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Vertuk hit it spot on.
I was also surprised to see it in Shardless, but i warmed up to it. Note that shardless plays more 3-4 mana cards, and that daze lets us reset our lands really effectively with the orb. I think that a winter orb gameplan that prioritizes killing enemy dr.s and protecting our own is a pretty good way to approach the matchup.
I understand that. I'm playing Therapy and Angler, with Decay in the SB. I bought a playset each of Underground Seas and Volcanics (and a Trop) in the past two weeks, despite the fact that I only intended to purchase the manabase for this deck (3/2/1 standard), I inadvertently got 2 extra Seas and a Volc. Because I'm an idiot and originally bought 3 Sea/2 Volc/1 Trop for the deck, and then the last Volc I ordered, the guy mixed up the envelopes and sent me the Sea instead. This means I won't get the Volc until next week at least, since he needs to get it back first to resend to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by VERTUK
The price was great on the Sea, so I said I would keep it and pay him (rather than send it back), so I bought a fourth Volc last night. I'm hoping it arrives by Saturday for the tournament; if not, I will need to either run
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
OR
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Steam Vents
Or some other configuration (3 Sea/2 Volc/1 Taiga...so bad). Obviously shockland is annoying, so I would like to find a configuration where having 3 Sea/2 Volc makes sense. I don't know if that exists.
I think Steam Vents would be much preferable to a Taiga. Pretty sure we need every land to tap for U and be online for Daze, and if we're the aggressor in most matchups the 2 damage won't be too bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrsthethird
The problem is that you're running Decays. Otherwise 3/2/1 is really perfect, with the G only needed for Deathrite activations if we're low on life or against a deck like Reanimator. But with Decay, you'll probably want a second G source with the 2 B sources still being fine.
I'd play 2/2/2 traditional 4C mana base or just play fetch #9 over the third Volc. Don't play a non-blue dual.
I played against shardless tonight testing Winter Orb in my sideboard for the first time. I won game 2 with exactly this gameplan. He had tons of cards in hands, but I landed painful truths into winter orb when I was the only one with a deathrite. I'm not saying the card is amazing here, but I definitely think it's better than other cards in the deck to warrant bringing in for this match-up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Realize
Speaking about painful truths. I saw many decklists with 2x in their SB. Where do you bring those in and what do you generally take out for them?Quote:
Originally Posted by MadRhetoric
It's mainly there for Shardless and Miracles. There are probably other grindy match-ups I would consider it in, but those are the big two. And it's been quite great in both of those. I still go back and forth about what to take out against shardless. I think I'm going to try taking out the 4 probes, 2 therapies, and 1 spell pierce as those cards have the least applications and we need strong draws. Against Miracles, I generally take out -1 Wasteland, -2 Gurmag Angler, -1 Forked Bolt/Dismember, and then some number of dazes/bolts depending on if I'm on the play/draw and whether they kept in Jace.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonDark
Can anyone tell me what match-ups Darkblast is good in besides D&T/Elves? I see it in so many sideboards but don't see the value of it outside of those.
Hey, thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by MadRhetoric
Just wondering why do you take out the angler against miracles? Doesn't it dodge Top/Balance pretty well?
Darkblast works great in the mirror too, like super great.
I just remembered Infect is a deck, and I guess Darkblast is awesome there too. But in the mirror? Besides Young Pyro and unflipped Delvers, removing anything else is a 2 for 1 against yourself. Seems weak for a sideboard card, though turboing out some Anglers in the mirror seems nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonDark
Regarding Angler against Miracles, I take it out because StP/C. Judgment/Terminus all deal with it and also prevent your yard from filling up. While that's true of all your creatures, I hate that Angler can almost never be early pressure in this match-up. It also gets completely blanked by RIP if they bring those in, and possibly a Jace bounce if those are left in as well. I'm not sure if this is the correct way of thinking though, and would love to hear what other people think. I can definitely see a good gameplan being to play a normal game and have it as a back-up threat that's fast and dodges top/balance.
I agree about Angler in on the miracles MU, I think it's too easily answered, and the thought of having them in my hand and having an RiP or a Jace bounce makes me want to vomit.
Remember that against a 2-butt creature like DRS or a flipped Delver you can Darkblast in your upkeep then dredge your draw step to get it back and get the second -1/-1 hit on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadRhetoric
Also, I'm probably pretty happy if Miracles is boarding in RIP against us. It only affects Anglers, DRS and half of Therapy. They want to be interacting with us on the stack and board more than in the yard.
Yes that was the 2 for 1 against yourself I was talking about as you're giving up a draw step. I don't like that at all, but considering how good it would be against D&T/Infect I'm going to try it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by rcwraspy
And I agree that RIP isn't a great card against us and it may not be right for them to bring it in, but some people do and it's another factor making Anglers weak. But I'm also on a build with TNN main and Clique side, so I have 2 great threats outside of 1CMC anyway.
