Ruric Thar, the Unbowed is so good in the sideboard. Crushed delver left and right today. Turn 2 NO --> vs storm was GG also.
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Ruric Thar, the Unbowed is so good in the sideboard. Crushed delver left and right today. Turn 2 NO --> vs storm was GG also.
No love for the spore frog idea tuturable on turn two to delay getting hoofed in what is essentially a race to hoof town just an idea no onesgiven any thoughts mortor pod and cursed scroll seem unreliable to find or mull into I understand fog is generally unusable in legacy it just feels like there might be applications for a tuturable way to slow down the mirror
Man what would you cut to add it? I mean its a card that you do not really need, in a matchup better controlled by racing them, that offers no other benefits. Frog is taking up space that could be used by something else. In a Mirror I would bring in Jitte if I had to bring in a card.Quote:
Originally Posted by uncletiggy
In other news, still telling me that pact into Emmy is the way to do it on Salvation...
Haha I just noticed trevaftw your on here. What's the deal man? What's with the sub build?
I'll figure it out racing a deck with more cradles seems like a bad idea obv iously not have the cradles is back breaking I'll try my luck and figure a board out on my own
Oh yes. You only have one cradle. I guess you could use frog if you had too, the issue I see with it personally is that you have no element of surprise with it. Someone will not go all out against you while you have it out. The game plan would change and you would have to test out the match up to get a feel for what's going to happen. Because their hand will change how they respond.
My personal suggestion when playing in a mirror is to hit them with Discard and tear their hand apart. If you do that you will level the field. I have seen sideboards with as many as 6 discard spells in them in a combo heavy meta. If you expect a lot of combo it's a thought.
Sub as in only 2 cradles? I am le poor and saving towards them. But I also want to build other decks and get other staples so it's hard to prioritize.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
My current build:
Creatures - 30
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Ruric Thar
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Elvish Archdruid
Spells - 14
4 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
Lands - 16
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Gaea's Cradle
Sideboard
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Krosan Grip
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Dryad Militant
1 Progentius
1 Dryad Militant
Oh shit man I got you mixed up with Izor. My bad. Sorry I should not cross the two forums over. I am confusing myself.
No worries man. I recently went from 2->4 Natural orders and got a progenitus so there have been some upgrades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I completely hear you on trying to put other things together too I'm still trying to finish nic fit maverick junk dead guy and the mana base for zombardment so three more cradles will be a while I think 3 total is ideal with some number of crop rotaion I think four cradles and no rotations is probably wrong one set up favors yor combo turn the other is more in on the no plan.
@dicebox the element of suprise wouldn't exsist with jitte or mortar pod either I was looking to buy a turn to stave off faster hoofs gsz gives me 5 answers in the mirror at the expense of only siding out ooze while not boarding into discard ill probably end up running 5 discard in the board anyway so maybe its a wasted slot and maybe jitte is just strictly better I wouldn't be opposed to running jitte and I might just run the frog and report how it works out
Nice, Pro on the table is fun. Sadly I almost never get to use him as people tend to fold.Quote:
Originally Posted by trevaftw
To each there own I guess. I am sick of seeing my only land go away and still having my rotation get counted. That or a board wipe when my only land is a Cradle. For that I am starting to distance myself from Rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by uncletiggy
I know what you mean by wanting to build more decks too. Elves was one I sunk most of my money into this year. I decided that I was going to make it only a month before the rules change was announced so if I had of had money I then I would have saved myself on the cradles. Kicking myself for not starting sooner. Still Elves are so graceful after playing Goblins for so long. Its good to have a choice other than "Sledgehammer" for most situations and I really like them.
As much as that is true, both Jitte and Pod are not one use only cards. If you are low on cash I can see two Frog being helpful, if you have a bit of money grab two Jitte. Because what you lose in surprise you gain in long term control.Quote:
Originally Posted by uncletiggy
if you are worried about the mirror match squeeze a priest of titania in your list. Getting it in play turn two is almost always a win on turn three since it also counts the elves your opponent has in play. Still if you are on the draw it may not be enough to win the race (well , also if you are on the play they can combo out turn 2, but that's very rare).
I call R-R-Razor Boomerang :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoCop 90
Seriously, the mirror has always felt to me as pretty much a goldfishing race. It's been debated whether you want to bring in Therapy on the draw and I still feel undecided about it.
