[Deck] CounterTop Thopter

The issue with misstep is that it's great in your initial hand, but in this deck it sucks after turn 3 99% percent of the time. In decks with creatures you can still use it in the midgame to defend them from removal and get a more or less quick win from there, which is nice, but here you got no creatures to defend and that's a big difference. That's why I like the card in nassif's style countertop builds but not here. Imagine you get two of them in your initial 7 and your opponent plays land-go or a weak turn 1 like ponder, you will have switched useful cards from your maindeck for a card that will do nothing or a poor 1 for 1 the whole game.
Personally, the more controllish the deck is, the less I like situational cards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arsenal

The list you referenced was http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...?Article=21286. Linking a list, then discussing something other than the linked list doesn't really help. I still don't know which list you're referring to.

Also, if we were going to be using cards regardless of Tezzeret's inclusion, that'd be one thing. Jace is a great example of being able to stick 1-2 maindeck and not altering a single thing about the deck; manabase, spell set, etc remains exactly the same. Tezzeret is the exact opposite, you need to include janky stuff like Chrome Mox/Mox Opal/Mirrodin lands in order to justify his inclusion. You also start opening yourself up to non-basic hate, something that is a major strength of traditional UWx Thopters.

I suppose the question becomes; how many games do I win using Tezz's ultimate versus how many games I lose because my opponent's non-basic hate keeping me off mana and the fact that Chrome Mox/Mox Opal are largely useless (assuming Tezz is not in play). Also, the absense of Counterbalance maindeck leaves you at a disadvantage in the mirror and against aforementioned decks.

---

i linked that list,then this past weekend the new version received press,i wasnt going to talk about the new version as i have not revieved word to do so.but once drew did a deck check it didnt matter.

I'm on the fence here regarding Misstep in Thopthers. I sadly believe however, that we HAVE to play it. If you haven't noticed, misstep is devastating against us. It shuts down Top and most importantly Enlightened tutor. Going combo heavy is no longer a good idea post Misstep because aggro decks now have a way of disrupting the combo. We need Misstep to Force through our own Spells and also to stop Vials and the like. Even if we play no targets for STP, we absolutely need it to stay on top of other quick decks.

Having said this though, the more conditional counters we run, the worst Bridge gets. Ever Slammed a bridge and then drew Spell Snare, Spell Pierce/ Force? Yup, been there. It sucks. I'm going to drop down to a Counter-top centric plan with less Combo components and concentrate on being reactive. It's back to Missteps, Counterspells and Jace FTW again.

Ivan. MM would be terrible in this deck for the reasons you mentioned. Running a card because everyone else is playing the cards isn't a reason to run a card. Your better off actually trying to play to your game plan, or rather winning the game....

You may be right but Misstep hoses us, badly! I'll test both reactive lists with Misstep and Proactive lists without Misstep. Will update with findings.

You can always play intuition over enlightened tutor to be more misstep proof

New to legacy, been lurking for a few months, etc.

If mental misstep isn't for us, what about Gitaxian Probe? Knowing if it's safe to run out your combo (CB or Thopters) seems relevant.

Gitaxian Probe doesn't make sense for this deck. Although Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry is technically a combo, it is quite slow and the life loss is relevent. This is really much more of a control deck than a combo deck. Probe works best in fast combo decks that would like to effectively thin their deck to 56 via a "free" cantrip. This deck is a toolbox deck and doesn't have room to play a card like Probe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by neckfire

i linked that list,then this past weekend the new version received press,i wasnt going to talk about the new version as i have not revieved word to do so.but once drew did a deck check it didnt matter.

---

I don't even understand what you're saying here. You linked a decklist for us to discuss. I started to discuss it. You then started to discuss a different decklist that apparently I should know about, even though it wasn't linked/posted in this thread.