I guess the reason why Noah put Lavamancer and Darkblast in the same deck is so that he gets reliably more cards in his graveyard via Darkblast to feed his Lavamancer besides Anglers and Deathrites post-board. You can't just play 2 Lavamancers instead (even though it's definitely a better card).
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadRhetoric
Darkblast does seems very good in the mirror. It wins any creature standoff by shrinking their guy while yours attacks through, or allows you to block profitably. Cleaning up 8 out of 14 possible threats (assuming you have it before delver flips) is also very relevant since it takes the stress off your Bolts, allowing them to hit DRS or go upstairs. In particular the fact that it wipes out opposing Pyros (and tokens), while generating your own steady stream of tokens off an active pyro on your side, really makes it shine in my opinion. The GY synergy is just gravy.
Whether you choose blast or lavaman is a meta call I think. But blast asks less of you and doesn't have summoning sickness or die to removal, while adding to your grave rather than subtracting.
Just my 2cents as a recent lurker though. :)
I'm learning the deck, and so far it's been quite good!
I was wondering what's the Sideboard/Gameplan against BUG Shardless
SB:
2 Fluster Storm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Painful Truths
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Darkblast
1 Dismember
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Baleful Strix
Main Deck
======
Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler
Other Spells
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
Lands
4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
I played EE4 yesterday, going 6-2 and then drawing the final round to split our prizes. Here's a quick summary.
Round 1 (Win 2-0): Bye
Round 2 (Win 2-1): Grixis Delver mirror. The only real noteworthy thing here is that K's Command was an awesome 2 for 1 in both sideboard games.
Round 3 (Win 2-1): Death and Taxes. I just barely lose game 2 even though he has both Batterskull and SoF&I. I feel like I only lose this match-up to equipment and am so happy to have a second artifact destruction card in the 75.
Round 4 (Lose 1-2): UR Delver. Game 1 I lose to Fireblast into PoP. Game 3 I lose to EoT PoP, untap PoP. I should have played less lands and think I deserved to lose, even though I was ahead on board and feel like he topdecked into the right stuff at the right time. But nice guy and he played well.
Round 5 (Lose 0-2): Death and Taxes. These were those games where D&T makes a blue deck look like a joke.
Ruond 6 (Win 2-1): Storm. We play two exciting games and don't have much time for game 3. We go to turns and on his last turn, my opponent storms enough to make sure he'll live, but doesn't kill me. We both bring up that a draw is worthless and my opponent, being a super nice guy, conceded to me as it did seem like I would have won if we had time. Huge props to him and I've done this before and will do it next time for someone else. Another reason why the legacy community is awesome and I love these tournies.
Round 7 (Wn 2-1): Lands. In game 3, my opponent gets a Tabernacle in play when I have one land, 2 flipped delvers, and 1 deathrite in play. He also gets a sphere of resistance out. I keep one delver and the deathrite, which is basically just to eat a land in his yard every turn since he had tons. I realize this since he Crop Rotation'd for the Tabernacle, he only has one land that actually makes mana. He just says draw-go and is basically locked under his own sphere as well. He durdles and I win swinging for 3 a few times. *Phew*
Round 8 (Win 2-0): Shardless BUG. He opens with fetch for swamp, play deathrite. I play Volcanic and bolt his deathrite. He plays wasteland, kills my volc, and passes. I play a land and other things and pass. He draws, sighs, and passes. I can't help but savor seeing a player get mana screwed after wastelanding their opponent's only land in play :) Game 2, he gets an early deathrite and Liliana, and I think I'm screwed. I play a Painful Truths and a Strix as Lili bait. He edits me, but I follow it up with TNN, Young Pyro, Dismember his deathrite. After he makes me sac the elemental, I kill the Lili and then him. My new sideboard strategy (-4 probes, -2 therapy, -1 FoW, +2 Strix, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Winter Orb, +1 Painful Truths, +1 K. Command) worked out great. All business spells is where it's at.
Round 9 (Split): My opponent offers the split and I happily accept so my friend and I can head back home. He says he's playing Aggro Loam and I'm happy to have avoided that lol.
General thoughts on the deck:
- The deck is amazing and there is no match-up I feel I can't win. My friend asked me during the tourney which deck I would want to play the next round if I could choose. I said I don't really care, all i want is to be on the play.
- Drew the Darkblast a few times and was generally disappointed. I want to find something else for that slot.
- K's Command continued to be amazing and will definitely be keeping it.
- Clique hasn't been that great. I'm thinking I might replace this slot as well.
General thoughts on the event:
- The venue was AWFUL. It basically had no AC on a 90 degree day. Everyone was talking about how it reminded them of the high school locker room. Also, I was waiting with a friend for the bathroom and was then told the area was being closed and I needed to move. The rep from Tales of Adeventure said to me off to the side that there were issues with the venue people and he apologized. I'm sure they understood how bad it was and would avoid it in the future, but do not go to an event if it's held at the Merchant Square Mall.