Long time reader, first time poster. Thanks to danyul for the primer. Props to chinesegirl (esp on the old thread), dicebox, and lemnear for the insights. It's 2am, and i'm doing this from memory and life point totals, so bear with me if anything looks off. Anyhow here is the list I played for the MTGdeals.com monthly legacy tournament, date – 08/18/13:
MD
4 Birchlore Ranger
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 DRS
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
4 GSZ
4 Glimpse
3 NO
9 Fetch
2 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Gaea’s Cradle
SB
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
2 Rule of Law
1 Meekstone
Of the 43/44 players (can’t remember exact number), here are the decks that were well represtented:
At least 3 RUG delver
At least 3 UWR delver
At least 3 countertop
At least 4 storm
At least 4 death and taxes
At least 3 sneak and show
A couple stoneblade
A couple dark maverick
Round 1 – Martin with dark maverick
G1 – I think he mulls to 6, and keeps a sketchy hand w/ 2 wasteland and a plains and missing 2/3 colors. I had a land heavy hand of at least 3 to start. I open on a fetch>bayou>DRS. Didn’t really care if bayou got wasted, as my hand was land heavy for an elves draw. He obliges. He has to waste his t2 wastelanding me again, but now I’ve dumped elves on the board thanks to visionary chains. The only other cards I see in G1 are plains and STP. Cratered out ftw.
Side in harmonic, viridian, progenitus, & NO. Can’t remember what I sided out.
G2 - he gets stuck on a DRS with no lands to eat, one land in play, a noble, & a mom. He eventually sets up Jitte, but doesn’t see symbiote shenanigans. I Craterhoof for a bunch before he can make up for the mistake. He was quite bitter due to his bad draws, proceeds to smugly remark, “if I had one more mana, I win the game for sure.” I ask him what he had, and he tells me EE. YO DOUCHEBAG, you have a mom, noble, and DRS.
Round 2 – Abraham with Sneak & Show
Abraham wass totally new to legacy and finished the day towards the bottom of the rankings. He was a great sport, and all around nice dude. I don’t know what the sneak & show matchup is supposed to be like, but I guess I lucked out on this pairing.
G1 – notes show that I aggro elves’d it. He forced a glimpse somewhere in there. Lucky for me he had show in tell the whole game but didn’t find a creature to show until too late.
Side in 4 therapy, teeg, & harmonic. Side out 4 Glimpse, Ooze, & q. ranger I think. Siding out all my glimpses was a recurring theme today.
G2 – He dazes some spells, stunting his mana. I develop a board presence, and happy Nettle/symbiote make sure I had enough non-sick dudes to make craterhoof lethal.
Round 3 – Joe Lossett with U/W/r miracles
Joe was a really cool dude. Totally nice and a gentleman all-around. He politely pointed out that I failed to shuffle a GSZ and let me know that a grinder would let me take a game loss for such a mistake.
G1 – On the play I turn two visionary chain into 7 dudes on board. He cracks his fetch, brainstorms, untaps, terminus. I am hellbent but make him earn it via angel tokens. Rough.
Side in 1 harmonic, 1 viridian shaman, 2 cabal therapy. Side out 3 NO, 1 Ruric Thar. G1 I saw pierce and counterspell. I know he plays FoW, so it seemed like the right play to side out the NOs. Not sure about this one in hindsight.
G2 – An StP, terminus, karakas laughing at my t2 GSZ teeg, and entreat the angels off top-activation for surprise blockers do me in this game. Hard matchups are hard =(
Round 4 – Thomas with U/W/R tempo
Thomas was a serious dude and played super serious the entire time. His complete inexperience against elves was extremely apparent, as he had to read practically every card.
I steal G1 with a Craterhoof when he left his mana pants down. He stifled a fetch and wasted me somewhere in there.
Side in 2 rule of law, 2 therapy, 1 harmonic, 1 v shaman. Forgot what I sided out
G2 – his inexperience with legacy in general shows up pretty candidly here, as he falls for symbiote shenanigans not once, but twice. Both timed he was trying to shoot an elf with his lavamancer. The game drags on, but he has just enough bolts to kill my dudes, and fetches/dazes to feed the lavamancer. I think he finally gets me with a flipped delver.
Side in an Ooze.
G3 – he gets a t2 lavamancer, but I’ve already dropped a couple of elves. I never draw Rule of Law or get an active DRS/ooze. The game goes to time. Draw. After we play he was a good sport and apologizes for having to read so many cards. I wish him good luck, hoping he loosens up and has fun later in the day instead of being serious Samuel.
Round 5 Kyle with Death & Taxes
Kyle is from the same area of Southern California as me and we exchange pleasantries/discuss me possibly playing at his shop’s future tournaments.
G1- Another land heavy hand, so I willingly grab a bayou. He has no waste, but plays an extremely slow hand and uselessly ports my bayou. Not much happened for him. I have him going to 19, and that’s it so I probably craterhoofed him.
