Hooray!! to EldraziQuote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
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Hooray!! to EldraziQuote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Who is writing a primer?
It's hard to nail down what card choices should be included. So far I have:
4 Ancient Tomb
2-4 City of Traitors
2-4 Eye of Ugin
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Cavern of Souls
5-11 Other Lands and/or Mox Diamond (Most common additional lands are Wasteland, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory)
4 Chalice of the Void
3-4 Other Lock Pieces (Trinisphere/Thorn of Amethyst)
6-7 "Removal" (Warping Wail/Jitte/Dismember/All is Dust)
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
0-4 Legendary Creature Control (Endbringer/Karakas)
0-4 Phyrexian Revoker
0-8 "Small Eldrazi Option" (Eldrazi Mimic/Endless One)
0-6 "Mid Size Option" (Matter Reshaper/Metamorph)
0-3 "White Splash Option (Eldrazi Displacer)
0-2 "Problematic non-creature permanent removal Option" (World Breaker/Ugin/Ulmog)
0-4 "Accel options" (SSG/ESG/Mox)
At this point I think it is understood that Oblivion Sower and/or Black Splashes are sub-optimal? The green splash is really just for world breaker, and really that's not so much a splash for green as it is a splash for a particular artifact/enchantment removal. White splash is only Displacer. The Midsize option seems to be less favorable than the Small Eldrazi option. The white splash option can be paired with either the Mid size or Small option. Karakas seems to take the place of the legendary creature control instead of a land spot - often competing or supplementing Endbringer. In the removal suite, Dismember is usually only a 0-2, most likely a 1, due to the life loss. It also seems to be recommended to play at least 2 Jitte in builds with dismember for life gain.
That pretty much sums it up. I'd say Umezawa's Jitte is another important one to note and I'd also like to add that Workshop aggro decks used to play O-Naginata and Chalice together, so other equipment should also be looked at. In the lands list, Tower of the Magistrate is going to be important if games are decided by who has Jitte first or against Batterskull.
Drowner of Hope and World Breaker both compete for the Endbringer slot. So far I like the World Breaker effect best, but he's hard to cast. Endbringer makes it rather easy especially if you are running Urborgs (better probability to land a turn 3 Endbringer).
As for the black splash, Dismember costs a lot of life and we should already be running Urborgs to mitigate ancient tomb damage. Black is the easiest splash for Eldrazi, but also the least tried because Wasteland Strangler is conditional.
I included Jitte in the "Removal Suite" and included World Breaker as a separate option from Endbringer as they try to accomplish different things. Also placed Urborg as a common land to be player in the open land slots; remember that urborg is played even without black splash - as it can act as a 2 mana land with Eye of Ugin.
GR is a valid choice as well for coloured builds.
GR gives you also the best removal tools ever.
From Krosan Grip to pretty much everything.
ESG, Urgborg and Mox Diamond allow you to be consistent in casting Maelstrom Pulse as well..
I think the hardest part of the primer will be getting enough data together for match ups and then nailing down an approximate sideboard.
My tuned up list after 16 rounds of testing this weekend.
3 revoker
4 mimic
4 endless one
4 thought knot
4 reality smasher
2 endbringer
3 simian spirit guide
4 chalice
3 thorn
3 wail
2 dismember
1 urborg
2 wasteland
3 factory
3 cavern
3 eye
4 temple
4 city
4 tomb
SB
1 warping wail
2 pithing needle
2 sphere of resistance
2 jitte
1 dismember
3 faerie macabre
1 crucible
3 trinisphere
Notable changes:
Moved trinisphere to the side to test thorn. Trini has really been lackluster outside of combo(where it has been a powerhouse), cut a factory and cavern for 2 wasteland to help with utility lands. I've found that with the threat density of this deck and no colored cards, 3 cavern seems to be sufficient.
Also tuned up the SB a lot. With the only answer to blood moon and bridge being ratchet bomb(which takes three turns to activate for them) I've given up trying to destroy them. I've fought through blood moons, price of progress and bridge using the little guys and mishra's factory while the opponent is locked out. Still need a good answer though and plan to test
Nevinyrral's disk
Oblivion stone
Spine of ish sha
Unstable obelisk
To see if any of those work out better.
