You've learned the ins and outs of the deck, your performance with it has been excellent and consistent. But you already sold a part of your deck! (thoughtseizes).Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Rach
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You've learned the ins and outs of the deck, your performance with it has been excellent and consistent. But you already sold a part of your deck! (thoughtseizes).Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Rach
I'd like to see a tournament report, good sir.
-Matt
Where are all the Bobs lately? It's not much of the rock without Bob.
I think sdematt said it best about how people will dismiss people's ideas until it places high in an event. This isn't new but it still holds true. An example was a while ago, basically when i converted deadguy ale into junk, i kept 2 mystics. People told me i think on a couple forums i was an idiot, our creatures are big enough etc.When i played at scg san jose i didn't do stellar but i still ended 5-3 I did get unlucky, very unlucky but i have to saw the mystics saved me all throughout the day. It not being perishable or submerge target won me multiple games in that day. It did help against decks like dredge too. My point being is ultimately it's what you think. The more comfortable you are with a list the betteryou will play with it. I think i will be taking a rather extended leave from this deck. I am not really enjoying it,
Why are you leaving it?
At least, give us some reasons why you're taking a leave of absence from the deck.
-Matt
I'll tell you, that BUG list is really turning my head... ;p But I doubt I'll want to switch before the SCG open near Dallas. If combo continues to be a growing presence in the meta then that might be the way I'll go. There's still a whole lot of tribal out there though and I feel like Affinity is just waiting for a breakout.
No, not this time.
Just a summary: I went 4-1-1 in the swiss and then met PanderAlexander in the finals.
Round 1: Aggro Loam 2-0
Round 2: Enchantress 2-0
Round 3: Dredge 1-2
Round 4: Big Zoo 2-(1?)
Round 5: Not sure
Round 6: ID with Turbo-Drazi
Quarter: Dredge 2-0 (Same guy as before. Mull to four and got really bad dredges 1st game.)
Semi: Show and Tell/Natural Order 2-1
Final: Split/drop.
Heh, I'll wait for them to come down after they rotate.Quote:
You've learned the ins and outs of the deck, your performance with it has been excellent and consistent. But you already sold a part of your deck! (thoughtseizes).
I wouldnt exactly say we are GSZ haters as in I think most of us that have chosen not to run it have said the card has a place..Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
The topic at hand was does it belong in ROCK.. I believe I and some others made the comments that the card belonged in an aggro build and thats exactly what the builds that ran it were...So I dont understand.. What point was proved.. The junk list that placed was a hybrid deck not straight rock and its not like GSZ put the deck over the top.. ROCK placed before and placed better so not sure what point for or against GSZ could be drawn here..
Lets see a card that fetches any green creature for one extra mana being good in a toolbox aggro deck. Thats not a real stretch to say that the card might be good...People had it in random decks at Indy when I was there and it had just dropped...
I keep my position that in order to use zenith you must entirely revamp the deck and even after doing so the end product is not superior..
Hell if the debate was will people use GSZ in decks with some success I think any idiot could see that its almost certain..
There were 9 decks out of 16 running wasteland....33 wastelands total....2 decks with stifle on board....3 magnus of the moon..
1 blood moon and 2 cruible and atleast 4 or 5 price of progress in the top 16.....And holyshit 14 of the 16 decks had basic lands in the mana base which means that it is wise to run at least a few basics in the manabase... Its not accident that these decks have basics. Of the decks that didnt run them atleast 1 had stifle and counter spells to defend against land denial the other was a combo deck that didnt need to worry about it.....So People for cryin out loud if you want a sound deck that can compete at something more than a local 5 man tourney get your manabase sound....
What about using GSZ to fetch out green creatures we can't cast? Just hear me out before you tie me to the cross (Tivadar's Crusade)
Example, what about a one-of Rafiq of the Many, or something like this? Access to a huge beater (or, turning a Knight/Goyf into a freakin' monster) could be good. I'm not saying we should be running 20 creatures to do this, but even running something like this as a one-of backed by Birds for the hardcast (if necessary) might not be a terrible idea.
I'm just brainstorming, so let's talk about it. Rafiq would give you some extra punch, and at 5 mana turning your KotR into a 14/14 essentially is pretty good, especially if they only have a few out, meaning they MUST block it. Just a thought.
-Matt
Considering that most lists already pack Moxen or Hierarchs, this might actually be a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
There is no card that breaks Goyfstalls the way Rafiq does.
I'm not going to feed the trolls so I'll continue discussing "constructively". Singleton rafiq is pretty hot. It's like tutorable equipment. If you are on that vein trygon predator is an option as well. Dark bant anyone? I saw a terravore in Alix Hatfield's Gsz list. He ran 4 heirarchs, 4 gsz. Terravore IMO is a very good choice. I've lost plenty of games to tribal because they chump block my knights till they can swarm me. War marshall is a bitch. If you have more than 2 lands in gy, terravore will ALWAYS be bigger than kotr in the GSZ midrange mirror. Something tells me the mirror will be very common from now on.