- Tales of Adeventure themselves are awesome and the tourney, along with the satellite series leading up to it, are amazing. The legacy community is just fucking awesome and all of my opponents were cool.
Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Young Pyromancer
1 True-Name Nemesis
Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Darkblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Baleful Strix
1 Winter Orb
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Painful Truths
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Vendilion Clique
Question about sideboard cards dedicated to killing small creatures. Assuming you have the stock list (4 bolts main, 1 forked bolt main), which of these is the best for the current meta?
Darkblast
Electrickery
Fire Covenant
Forked Bolt
Grim Lavamancer
Izzet Staticaster
Rough // Tumble
Sudden Demise
Edit: Golgari Charm
Also, any options that I missed?
Why would anybody play Rough // Tumble with DRS and YP, perhaps even TNN in the deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Julien
Also Sudden Demise seems really narrow against elves tbh (D&T has mother and thalia).
I think Grim Lavamancer, Forked Bolt and Fire Covenant are the best options and also fairly broad (electrickery and staticaster only killing 1-toughness creatures).
Forked Bolt is just super efficient and should not miss in the 75 imo.
Grim Lavamancer is slow, but efficient and gives card advantage, but you shouldn't have too much other stuff that eats your gy (like murderous cut)
Fire Covenant is super efficient, but you shouldn't have much stuff that requires paying life when you board this in (e.g. Dismember, Probe).
I actually switched my sideboard a bit (I'm still playing Forked Bolt, Spell Pierce and 4 Stifles in the mainboard):
- 1 Pithing Needle
- 1 Grim Lavamancer
- 1 Surgical Extraction
- 1 Pyroblast
- 1 Hydroblast
- 1 Invasive Surgery
- 1 Divert
- 3 Cabal Therapy
- 2 Abrupt Decay
- 1 Ancient Grudge
- 1 Terminate
- 1 Fire Covenant
I added terminate because I really dislike having dismember against 5/6 tarmogoyfs. Also i'm almost always paying 2 mana for dismember and getting it countered by a blue goyf player means often times gg because of the double life loss. Fire Covenant also becomes better that way.
What do you guys think? Would you give Terminate a shot in your sideboard? I tested against BUG Delver yesterday and it was really good, he was the only one that had Baleful Strixes and still it felt like goyf was a 5/6 half of the time.
Brought Grixis Delver to EE4 on Saturday. I played a standard Noah Walker list -1 Gitaxian Probe +1 Chain Lightning since I feel like having essentially a fifth bolt isn't really a bad thing, and I find myself failing to close games out when the opponent is almost there. It's been good for me in testing.
Did miserable, went 1-4 drop. I'm not sure what went wrong. I played DnT round 1, and in game 3 missed a trigger off of the 2 young pyro's I had in play which would have actually won me the game. I tried to not get too tilted...I think I missed it because I accidentally initially underpaid with a Thalia on the field, and when the opponent corrected me it just threw me off in the moment and I forgot. It's crazy how one moment can make such a big difference. Ultimately Jitte killed me.
Round 2 was Reanimator, and DRS did his thing and got me there in 3. I actually kept a weak hand game 3 just because I had surgical in it, and boy did it pay off. He mulled to 5, and turn 1 entombed a griselbrand. I extracted it, and his hand was just lands, exhume, and another griselbrand. Ouch.
Round 3 was eldrazi and taxes with a player who must have been new to it. He played pretty poorly, but Jitte got me in games 2 and 3. That card is so absurd.
Round 4 was shardless, and he outdrew me plain and simple. We had some good games of magic though, the most fun of the whole day. I blind named Jace on a cabal therapy and nailed it, which was awesome.
Round 5 was DnT again. Game 1 I had him the next turn unless he played a tax effect. He topdecks vryn wingmare, putting me one off of enough mana to bolt for game. Game 2 he saw 4 wastelands in 5 turns and Rest in Peace to shut down DRS. It was embarrassing.
I'm not sure if I'm in a funk or what, but I just haven't been putting up results recently. I definitely want something for artifacts beyond 1 ancient grudge. I'm considering a more direct burn-like list that one of the guys was playing yesterday with Swiftspear instead of DRS and black for Therapy. He was tearing it up, and I'm waiting for decklists to be released since I'm sure he finished well. Also, I never really cared about Rest in Peace before, but it blew me apart several times in this tournament. Just a lot of DnT in this tournament.
That list yesterday was without Wastelands though, it was pretty much UR Delver with a superlight splash for therapy in the sb and anglers in the mb.
Though tbh not splashing black and just having eidolon in the sb seems better against combo than discard to me. Angler is certainly an argument though, I wouldn't want to play without them.
The thing I found really interesting with the list yesterday was that he was able to play Rough/Tumble in the sb because he was playing 4 delver 4 swiftspear 4 stormchaser (as far as I understood). That makes the black splash weird though because I thought it was for Therapy which would imply Pyromancers.