Anyway, I'm a strong believer that MM belongs in this deck. I don't agree that MM is only good in your opening hand as an opponent's turn 5 Top can be just as devastating as a turn 1 Top if the gamestate is such that you're both scrapping for advantage. Also, MM isn't a conditional counter that gets worse over time like Daze is, so it can most definitely still be 100% effective no matter what turn it's played on, the opponent just needs to play a 1cc spell... which they will do past turn 1.

I am still on the fence about this card , i went from loving it to its ok. the real problum with this card is that a lot of time the 1cc spells will tend to be less relevent after turn one or two. and the card also only stops aggro decks from curving out on turn one. the card also start losing lots of value when your opponent can play a lot of little dudes and deploy them in one turn .

I also sort of have to retract my statement about it not being good in aggro decks . I played agginst a goblins player who had it md and he just started blowing me out. so to get back on topic here maybe the card should be part of a 2/2 split with counterspell or spell snare . but I do not think that this card is a auto four of becuse you just lose so much value in the mid game.

in fact mental misstep in my oppinion is not really a control card it is almost like a silver bullet card that rewards decks for being proactive .and allows creature decks to play around and through certin control cards.

The other problum with this card is that it does not shore up the weeknesses counterbalence has . which makes me ask the question should we just cut counterbalence completly and just put it in the board.

Counterbalance decks main weakness is Aether Vial. MM can answer Aether Vial. Now, yes, I understand that Aether Vial players can/will also run MM, but that's besides the point. Other than FoW, which we already run, there is no other card that can deal with Aether Vial when we're on the draw.

Pithing Needle can "deal" with it, but you're tapping turn 1 mana for Needle instead of Top, and it doesn't actually do anything if the opponent goes, Goblin Tinkerer -> Pithing Needle... vomit my hand?

I've got to be honest; I never clicked on the link that sparked this initial conversation, so I'm not sure what it's to, but in case there's lingering confusion, I'm playing almost Gearhart's 75, with some slight modifications.

Post board, the nut Counterbalance + Top hand is: artifact land, Mox Opal, Top, Chrome Mox, card to pitch, Counterbalance. Which is turn 1 Counterbalance + Top. The Chrome Mox isn't always there, but you can still turn 2 Counterbalance + Top activation, which is actually reasonably consistant, and better than the straight countertop version.

The Tezz question might be a chicken or egg thing, or it might be that Gearhart moved to the artifact base specifically to play to Tezz's strengths, I'm not sure as I can't ask him. The artifact lands and Moxen have been tried by others (you even mention Barnello's Edison list) without Tezz, so I think it's reasonable to assert that faster mana is a legitimate deckbuilding pursuit without necessarily intending on building to Tezz's strengths. Doesn't really matter either way; the point is that Tezz does function well in that build, which is why he's in it.

You might be right that the traditional shell, plus maybe some Missteps is the way to go, but it's at least worth considering both options. Have you played the Gearhart version? It's not without its merrit, I think. Anyways, I'm playing in a GPT this weekend in Providence (I think I mentioned that), so I'll have some more feedback, and immediately following that I'll be shifting my focus to post-rotation testing.

Hello guys. I hate counterbalance so I am trying a list that plays chalice of the void instead? I know it is a nontraditional list but I am wondering what you think. Cliques are flex spots and I know jeweled amulet is weird but I like it so far.

3 The Abyss
3 Sword of the Meek
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Thopter Foundry
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
4 Mental Misstep
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Force of Will

4 Lotus Petal

3 Jeweled Amulet
4 Seat of the Synod

4 Island
4 Underground Sea

4 City of Traitors

3 Ancient Tomb

2 Vault of Whispers
3 Darkwater Catacombs

SB:
1 Silent Arbiter
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Transmute Artifact
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
3 Mindbreak Trap

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arsenal

Counterbalance decks main weakness is Aether Vial. MM can answer Aether Vial. Now, yes, I understand that Aether Vial players can/will also run MM, but that's besides the point. Other than FoW, which we already run, there is no other card that can deal with Aether Vial when we're on the draw.