Side in 1 harmonic, 1 shaman, 1 NO, 1 Progenitus – side out glimpses I think
G2 – This game did not go his way, as he did not find his hate. I fool yet another player with symbiote, this time negating a would-be batterskull 8 point life swing. Hardcast craterhoof off double cradle seals it.
Round 6 – Adam with Jund
G1 – I lead off with fetch>forest>Quirion Ranger. He smiles and says he’s not going to let it live and bolts it. This was unexpected, as I was saving a birchlore, hoping to t2 birchlore/visionary. It’s possible that he mistook it for symbiote, but who knows. I get nettle sentinel, DRS, and some other elf into play to square off against his 4/5 goyf. He bloodbraids into Lili, forcing me to sac. I only had one card left in hand at this point, and it was NO, so I’m very worried about lily +1 to make me discard my Natural Order. He swings at me with goyf & BBE while I’m at 18, leaving only DRS behind to block. I go to 11, untap, swing both at lili killing her, drop another creature, pass. He shows why he didn’t defend his pw and casts another liliana, forcing me to sac again. I sac the random sick creature I just cast, and he swings with both BBE & goyf again, leaving the new lili exposed to a crack back. I believe his logic was to establish a clock against me, as playing conservative would only allow me to out-topdeck him. I believe the next turn I glimpsed out a couple elves, kill liliana, and pass. His ensuing turn, he casts dark confidant and doesn't swing, as I have symbiote on board to just stop the goyf anyway. I untap with sufficient mana to Natural Order. Got very lucky that he didn't draw thoughtseize somewhere during those turns.
Side in 2 Rule of Law, 1 ooze, 1 NO, 1 Progenitus, 1 meekstone. Side out 4 glimpse, Ruric Thar, 1 Q. Ranger.
G2 – I turn 3 hoof ftw.
top 8 – Joe Lossett with U/W/r Miracles
G1 – I put up a better showing this time against him, but he is able to keep elves off my board, so my cradles never really do the correct ritualing. A lone angel token is able to keep me off the aggro plan. He stabilizes and that same angel ends up killing me.
side into a fast NO plan. Didn’t realize how bad Ruric Thar for the matchup until after it was over. Mistakenly left him in
G2 – Turn 3 hoof him while he only has 1 mana up. He brainstorms but can’t find FoW. That does it.
G3 – grindfest. I decay a counterbalance and later harmonic another. I get him to 9 via harmonic and Q ranger beating him and DRS bleeding him. Then there is a turn where it’s questionable whether he should terminus, but he doesn’t (told me this info after the match). That allows the sliver/ranger/DRS team to get him to 5. This is the point at which I go for it, natural ordering. He has a spell pierce though and I cry tears of sadness. There’s a crack that sets him to 4. I decide it’s time to go aggro, swing 3 dudes into his venser, figuring he’d go to at least 2, but he has a clique. I land 1 dmg getting him to 3. We go back and forth, but he’s got the game wrapped up at this point via karakas / venser shenanigans, eventually settting up a CB/Top.
Overall, it was a blast. My first time playing legacy in 2 years, first time ever with elves. Before Lemnear makes a jab about how nice it must be to play vs. mistake-riddled players (r1, r2, r4), I’ll just say sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good.
MD Ruric Thar is TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE. It was clunky and awkward all day. He got stuck in my hand multiple times and was never relevant. If you ARE going to play him, I feel like you need to go down to 1 basic forest and play a Taiga. The logic for playing Ruric in the first place is that you’re in a combo congested meta. That means you can be a little softer to wasteland decks to shore up your g1 vs. combo.
A couple more points on Ruric…he sucks vs. control, so side him out. This is because he is a lame duck against karakas. He kind of specializes against storm based combo imo, but even those guys and Sneak & show bring in karakas to deal with our potential teegs. IMHO, he is not worth the trouble, and that was with me running 4 birchlore/4 DRS. This is not to mention that he MUST attack every turn. It is very possible that a pair of goyfs just end up blocking him (remember, this is in a MD situation), and you look stupid spending 6 mana (or even worse a NO) to kill a goyf. This is why I’m not convinced by people who claim that he’s the tits vs. RUG. Only additional testing will tell though, I suppose.
Birchlore is amazing, and I don’t really want to test fyndhorn/llanowar as a 1 or 2 of. If I end up getting super serious about the deck, I’ll do my due diligence and test it, but I’m convinced that Birchlore is a bonafide 4 of. He isn’t a MUST bolt, but he gets damned close. I def used him in conjunction with Nettle to glimpse chain today, I morphed him to get an extra point of aggro, and morphed in an (unsuccessful) attempt to dodge counterbalance. What I find hard to understand is all the number crunching involving true t1 mana producers. DRS is way short of a guarantee, but everyone seems comfortable labeling him as one. Birchlore gives life to all the utility elves and he pretty much guarantees that you’ll achieve 3 mana on t2, as any accompanying elf will happily enter tapsville with him.