Right now I've been very happy with spirit guide. I try to play on curve when possible and spirit guide is a house in that regard, especially when playing into daze.
I really don't believe in a splash. The consistancy is barely there already.
I'd like to fit another wasteland in here but I'm not sure what to cut as the deck has felt really good.
Given much of the power of the deck is in the first turn Chalices, I think it's reasonable to argue Eldrazi Temple doesn't warrant automatic inclusion either. Tomb, City and Eye seem like the obvious fast mana for what they offer but the rest of the manabase seems like it should be given thought to. Same with the fast accel: Mox Diamond/Spirit Guide/Lotus Petal/Grim Monolith/etc. should probably all be mentioned. Ironically the non-land part seems comparatively easy to nail down: TKS and RS are just the best and Mimic/Endless One/Chalice/Dismember/Wail rounds it out nicely. And it's hard to argue for cutting Endbringer either so that really just leaves Thorn as something to discuss.
Just to reinforce this, I played without endbringer in my early iterations of the deck and the lack of top end was really apparent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldariel
And yes, mana rocks and accel should have a pretty sizable section if for no other reason than to encourage further testing that we have ommited.
Okay, how is this hodgepodge:
6-8 Sol Lands (Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors/Crystal Vein)
0- 8 Eldrazi Lands (Eldrazi Temple/Eye of Ugin)*
4 Cavern of Souls
5-11 Other Lands (Most common additional lands are Wasteland, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory)
0-8 Mana Accel (Mox Diamond, Mana Rocks, Spirit Guides, Grim Monolith, Lotus Petal)*
4 Chalice of the Void
3-4 Other Lock Pieces (Trinisphere/Thorn of Amethyst)
4-8 "Removal" (Warping Wail/Jitte/Dismember/All is Dust)**
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
0-4 Legendary Creature Control (Endbringer/Karakas)***
0-4 Phyrexian Revoker
0-8 "Small Eldrazi Option" (Eldrazi Mimic/Endless One)
0-6 "Mid Size Option" (Matter Reshaper/Metamorph)
0-3 "White Splash Option (Eldrazi Displacer)
0-2 "Problematic non-creature permanent removal Option" (World Breaker/Ugin/Eldrazi Titans)***
*Options between Eldrazi Lands and Mana Accel is about whether to focus on increasing Chalice @ 1 turn 1 chances or having a larger chance for TKS turn 2. The two options are inherently at odds. Some builds may try running a full set of both, but this may make the deck's threat count too low.
** If you have 2 or more dismembers you should think about include jitte so as to have some life gain.
*** In these two options are the "Top End" of the deck - it is recommended that you run at least 2 "Top End Cards"
I find the MUD primer structure very useful when explaining cards and builds. Should card usefulness ranking also be included? I find a lot of unexplained cards end up popping up once in a while in the MUD forums (even though the card is useless, Serrated Arrows).
EDIT:
Blue:
- Eldrazi Skyspawner - semi-ramp, flying for delver
- Drowner of Hope - powerful, but competes with Endbringer with card purpose, with Endbringer probably becoming the better choice. Can be used as a semi-ramp for Eye of Ugin
- Ruination Guide - Eldrazi lord that doesn't make the cut in legacy
Red:
- Eldrazi Obligator - can deal a big load of damage in a turn where you have mimic and steal a creature. Usually a game ender.
- Vile Aggregate - used with blue and is somewhat considered the Eldrazi Tarmogoyf.
Black:
- Wasteland Strangler - doesn't make the cut in legacy eldrazi
White:
- Eldrazi Displacer - main reason to go white, and has a very useful ability
Green:
- World Breaker - untested in legacy. 7cc might end up too high and his ability might be low impact.
Just a mini-list which we can grow and incorporate if color strategies are what people would like to look for.
Been following this deck for a while and decided to give it a go! This is what I'm planning to playtest in the next few weeks -- it's very fun playing a new archetype in a format like legacy but I still am not sure about many of the slots.