Pithing Needle can "deal" with it, but you're tapping turn 1 mana for Needle instead of Top, and it doesn't actually do anything if the opponent goes, Goblin Tinkerer -> Pithing Needle... vomit my hand?

---

ok so now lets think and lets look at some of the decks that run aethier vial. hmm ok so fish runs it and in general has maybe elleven targets . 7 of which probably wont matter. ok now lets look at another aethier vial deck. now lets look at goblins. so they have eight spells that cost one mana . 4 of which you can swords and can block.

now lets get real if the only thing that we want mm to counter is vial in the early game then there really isnt any reason to play it. becuse yes it helps you survive the early game but the card gets substanshionally worse in the midgame. and by the late game the card is just blank.

you are right about aethier vial being one of counterbalences main weekness but the other weekness is that players have started to change up there curves to get around the balence. this card also has the ability to make balence even worse if players start playing less one drops

Thopters is one of the CounterTop decks actually the best suited to combat opponent's varied mana curves due to our E Tutor and the multiple 3cc and 4cc artifact/enchantments we can fetch. Not only do we have Top and Brainstorm like every other CoutnerTop deck out there, but we have a RELIABLE method of getting 3cc and 4cc spells to the top of our deck at a moment's notice. This is a huge, huge advantage that Thopters has over other CounterTop decks imo.

yes but you have to admit that after you e tutor for your three to four mana cost card you have to keep it on top in the fear of another three to four mana cost cards. so in all reality that tactic is not really for the long game it is just a stop gap

How many spells is your opponent playing that are all 3cc and 4cc turn after consecutive turn? Of those, how many do you care about? I mean, I suppose context is important here; if I have a Humility in play, I don't care if my opponent plays Knight of the Reliquary. If I have a Jace in play, and my opponent plays Oblivion Ring, I probably want to E Tutor for Vedalken Shackles/Oblivion Ring in that situation. Also, you're not taking into account the 3cc/4cc spells that you're tutoring up will most likely deal with whatever 3cc/4cc spell your opponent is playing. Opponent plays KotR, you E Tutor Vedalken Shackles, counter his KotR. Your opponent now may be less inclined to just run his Rhox War Monk out there next turn. Or if your opponent plays Goblin Ringleader, you E Tutor for Moat/Humility, counter his Ringleader. Your opponent needs to alphastrike you RIGHT NOW, you they're lose when you slam down Moat next turn. Again, this is all context sensitive, but these are all commonly played cards in commonly played matchups that will arise.

But the point I'm trying to make is that we already have all the tools available to other CounterTop decks (Top, Brainstorm, Jace 2.0 Brainstorm) in order to manipulate the top of our deck PLUS we have E Tutor. Varied mana curves are less of a worry than an opponent's Turn 1 Vial when I'm on the draw.

These lists without Counterbalance and with Tezz 2.0 + more artifacts are taking the deck in a pretty different direction. Those who are promoting such might want to start a new thread for it, both to reduce thread confusion and to focus deck development.

The thread's title pretty clearly states "Countertop," I don't have an opinion on which direction is better, it's just that there will be endless ideological debates getting in the way of actual development if we try to accomadate Countertop and sans-Countertop in the same thread. IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by obituary 95

yes but you have to admit that after you e tutor for your three to four mana cost card you have to keep it on top in the fear of another three to four mana cost cards. so in all reality that tactic is not really for the long game it is just a stop gap

---

If you're sandbagging a card for multiple turns on top, how is that not playing for the long game? I frequently e-tutor for a blank, flip counterbalance, then shuffle. That line is more "stop gap" I suppose, but it is a perfectly valid line of play. You're still trading 1-for-1, and enlightened tutor is mana efficient.

Plus, I think this deck has pretty significant advantages over most other decks if and when the game does go long.

Both decks run Counterbalance. But you're right that they're pretty different, too.