[Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

@Snowfire and Sovelis, really interesting that there's such diverging opinions on FoW. It really is looking like a metagame consideration - I'm sure against Belcher they were much appreciated, but Snowfires incredibly fair meta made them at times look like a liability I'm sure.

Anyway, just went to my weekly with Manaless again, ended up 3-1. Although I love Force in the MD, I tried without it in the main and came with... mixed feelings in the end.

Free Creatures: (19)
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge from Below

Dredgers/Discard: (18)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Phantasmagorian
2 Shambling Shell

Disruption: (8)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chancellor of the Annex

Acceleration: (8)
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe

Ressurrection: (7)
4 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Whirlpool Rider

Sideboard: (15)
4 Force of Will
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Contagion
2 Faerie Macabre

Round 1: vs. Reanimator

Game 1: He gets a fast Elesh Norn. I get three Amalgams into play off a Shadow due to an absurd Dredge but need to fight through inevitable countermagic. I Therapy him once, he Dazes. He has one card in hand. I can Therapy again and name Force, then cycle Wraith to hope my Dredge hits a Narco and I still have 3 Amalgams in play next turn. But I feel it's too risky, and pass. I cycle Wraith, hit a Narco that immediately dies, triggering my one Amalgam. I DR targetting Flayer for... Some amount of damage (reduced by Elesh, ofc, but no other choice b/c I don't think there was a Rider in my GY) but he drew a blue card for turn. If I Therapied for Force, might've got there.

+4 Force
+4 Shoal
+2 Faerie
+2 Pharaoh
-3 Shadow
-4 Bridge
-2 Phantasmagorian
-1 Dread Return
-2 Shambling Shell

Game 2: I have a Faerie in hand. I Dredge off a Stinky but whiff, and end up with a few turns with no Dredgers due to him tearing apart my hand with a Collective Brutality. He eventually casts S&T, I put in Imp. Next turn I do nothing, he attacks with Griselbrand into my Imp - not realising they trade. He draws a bunch of cards but kind of whiffs... And I drew another Faerie (so I have two Fae in hand). I Dredge Imp (got a Dredger in my yard thanks to the trade!). He eventually has to go for an Exhume and I get a Chancellor in play, he has a Blazing Archon after I Faerie away some stuff. Chancellor slows him down enough for to eventually combo out.

Game 3: I have a Faerie, Force and Shoal all with good cards to pitch... But no Dredger. I have a Wraith tho, so I can dig. I whiff, get my hand shredded and die after he Reanimates my own Flayer.

Game 1 I wished I had Force.

Round 2: vs. Jund
Game 1: Chancellor and Wraith ruin hiss DRS and I easy kill him.

+2 Contagion
-1 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Prized Amalgam

Cutting into blue cards feels nice.

Game 2: I Dredge fast but eventually run out of steam and only have a Narco and Amalgam in play. He eventually gets DRS online and I'm stuck. However, I keep pressuring his life total and eventually he lands a Goyf... He starts attacking with it but I have two Bridges in the yard, so I block with Narco... He then Bolts his DRS. I then have my engine running and kill him.

Round 3: vs. Burn

Game 1: Combo out very fast with Wraith and two Probes.

+2 Contagion
+4 Force of Will
-1 Bridge from Below
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound
-2 Phantasmagorian
-1 Shambling Shell
-1 Nether Shadow

Game 2: Tear apart his hand, he has a sideboard card in his hand but its Pyroblast so... Yeah. Combo out and kill him. I had Force the whole game for the inevitable Cage/Crypt/Reliche should've mulled towards.

Round 4: vs. Sneak & Show

Game 1: Is pretty awesome; I get some stuff going early with some Narcos, Ickies and Amalgams. I go for a blind Therapy and I'm ready to name S&T (since I'm pretty sure that's what this guy is typically on). It gets Pierced. He S&Ts, he puts in Emrakul I put in Flayer. Upkeep Ickies enter dealing him a bunch from Flayer triggers and I swing through Emrakul for lethal.

+4 Force of Will
+4 Disrupting Shoal
-2 Shambling Shell
-2 Nether Shadow
-1 Phantasmagorian
-1 Bridge from Below

Game 2: Is also sweet. He jams a turn two Show and Tell (off a City) and I have Force... And drew a Probe for my draw step, phew! I assemble a small army and he eventually Shows in Griselbrand (his City ends up dying) - I show in Chancellor. I pass back to him the turn after and he can draw a bunch of cards to go for the Sneak Attack kill - but Chancellor is really ruining his day. He draws a bunch, he tries to cantrip but his mana is stressed that he has to pass - if he attacks, he trades with my Chancellor and Narcos. I untap and start Therapying his hand, primarily looking for Sneak Attack. He has one mana up but can't cast the Spell Pierce in his hand. He's on ~10 life I think. I go to DR Rider and he doesn't draw cards for Force - because he'd then be in for a lethal attack. So I kill him.

