened with no blue spells, but was able to keep because it had 2 ET. I immediately get 2 auras into play, and a few turns later, I play ethersworn canonist, while he has enchantments in play prolonging his life.
Eventually, I get into a wayfarer+grunt+brainstorm/fathom seer chain, and get ridiculous card advantage. He, too is drawing many cards, though he has a solitary confinement. I stay open for hardcasting FOWs. I draw an enlightened tutor, so when he reaches to blow my aura up, instead of countering it, I just blow up his sterling grove. I get the AOS back (I play 3 ET, 2 AOS now)
I start to chain AOSs, brainstorm, FOW, but he resigns, as he's about to deck.
Usually you try to win aggro style against decks like enchantress and stax, but it's often the case that even if they drop a ghostly prison/moat, you can just lock them out, and either force a board reset (in the case of stax) or a decking(for enchantress)
I should note that if it's g1, you have to weigh time into consideration, but for me it was g2 while I had already won g1, so it was undoubtedly the best move to play it out.
@pi4meterftw
How do you play the deck when your opponent just plays around the wasteland softlock ? Like against bant when he just limit his lands to 2 basic lands and casts several noble and use it as his source of mana to generate an army.
It's not a mana denial deck. This actually doesn't pose any problems that we have to do anything in particular about.
Spell snare is even worse than usual bad cards in that it tries to look good by deceptively suggesting 1:2 tempo, while in reality you don't always get to use it, and you probably end up wasting more mana staying open for it even when you do get to use it. Spell pierce doesn't pretend to be a tempo boost. It's just something that ensures UW tempo doesn't lose stochastically, among other things, to "oops I win" strategies. It also trades 1:1 with something close to the best spell in your opponent's hand, so it's a slight increase in card quality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
Spell snare is terrible. So is kor skyfisher. Also foil is bad, etc.
So far, the strongest suggestions I've seen have been sideboard calls, and those only if the poster had a reasonably unusual metagame.
If your meta is aggro heavy would you think this deck would do well ?
Wasteland, Wayferor trix into wasteland, daze, and spell pierce would like to have a word with you Jeff.Quote:
It's not a mana denial deck.
I just doubled checked and none of my cards "would like to have a word with [me]."Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
They're just sitting in my deck box, waiting to do their thing.
Why would this deck be a mana denial deck? That'd be retarded. This deck is a deck that generates tempo and card advantage, and then trades all of it for a crippling endgame. Mana denial decks have a horrid end game.
Jeff your right and i'm wrong. wasteland, spell pierce, daze, and w.w. have nothing to do with a deck that involves or is centered around resource denial.Quote:
I just doubled checked and none of my cards "would like to have a word with [me]."
They're just sitting in my deck box, waiting to do their thing.
Why would this deck be a mana denial deck? That'd be retarded. This deck is a deck that generates tempo and card advantage, and then trades all of it for a crippling endgame. Mana denial decks have a horrid end game.
-PI Joe I see what your saying now. :)
Jeff's comparing this deck's mana denial suite to say, Dragon Stompy's, Eva Green's (the sinkhole version), or Tempo Threshold's. Those decks are based on the assumption that the land denial is crippling. If the Blood Moon "whiffs" because the opponent has two basics in hand, you'll probably lose. Even though Blood Moon still has some effect (maybe it blanks one or two cards of your opponent's), it's not nearly as much as you needed if your opponent can survive it and keep playing.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo
You need a lot of effect because 1) you're playing a deck that makes a lot of sacrifices in order to run Blood Moon, and 2) it probably cost you at least two cards to get the Blood Moon onto the table (say SSG or Chrome Mox plus the Blood Moon, plus it cost a full turn to play it out). Unless it does very heavy damage, like +3 card advantage or better, the Blood Moon wasn't effective.
With UW Tempo: The land denial suite can cripple many opponents easily, but what separates UW Tempo from other decks is that the land denial suite and overall gameplan isn't junk when the opponent dodges it.
Wayfarer: it's nice if it wins the game instantly, but we didn't invest many resources in casting it and we can still get a great use out of it. At worst it cost W and we still got a 1/1 out of it which is very useful if we get Jitte out. But in reality it's almost always better than eager cadet even if the opponent plays around wastelands. The ability to fetch lands that we want is useful: it dramatically improves Brainstorm quality, thins the deck, yadda yadda. Even if the opponent runs all basics, Wayfarer is still a pretty good card.