Here's the list:
Creatures (22)
4 Eldrazi Mimic
2 Endbringer
4 Endless One
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
Spells (13)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls (for some reason, I feel like this should be 3)
3 City of Traitors (The 4th feels "clunky" but it still might be worth playing 4 with 25 land)
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Mishra's Factory (Considering upping to 3 in place of a Cavern)
4 Wasteland
3 Eye of Ugin
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (Excellent with Dismember as an added bonus)
I'm also not playing any Warping Wail, which feels like a mistake but it's tough to find the right combination. Is 4 Chalice and 3 Thorns enough or is it better to play with the whole playset? My sideboard is a mess, so I'm not going to bother posting it until I at least sort out what I want there.
Side note, can't wait till this is in the Established section, so that I can stop switching between sub-forums lol :tongue:
I don't think usefulness is worth it right now since we don't know what is objectively more useful. As you can see from the skeleton, there are a variety of ways to build the deck - but its not like we figured out which one is better.
Can you please explain me Matter Reshaper?
I mean if it gets Thorn Jitte or Revoker ok, but Chalice and Endless are suicidical if found.
All other scenario it's just a cantrip where you might, instead, Drop a Phyrexian Metamorph on TSK or on an Endbringer to draw a honest 5 cards per turn
Matter Reshaper is a cantrip when killed or it can get a good card onto the battlefield (it's a may clause FYI, so chalice and endless aren't dead if you get them). It fits into the mid-size build and curves well if you are playing a 6-8 Eldrazi lands and no accel cards. Additionally, decks that play Reshaper are most likely colorless only and run jitte. It doesn't replace endbringer, but it does compete with metamorph. So far it seems that metamorph is preferred over reshaper.
It's "may", you can still choose to put the card into your hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
So at worst, it cantrips. It might be better to play some combination of Metamorph and the Revoker, I'm honestly not sure. Just what I'm planning to playtest, though obviously Gerry T did well with the Reshapers in SCG Philly as well. I based most of my list off his initial decklist.Quote:
When Matter Reshaper dies, reveal the top card of your library. You may put that card onto the battlefield if it's a permanent card with converted mana cost 3 or less. Otherwise, put that card into your hand.
There is no deck manipulation and Matter Reshaper doesn't solve any creature problems. This card is a conditional baleful strix that doesn't fly or trade in combat, but is colorless and eldrazi. You are better off having a relevant creature in this slot than wasting draw on reshaper and crossing fingers on a blind draw that turns into a relevant creature answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
The reason metamorph is far and away better than reshaper is that it can blank a goyf, and most importantly: it can copy a thorn while being cast as a creature - it is just better than sphere of resistance [and 3-ball for that matter] with more utility.
Fox, I totally agree with this - Reshaper seems pretty bad in a vacuum. If it dies, you get a random card and maybe the equivalent of 3 mana. But, it does not die, it's a vanilla 3/2 that the opponent just ignores. Seems pretty boring, huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Well, not when it costs 1 mana. I mean, that's why things like Sky Spawner are decent. If you've got an Eye on the table, this sucker is like a Wild Nacatl that cantrips. Once you realize that -- and you realize that it gives the Eldrazi deck another low-curve play for turns 1 and 2 to supplement Mimic - you can kind of see why some people choose it.
Me? I suspect you're better off without it, and instead running something with more impact. But, I can understand why it works.
This is the issue, are you porting the modern deck to legacy or are you winning in legacy because you can land lock pieces? This is the decision fork for colorless eldrazi, you either:Quote:
Originally Posted by MaximumC
-play lower eldrazi + temple, and suicide them into combat with jitte (because turn3 smasher/mimic isn't really how you get wins in legacy)
-play neither of those two, and have a deck that focuses on quick, repeatable, and stackable lock pieces into TKS and the inevitability of eye
Each approach has its own strengths, but I think the numbers really aren't there when it comes to win % and powering out the little eldrazi.
everything about the cc of Reshaper is also true for Displacer.
Simply Displacer + TSK are a combo that closes every match alone, while pumping Mimics to 4/4.
in that slot I mucb rather play Displacer or Mutamorph.