I think some of my opponent's played pretty poorly contributing to some of my wins, but in the end the deck performed fine.I think I'll keep my FoW in the main, but I can see the strength of going no FoWs. The Jund matchup, esp. g1, felt so easy with so much redundant protection.

I think I'll be re-adding FoW to the main, trimming Shoals and likely adding an Ashen Rider somewhere. I also love having 3 Faeries and Unmasks would be nice to squeeze in.

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Originally Posted by ChemicalBurns

@Snowfire and Sovelis, really interesting that there's such diverging opinions on FoW. It really is looking like a metagame consideration - I'm sure against Belcher they were much appreciated, but Snowfires incredibly fair meta made them at times look like a liability I'm sure.

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Force is maybe a must have with the RB reanimator which is really strong (Tiers 2 at least and getting more popular : cheap and fun), moreover lands players start to play eva green Depths because it's easy win against miracle and D&T getting more popular too and a Force on Thalia make the game 1 really easier.

Hello everyone, I'm somewhat new to the deck and Dredge all together. I'm currently running 14 dredgers main... is it ever correct to side out the 2 shambling shell? I noticed the BOM list only had 12 main. I was thinking it would be better to side out a number (if not all) phantasmagorians if you're not playing against a Deathrite deck.

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Originally Posted by Blastoderm

Hello everyone, I'm somewhat new to the deck and Dredge all together. I'm currently running 14 dredgers main... is it ever correct to side out the 2 shambling shell? I noticed the BOM list only had 12 main. I was thinking it would be better to side out a number (if not all) phantasmagorians if you're not playing against a Deathrite deck.

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Phantasmagorian helps facilitate your most broken openings, so don't go below 3 when boarding. As for Shells - I tend not to board out dredgers at all.

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Originally Posted by Blastoderm

Hello everyone, I'm somewhat new to the deck and Dredge all together. I'm currently running 14 dredgers main... is it ever correct to side out the 2 shambling shell? I noticed the BOM list only had 12 main. I was thinking it would be better to side out a number (if not all) phantasmagorians if you're not playing against a Deathrite deck.

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I tend to trim Shells in fast matchups where he's just not going to dig us deep enough into disruption. Also, you're correct about Phantas. He's definitely strong vs. DRS and also gives powerful utility in dumping our hand g1 when it's safe to go "all-in". However, in matchups vs combo where we often want cards in hand (eg. FoW, Unmask etc.) he's not as useful and can be trimmed. I trim them pretty aggressively vs. combo (which may be wrong, since they do let you pitch Therapies in hand) but in these matchups they certainly have diminishing returns.

Yeah, might be worth mentioning I'm on the Spy list so that basically leaves me w/ Mindbreak Trap/Unmask/Contagion.

After doing the Last Chance Qualifier for the french cup and thé french cup (around 15 rounds) I think i will play 3 unmask in side for auto discard turn1 against Ad nauseam. Nothing more to say.
Julien who was top8 at the BOM Paris finish first in the LCQ with nearly the same list than me (1 card different in MD) (blu list).

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Originally Posted by Xenio

After doing the Last Chance Qualifier for the french cup and thé french cup (around 15 rounds) I think i will play 3 unmask in side for auto discard turn1 against Ad nauseam. Nothing more to say.
Julien who was top8 at the BOM Paris finish first in the LCQ with nearly the same list than me (1 card different in MD) (blu list).

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To complete the previous post, here is the list Julien piloted, the same exact 75 he ran in Paris (in fact he didn't play in between the two journeys):
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13462&d=279096&f=LE

He finished first, starting 7-0 then ID.

No shell, 4 CotA & 4 FoW MD.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xenio

Force is maybe a must have with the RB reanimator which is really strong (Tiers 2 at least and getting more popular : cheap and fun), moreover lands players start to play eva green Depths because it's easy win against miracle and D&T getting more popular too and a Force on Thalia make the game 1 really easier.

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Force is extremely bad vs another deck playing 4 Chancellor, if people are playing Reanimator you should either not be playing Dredge or playing Leyline.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Force is extremely bad vs another deck playing 4 Chancellor, if people are playing Reanimator you should either not be playing Dredge or playing Leyline.

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You can always try and trick them into Reanimating your Balustrade Spy, targeting you (when you run a Progenitus in the MB). That would be the most epic win ever.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Force is extremely bad vs another deck playing 4 Chancellor, if people are playing Reanimator you should either not be playing Dredge or playing Leyline.

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I do not know if you are trolling or simply do not understand the MU. FoW is stellar in the MU, as:
- in more than 2/3 of the cases, Br rea does not have cota protection and fow is golden;
- in the remaining third your first spell will be countered. You want to overload this effect so one of your fow/1st cabal/noxious/surgical is not countered. Having more free spell is key here.

So should I man up and play this @ GP Chiba (Force ver) tomorrow or stick to Turbo Depths :cool:

Obviously man up. Otherwise ask in the turbo depths thread. :)

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Originally Posted by dte

To complete the previous post, here is the list Julien piloted, the same exact 75 he ran in Paris (in fact he didn't play in between the two journeys):
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13462&d=279096&f=LE

He finished first, starting 7-0 then ID.

No shell, 4 CotA & 4 FoW MD.

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Which is the impact of reducing "free guys" for FoW?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

I do not know if you are trolling or simply do not understand the MU. FoW is stellar in the MU, as:
- in more than 2/3 of the cases, Br rea does not have cota protection and fow is golden;
- in the remaining third your first spell will be countered. You want to overload this effect so one of your fow/1st cabal/noxious/surgical is not countered. Having more free spell is key here.

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They have Chancellor 40% of the time in their opening hand and can go off faster than you can play a Cabal Therapy to pay for the Daze on Force of Will as opposed to just having a Faerie or Leyline which you can cast thru Chancellor and delay them indefinitely.

The match up is insanely bad without hate, Force of Will isn't changing that fact at all and you're back to running wortgless blue cards to support a tempermental disruption card instead of running dedicated hate or Pharaoh post board.

I have played the match up a ton, it's terrible regardless of FoW and meeds a dedicated board.

I played Turbo Depths to a 11-4 finish, but I saw a manaless player (force) in the X-3 slot late in Day 2.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

They have Chancellor 40% of the time in their opening hand and can go off faster than you can play a Cabal Therapy to pay for the Daze on Force of Will as opposed to just having a Faerie or Leyline which you can cast thru Chancellor and delay them indefinitely.

The match up is insanely bad without hate, Force of Will isn't changing that fact at all and you're back to running wortgless blue cards to support a tempermental disruption card instead of running dedicated hate or Pharaoh post board.

I have played the match up a ton, it's terrible regardless of FoW and meeds a dedicated board.

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I do not know what you do wrong, but you surely should pile up missplays to have played the MU a ton and found it to be terrible.

I played against it quite a bit, and found it even to slightly positive. FoW, shoal, noxious, surgical, faeries, pharaoh are all very good here. And it isnt even that bad preboard (with fow and cota MD).

Leyline of the void is quite a bad card in manaless dredge.

What you seem to fail to grasp here is that the deck is not "diluted" or slower vs combo, as the draw spells, icho, cabal and narco are still playsets.

I'm taking Manaless to Frankfurt (Germany) next weekend and wanted to share the list I am planning to play.

MAINBOARD

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Phantasmagorian

4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Prized Amalgam

4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
3 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

SIDEBOARD

3 Contagion
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Disrupting Shoal
1 Ashen Rider

I'm planning to run full playsets of Chancellors and Forces because I want to be prepared for a wide meta with probably a good amount of the new BR Reanimator (that's also the reason for 4 instead of 3 Faeries in the sideboard). Unfortunately I couldn't fit in Nether Shadow as I cut them entirely in favor of Forces.

Any thoughts of the list?

How do you guys board vs DnT? Do you prefer Shoals (RIP/Priest/Thalia), Pharaohs or Contagion?

Would very appreciate a little help, thanks! :-)

on the MD I would replace the fourth amalgam by the first shadow.
On the SB, I like to play a package with different hates, like 2 macabres, 2 SE, 1 noxious. I would cut the fourth Shoal, it is a bit disappointing.

Anyway, it is only minor things. Overall, looks pretty good ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

I do not know what you do wrong, but you surely should pile up missplays to have played the MU a ton and found it to be terrible.

I played against it quite a bit, and found it even to slightly positive. FoW, shoal, noxious, surgical, faeries, pharaoh are all very good here. And it isnt even that bad preboard (with fow and cota MD).

Leyline of the void is quite a bad card in manaless dredge.

What you seem to fail to grasp here is that the deck is not "diluted" or slower vs combo, as the draw spells, icho, cabal and narco are still playsets.

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I honestly don't understand why you continue to devolve the argument into ad hominems, I've played the deck for a long time and played the deck vs B/r Reanimator recently, and considering B/r Reanimator is a DTB and has a generally positive win rate vs aggro-control I don't see how you can claim that Manaless Dredge has a positive win rate vs it with even less disruption.

Maybe you run really hot vs the deck, but I haven't been able to beat it in a 3 round match without Leyline - and I fail to see how Surgical Extraction is any better vs the deck when it runs afoul of disruption and doesnt win the game outright, why dedicate SB space to a lower impact card?