Daze and Spell Pierce: same thing. Very good cards, they're better if we can cripple the opponent's lands, but even without land denial they're still very useful cards, and I don't really attribute any dependence. Maybe a synergy, but I would still play Daze/Spell Pierce if the deck didn't have Wasteland at all.
So the other card you mentioned: Wasteland. If the opponent has all-basics, it is not a good card. It still taps for 1, and then you can use it to sac your own non-basics if your opponent Pops or has a Lord of Atlantis, so it's not useless, but still not very useful. But now there are two important points: The first is: I'd still MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH rather have Wasteland than Blood Moon in this situation. The second is that there aren't any decks that run all basics. Death and Taxes has Karakous (and actually relies on it), Merfolk leans heavily on Mutavault, especially under Wasteland (and the only colorless Merfolk dodging mother of runes). All decks "fetching basics" imply that they'd rather fetch a non-basics and could presumably draw implied non-basic.
If you'd like to see an example click the link in my signature. Watch UW Tempo vs. Landstill Game 3 parts 1 and 2. My opponent fetches/plays 5 basics in a row, reducing the effectiveness of my Wastelands, and he gets absolutely blown out by a Weathered Wayfarer anyway.
Disclaimer: I haven't played this particular deck, so I might be spewing useless rubbish.
Considering the surge of Reanimator/shrouded fat, Iona, Shield of Emeria and Progenitus (should any of them land, isn't it basicly a game loss?), have you guys tried out Juxtapose in the sideboard - I'd imagine stealing a Progenitus with Juxtapose would be the coolest win ever in history in magic simply due to the look on your opponents face.
I suppose the ability to also steal an artifact can be useful at times too.
If this has already been discussed and/or tried, I'm sorry.
I'd rather pay 3+2 mana for vesuvan shapeshifter that can still be useful in other situations than pay 4 mana for a sorcery that is only relevant in a few matchups and doesn't do much for you outside of those situations.
Vesuvan will copy the legendary shrouded fatty, and they'll both blow up. Otherwise it beats as a 2/2 morph, combos with fathom seer, and at worst can be an expensive goyf.
This is all assuming you can't counter the fatty or the means they used to cheat it into play.
Hey Matt and Jeff. Iv been keeping up with this deck for a while now, ever since I played jeff at the 5K in Los Angeles. Dunno if you remember but I was the T.E.S player you played in round 1, Derrick Cabrera. My playtest group have included this now in our testing, and the more I play with this deck the more I believe in it. I wanted to reach out if Matt needed a sparring partner in the storm matchup, just pm me. Im not an amazing player but I very competent with the deck. Itd be cool to get some insight on the other side. THanks guys
Thanks Derrick.Quote:
Originally Posted by tgDC$
Because Spell Snare is a much more valuable card compared to Spell Pierce when half my swiss rounds and 60% possibility playing against the Top 8 will be Zoo, Merfolk and CounterbalanceTop, and almost no Combo. Against Merfolk and Zoo, I almost always board my SPs out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
Against CBTop, they will occasionally dodge the mana denial and just have a ton of lands by midgame. I will definitely have lands and Spell Snare mana out by then anyway; against Zoo, I will rarely tap out on Turn 2 for a 2cc card anyway, since most of my early game cards are 1cc, like Mom, Wayfarer, Vial and such; and against Merfolk, I can keep them off Lords and Silvergil Adepts.
But just to put this on the record, I never said Spell Snare was a better card than Spell Pierce, because Spell Snare has a specific function in my metagame which would make Spell Snare a more valuable card in that context. If I were to walk into an unknown metagame, I will definitely have Spell Pierces over Spell Snare.
I know its a little out there but has Karakas been considered? Vendillion Clique and Mangara are particularly good with it and UW Tempo could run either as a singleton. With Wayfarer to fetch out a singleton Karakas, it could be a pretty legit side strategy. Mangara is pretty good by himself (better than Clique w/ Karakas) anyway. Not to turn this into DnT or anything but the idea intrigues me because of Wayfarer. Its also worth mentioning that Karakas bounces stuff like your opponent's Iona/Akroma/etc.
Karakas is good enough against Iona and some random other stuffs to be played without any legendary creatures IMO.
Agreed.
I heard a lot of decks are considering main decking a copy to deal with Iona. I was just trying to provide more justification for it to be considered. :P
And Iona is evil.. because..?
The only matchup that will throw Iona on the board against us is Survival.deck... And maybe some kind of dredge-list.
Reanimator (that will surely increase its popularity) has Inkwell leviathan. That in game = game over if you can't race it.
Maybe Ive missed something, but Karakas doesnt seem to be worth it.