I liked 3 Quiron Ranger. I got to surprise bounce arbor in response to wasteland once today, but 4 seems like it would be a bit much. He sure is great for 1 land hands, but with 19 lands in the deck, that didn't happen very often. Multiples seem to get awkward, and 3 Q Ranger with 4 W Symbiote seem like sufficient enabling for DRS machine gunning.
I was very pleased with my MB except for Ruric. I’m sure that I’d feel differently if I’d gotten paired up with storm for 2 of the 6 rounds, but that just didn’t happen today. I’m not certain he’s necessary against storm, but slamming him down t2 is def a win vs them. I feel like scavenging ooze was great in the (what I consider to be) sole flex spot and the only thing I’d consider swapping him for is a Viridian Shaman. There are fringe decks like tezzerator for which the shaman is a lifeline, but ooze helps you cover up many more relevant matchups. I’m going to stick to ooze unless I enter a meta where I know I have to be prepared for such artifacty nonsense as Ensnaring Bridge and SoFaF.
The side was mostly solid. I didn’t see any RUG today, so meekstone never got to stop any beaters. I like Rule of Law despite others’ disdain for it. To be fair, I never drew it, but it would have protected me from at least Jund and RUG.
A couple of questions for the more seasoned elf slingers:
1. How often do you find that you side out 4 glimpse? I did it at least 3 times today.
2. Do we have any magical answers to Miracles? It was by far the harshest matchup of the day for me. I think that Concordant Crossroads would have won me game 3 for sure. They just try to match us threat for threat, and being able to Deathrite bleed or just swing with Nettle would have gotten me there without a doubt.
I’m sorry if I rambled or comma spliced. I had fun, got good breaks, and hoofed the crap out of my opponents. Totally positive experience and I appreciate all of the discussion you guys have put into the deck. Thanks.
@amppyou
Thx for the props, pal. I'm glad you enjoyed yourself and the deck and that's all I would care for. There's sure no reason to jab anyone in that case ;)
I've been trying (Ruric/Teeg main, 2 Llanowar, 2 Birch, 3 Quirion, 4 NO 4 Cradle) out a different sideboard plan vs. combo to decent results.
Used to side out -4 Glimpse, -1 Shaman, -1 Heritage +4 Therapy +2 Thorn. It worked well, but in the spirit of testing everything tried out the following side-out: -3 Visionary, -1 Shaman, -1 Heritage, -1 Symbiote. The results have been pretty great thus far. The single Visionary left in is just right, and the amount of business is just ridiculous. I have 17-something cards that can just end the game postboard. It's absurd.
I wouldn't play Ruric main unless the meta is full of Delver and combo like mine is. In a fairer meta, you can and should play two Hoof main and board in Prog G2 usually.
@amppyou
You probably mean Absolute Law, not Rule of Law? Rule of Law is the enchantment Ethersworn Canonist is based on, aka a card that fucks you over really bad.
Siding out Glimpses vs. Death & Taxes is wrong I think - you become pretty prone to Mindcensor just shutting down all your broken things.
As far as Miracles goes, that matchup is just bad. They have everything ever against us - CB-Top, Terminus, FoW, E-Tutor+Moat (which with CB incidentally kills NO). Post-board they have Meddling Mage. I don't think there's any realistic solution in existence - Descendants' Path might work, but it's probably bad even against Miracles and most assuredly sucks against every other deck. Phyrexian Arena might work too, but doubtful. The match is just horrible through and through and there's not much that can be done about it.
You can still try to rush miracles, but that Terminus-crap is the reason, I test shizz like Ghostway
How many copies of Ghostway are you running?
I'm TESTING those as a 2-off in the sideboard. Miracles is light on 3cc which is an upside; keeping 3 mana open however is a pain in the ass sometimes like going beyond turn 4 is in general. Grinding out games with the BFF's is sometimes the only thing left and Ghostway prevented a few wipes if your biz was discarded/countered previouslyQuote:
Originally Posted by Kayradis
Miracle CB/Top combo is not that present in my meta at this point, but I see where you're heading.
I'm starting to look ahead for GP Washington in November and the SB is the most debatable point IMO.
It is? I still have the impression that there's no real consense about:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayradis
1) Llanowar vs. Birchlores
2) 3 or 4 Quirion
3) 3 or 4 NO
4) 18 or 19 lands
5) 1 or 2 Arbor
Just that I and others successfully test a certain configuration, doesn't mean anything
P.S.: I'd love to see 4 Birchlores, 4 NO in a T16 :)