Ps Alix Hatfield plays Gsz. For one of the greatest innovators/ players in mtg to play it is good enough for me.
Could be devastating.....I think having one of rafiq makes sense if you are gonna run zenith....Worth a shot anyway...Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
For one more mana, why not just get Lord of Extinction? My point being is that making your creature big doesn't do much. Chump block the baddie. We need to provide evasion for our creatures to get through. Rafiq is nice, I love the card and even played Mythic Bant in Standard for awhile, but Rafiq very rarely survives long enough to be effective. Its a reason why sovereigns was the more popular version of the deck.
Try it out and lmk, maybe its better then I think, but my past experiences don't get my hopes high. I'd personally run another Elspeth in that playspot.
Trygon Predator would be pretty fantasic imo. I like destroying thing for free.
Finally had a chance to try out Selkie, and honestly am bummed out. Maybe I need to have elspeth out in order to appreciate it more. Why does everyone else find it so good?
He is sucky without exalted triggers. Bob No 5 is not terrible though. Honestly I prefer him as a SB card. I'd run selkie in the blue versions because Bant can't play Bob and at worst, he pitches to Force. If you draw Selkie in The Rock against aggro, it's a dead card, awkward!
Why do people start to debate.. Get totaly off topic..Act like they are pioneering some ground breaking new tech that was completely unforseen to everyone..Then throw out the name of someone who places frequently that used the card ( In a completely different deck I might add) as if these guys are the end all of magic wisdom..And this somehow validates what they were saying..
I guess I must be one of the greatest innovators of all time then since like 3 pages ago I said that GSZ belongs in a deck like bant or something that runs natural order...Cause thats exactly what Alix hatfield played GSZ in...LMAO
I'm not trying to be a dick..But the debate topic was does GSZ belong in ROCK..Does it make ROCK better..After all this is the ROCK forum....I say no..
I play rock cause I love control with fat beaters..I dont feel like GSZ fits the control aspect of the deck..If you wanna play a dark zoo of sorts or some kind of junk and taxes then sure...Not my style...
I said that in order to use GSZ you have to completely change the build..And the junk build that placed was completly changed..Now the questions is..Is it better?..Well it didnt place higher than any junk build ever so the answer is NO...Atleast for now..Is it as good?..thats debateable....
But in no way shape or form did I ever say that GSZ wasnt good, wouldnt be used or anything of the sorts.....
The build would have to be completely different.
I'm not one to say "whatever the pro's use must be good," but generally if they're putting up numbers with a card, it's for a reason. Either they see potential or are just trying it out. While I'm not a fan of Alix Hatfield, I respect the fact he's using the card and at least trying it out. Great innovator? Meh. Should we see how he does with it? Probably.
A good example is Team America. Dan is an EXCELLENT Team America player because he's the guy who started the deck. Play skill has a lot to do with tournament placings. We might all try GSZ and cry because it's terrible, but this could be due to luck and skill. To be honest, I'm not the best Rock player in the world; I only play Magic a few times a week. I don't get many 8-hour sessions to test in. But, I try to make the games I play count, or I do serious testing in the time I do play.
To me, GSZ is another direction Rock can go, as is Aggro-Rock, Vial Rock, Junk and Taxes, and Fraggle Rock.
In short, Deezy, don't hate on Ivan, he's expanding another direction. Ivan, don't play it just because Alix is playing it, play it because you'd like to develop it. Is it a direction I personally want to go? To be honest, I'm not particularly interested in that direction for myself. I probably won't build a GSZ Rock build in real life, but I'd still like to help and make suggestions and make progress in that direction. I don't want the Rock thread to fragment into 7 threads for every direction, since all of them will fail. Again, everyone just try to make your criticism constructive and not just bashing the shit out of other people.
BTW: Got my last Beta Bayou in teh mail. I am excite.
-Matt
Well put sdematt I guess it depends on play style...I respect the hell out of any one pushing the boundries.. I just dont want to be put on one side of the fence about a card (that I like by the way) just cause I think its better suited in another deck...
I'd utilize it in a build that can completely abuse it...
Bant has the multi colored dudes to support it for sure like you said rafiq,quasali, trygon,teeg,knight,and goyf,hirearch....and has access to counter magic to back it up and not to mention can produce the colors needed to cast all of the above and isnt restricted in the least for its color early..GSZ fits right in and is streamline in that type of package and strategy...Just seems clunky in a rock build that needs black early for disruption and only has a few benificial targets..
Thats all I was ever getting at....
Just to bring up the point again, what about consideration of using Wild Mongrel to Junk Rock? 2cc, can change colors, fills up your graveyard to beef himself, KotR, and Goyf.
He makes use of dead late game cards like Hymns, Thoughtseize, and Moxes.
Dont think it could be shluffed off...Have you tested it? Def worth some testing IMO....Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeinVoncy