[DTB] U/R Delver

I also think this deck is much better off without DRS in the format, and should be one of the stronger decks going forward. I'm biased towards playing my Sligh list, but even the more traditional lists should be well positioned for the new meta.

Storm was hit pretty hard with the Probe ban, as Probe/Therapy was a huge part of their gameplan. The remaining combo matchups are easier to deal with. I still feel like BR Reanimator and Turbo Depths are the hardest to deal with because of their speed, but the increase in overall graveyard hate should keep BR Reanimator down, and hopefully the increase in D&T suppresses Turbo Depths a bit.

The fair matchups are where this deck should excel, with tons of removal for opposing creatures and a quick clock that can be hard for them to deal with.

Overall, this is a great time for UR Delver varients.

To add to what IamHandsome has said, I got to play 5 or 6 matches against a combo-oriented LED dredge last night with a list very similar to the aggro build he posted earlier, but with soul-scar mage instead of goblin guide, Grim lavamancer instead of stormchaser, and a vapor snag and a thunderous wrath (to see how I liked their performance) instead of forked bolts (also only 2 volcanics, because that's all I own). I did not drop a match. Game 1 felt very winnable, and having two surigcals and a grafdigger's cage in the side was useful. Vapor snag actually overperformed, never saw thunderous wrath outside of hands I had to mulligan anyway. Silent gravestone shutting off surgical extraction is annoying. Overall, the matchup always felt winnable, though close, as IamHandsome has said.

Sorry to double post, but the thread's been inactive for a while. I've been thinking for a minute about aggressive U/R lists like the ones IAmHandsome and I have been running, specifically in regard to the creature base. Because the goal is to get onboard on turn 1, we're running 12-13 1-drop creatures. 4 Delver and 4 Monastery Swiftspear I feel aren't particularly contentious choices for the first 8 slots. After that, there's usually 0-2 Grim lavamancer, and then 3-4 of another aggressive creature. I'm focused right now on that final 3-4 creatures. IAmHandsome has been running in recent lists Goblin Guide, I've been trying Soul-Scar Mage, and recent Grixis lists have included Bomat Courier.

Looking at each card individually (though admittedly with little testing this far on my part):

Goblin Guide
Guaranteed most damage t1, though I'm skeptical that the single point on t1 is worth more than the potential that prowess or extra cards have on later turns (assuming you reach them). Still, slightly better damage when you're in topdeck mode in theory assuming that you get through, because if you're only able to cast one spell a turn anyway (whatever you just drew) then Goblin guide also deals the second point when you draw land. This is only true where there is a single prowess creature already in play, but outside of stormchaser lists the only other prowess creatures are 1-2 Bedlam Revelers, not counting soul-scar, which in my thinking is competing for this slot and not sharing it, so I'm hesitant to give the "multiple prowess threats in play" angle too much weight, through it can't be completely forgotten. Of course, the drawback of giving your opponents lands exists, even if it does also give you information to work with, and in a format with brainstorm giving opponents extra draws, even if they're "dead" ones, is very real. worst case scenario being that you help dig your opponent out of a mana hole, allowing them to interact with you meaningfully. Overall, in pure damage this is the most consistent and lowest effort each turn option, which may be what we need, but I think that the combination of its drawback and how its consistency matches up against the higher ceiling on other options puts it below soul-scar, if only very slightly.

Soul-Scar Mage
Right out of the gates, this is the slowest option due to it's lack of haste. 2 toughness helps it survive well enough (it certainly helped to blank firestorm against dredge over and over) and prowess makes it play nicely with swiftspear, not creating a tension of whether to cast spells before combat or waiting until you have more information after. In an aggressive build that won't likely be an issue no matter what fills this slot, but in builds that want to play more counterspells, young pyromancer, etc, it may. On the positive side, prowess is still a great ability that combines very well with burn, and can turn this into a 3+ power attacker on key turns, and in stalled situations allow you to use cantrips and counters strategically to protect it from some damage-based removal. Ideally you never end up in those stalls, but not every game progresses ideally. The thing that pushes soul-scar ahead for me is that in addition to being a nice one-drop prowess creature, it's ability to spread around -1/-1 counters lets you break through problematic blockers to finish out a game. Being able to turn a gurmag angler, tarmogoyf, serra avenger, etc into a chump blocker instead of a trade is huge, and in a way makes your burn spells do more damage, in that a creature that you would have to 2-for-1 yourself to handle in combat is now a 1-for-1 to make it a non issue, effectively dealing extra points of damage to it in a race, and allowing you to push more extra points with your creatures. That's an effect I'm willing to give up haste for. It's possible that playing a non-haste one-drop in a build designed for speed means I'm compromising my own deckbuilding goals with this creature choice, but I think that enough decks can interact in combat well enough that the need to break through will occur whether you have haste in this slot or not, and so I'd rather have another way to do so on my one drop.

Bomat Courier
Forever a 1/1 but the haste is there. This is the lowest damage output option, but the ability to cash it in for cards makes it a card advantage engine with a very low deckbuilding cost for aggro. It's vulnerable, but as long as you can keep things clear for you, it can buy you the last couple of burn spells you need to finish the game after having to point them at creatures to fill it up. Decisions about whether to pop it are made much easier with fetchlands allowing you to look at your deck and know what's under it (if you're quick enough and observant). It plays into the gameplan of dumping your hand of burn pre-combat that your prowess creatures already want you playing. That being said it's not the best top deck, it doesn't deal as much damage, and it's not a guaranteed proposition since it may die with your key spells underneath it or never accrue value to begin with. On top of that, it creates tension with Bedlam Reveler, making me really only want one or the other. A person could run pyromancer or stormchase (which I think i'd prefer in this scenario) instead of reveler with courier, but I think reveler gives more a consistent form of card draw with a better body.

I haven't been able to play many matches since the bannings so this is all just theory, but I think it's a worthwhile discussion to have.

The super aggressive Ur lists suffer from not being consistent and also not being able to catch up in the mid game. I tested it with Goblin Guides but did not like it, definitely not as an approach to become the strongest Delver deck. Ur Delver is practically a "clock build", which means as long as you play Turn 1 a threat and have an active clock on the board, you are favored in a lot of matchups. If your opponent kills it and you don't have answers, the game gets extremely hard to take back unless you only need 1-2 more burn spells to finish your opponent of. Threats like TNN, Lavamancer and Snapcaster give more value than just being a tempo/aggro creature so I think instead of going more tempo Ill give Ur Delver a little more consistency.

Of the two versions of the deck in the 25th Anniversary Pro Tour Valentin Mackl brought the most interesting one, a counterspell oriented slower tempo decks with no Monestary swiftspears, no stifles or wastelands, and a spicy sideboard Isochron Scepter.

I love UR decks but they do not make a lot of sense in a world where Fatal Push Thoughtseize and Gurmag Angler are cards and they require a really minimum mana splash to be played.

If you go control and UR it makes no sense not to splash black for some staple good stuff. Additionally now we can play Liliana Last hope for more creature hate and graveyard recursion as well as win condition

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Originally Posted by Poron

I love UR decks but they do not make a lot of sense in a world where Fatal Push Thoughtseize and Gurmag Angler are cards and they require a really minimum mana splash to be played.

If you go control and UR it makes no sense not to splash black for some staple good stuff. Additionally now we can play Liliana Last hope for more creature hate and graveyard recursion as well as win condition

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This is very true. UR was great when it was aggro with Swiftspear and Probe but not as a control build, cards like Kcommand and Angler are better and easy to splash. The deck got nerfed so hard its very hard to not be mad at WotC. I don't know but a lot of matchups just got worse because we are not as fast as before and I can not make a good build out of it, I might just stop playing because I will definitely NOT buy Underground Seas or Tropical Island. RIP the most fun deck ever for me :'(

Probe was a super wrong card as well as Shaman. Anyway, Watery Grave for 10$ and Death’s Shadow are super viable

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Originally Posted by Poron

Probe was a super wrong card as well as Shaman. Anyway, Watery Grave for 10$ and Death’s Shadow are super viable

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yeah super wrong lmao... Why do people dont play Modern if they want a super fair and totally not busted format? Honestly this is competitive Legacy, just play either Casual Magic or Modern if you think the cards are to strong!! It is so easy. Anyway no need to argue because the ban is allready done because of the cry community. I hope WotC starts banning all other cards as well such as Show and Tell, ToA, Dark Depths etc. so Legacy can be a super healthy format again rofl.

Well SnT should be banned. It’s a 1 card combo that can be supported by a fucking bazilion of counters that can drop both a Livig Necropotence for 14 cards or a playyourdeck for 2U

Something very wrong with that card. Sneak Attack is already enough broken for a combo deck

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poron

Well SnT should be banned. It’s a 1 card combo that can be supported by a fucking bazilion of counters that can drop both a Livig Necropotence for 14 cards or a playyourdeck for 2U

Something very wrong with that card. Sneak Attack is already enough broken for a combo deck

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Legacy is a busted format and you should play busted cards. This is not salt, it is a serious statement that you should play Modern if you think Show and Tell or Deathrite Shaman are/were to powerful. Legacy is a completely wrong environment for you then. I dont really know what the motivation is to play Legacy if all this cards are to powerful in your opinion. I am actually curious because for somebody like me who plays Legacy since 2008 its something I do NOT understand.

Show and Tell is the only card that should go imho.. Sneak Attack and Through the breach are much fairer

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

This is very true. UR was great when it was aggro with Swiftspear and Probe but not as a control build, cards like Kcommand and Angler are better and easy to splash. The deck got nerfed so hard its very hard to not be mad at WotC. I don't know but a lot of matchups just got worse because we are not as fast as before and I can not make a good build out of it, I might just stop playing because I will definitely NOT buy Underground Seas or Tropical Island. RIP the most fun deck ever for me :'(

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You should consider trying the list I posted a few pages back that cuts Ponder and maindeck Force of Will for more burn spells. The deck is super consistent and can goldfish on turn 3 with pretty high consistency.

Crying over spilled milk in regards to bans doesn't help us any. If you're in the same boat as me, buying underground seas to just go ahead and splash black is off the table. Getting volcanics was already a lot for me. Instead, I'm determined to make this work. Hannni's Sligh list warrants testing next time I can get people together again to play, I agree that slowing down isn't as appealing in a world where black and green just give you better decks than straight u/r. We might try other stranger builds as well, like the wizards or isochron scepter decks. A silly idea is a turbo standstill deck that seeks to get down early pressure and build up cards in hand under a standstill until opponent must break it to survive, after which you burn them out. Seems gimmicky, but it might be fun to mess around with and standstills are cheap.

I've been playing the below since the probe ban:

//Main
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Brainstorm
3 Chain Lightning
4 Daze
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Fireblast
3 Flooded Strand
4 Force of Will
1 Forked Bolt
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Island
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Mountain
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Price of Progress
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Spell Snare
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Volcanic Island
2 Young Pyromancer

//Sideboard
2 Abrade
1 Dismember
1 Electrickery
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Spell Pierce
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Surgical Extraction

Played a 40-man tournament in London the other day and while I didn't do well, no game felt unwinnable and were all quite close. This could be due to the meta needing time to settle but it didn't feel underpowered and the games I lost were to creature heavy strats that I definitely have plenty of answer to. I might tweak my sideboard more but still waiting to see what happens with the meta.

Key thing was playing it out a little slower, but not too slow. Gotta get the balance right and that was the biggest challenge, wheras before you pretty much wanted to just throw your hand out asap and kill them before they can do much about it. TNN and peezy give you some mid-game viability without slowing down too much and the mana base is stable enough to not worry about casting, though I might drop a fetch for a third basic island.


The other build I've seen that might be interesting is more similar to the old probe decks, but using 2-3 mutagenic growth as a possible probe replacement and way to get into Bedlam Reveller. It's interesting but I always had a problem with mutagenic growth being a dead card if you have no creature on the board.

I think mutagenic growth is worth trying, although I think something like forked bolts would be more useful in that slot. mutagenic is so strictly an aggro card and not very flexible while bolt can go face or clear the way


This thread makes me sad. Super dead. and mostly ban belly aching about bans.

Also does this primer really not have a miracles section to it because "(RIP SDT)"? Between this and the probe whining it seems this thread will just take anything as a signal that a deck is dead, regardless of whats actually happening.

Ah well I guess its an ok generic "play these cards" primer but pretty lacking in depth. For example, when sideboarding what cards are bad in the example matchup and why should they be taken out?

As an aside it seems like the players on this deck were not as devoted to the shell as pilots of some other legacy decks, but I find thats true of a lot of delver/grixis/pile variant pilots, as soon as there is a new hotness or any resistance it's cash out and switch to that. Pile I understand, the manabase was stretched so far without drs that it probably couldn't exist. But are people in this thread seriously so angry that they lost gitaxian probe? As though the deck couldn't function without it?

I wonder what it is about fair blue decks that attract these kinds of players.


edit: formatting and a word.

I can't speak for others but this deck has always been my "don't want to think, just like to see the world burn" deck. Sometimes you want to burn but not insta-lose to combo. This is not a deck I play often.

I'm still wondering how the deck should be built without probe. It seems we are lacking a strong T1 creature to accompany swiftspear and delver. The third creature needs to be either scar mage or lavaman atm and they're both slow.

For now I'll play 2/2 but I'm on the lookout for a better 1 drop to appear.

this decklist made a Top 8 on a 100+ tournament:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=28236&iddeck=230427

I like seeing Ur Delver being successful. I still dont understand the card choice fully tbh:
1. 4 Stormchaser Mage and 3 Grim Lavamancer obv for Wizzard's Lightning. Yes I get that. Still Wizzard's Lightning as being an Instant is not important because you play 4 (!!) Stormchaser which you need to cast them as Sorceries anyway for triggering Prowess... So whats the point of playing 2 copies then?
2. Also playing a prowess build with that many lands and no Fireblast and Price of Progress main seems like wasted slots? Fireblast is a tremendous card which I always want BECAUSE of Prowess, its a free spell you throw in. Also PoP is way to powerful to cut them main but this was maybe a meta call?! But seeing Lands and Grixis Control in the finals, PoP is the card which actually wins these matchups.
3. 18 lands with no Wastelands is A LOT.
4. Also interesting to see no Swiftspears. Thats mainly because you need Wizzards so he played the much slower Stormchaser and 3 copies of Lavamancer instead for only 2 Wizzards Lightning...

My lack of contribution of good information is tied largely to the slow death of the magic scene where I live. I've gone from playing 3-4 times a week to being lucky to play a game of magic (any format) once a month. I love legacy and the rare occasions when those of us still around can get together for legacy nights are a treat, but it's rare and that means I have to rely on other people's testing and my own guesswork more than testing myself and posting results.

Hey guys I'm new to the deck, just started playing it last wednesday, but I was able to make it to top 8 in a local 1k at a competitive location in a 31 man tourney. I made some changes you all may find interesting and I felt paid dividends. My curent record with the deck is 7-2-3 across three events with two intentional draws. My Matchups were Grixis Delver-Deaths shadow-DnT-ID-ID- burn (loss) I am aware the two draws arent impressive but the deck felt very effective.

https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/20-0...?cb=1534781297

A few things to point out.

Preordain as a 4 of over ponder:

The ponders with card I want, ok card, and non-fetch land were brutal so i figured take a page out of noah walkers book and just skip all that thinking. Preordain has been amazing and I highly recommend trying it! Why settle for cards that are ok on top when you could just find the ones you want. I have since (since yesterday lol) replaced one with a second grim lavamancer because I am too much of a coward to cut ponder entirely.

One ponder:

I found myself flooding in the midgame despite being only a 16 land build. I figured one more cantrip would help. Generally I felt it did help, but I still think another lavaman would probably have been a bit better, but I definitely enjoyed all the cantriping. this may need more testing as the 9th cantrip definitely helped at points and never really was bad, but its hard to asses the impact vs. that of another lavaman.

One stormchaser, one reveller, one Lavamancer, One true name, One Pyromancer:

I really had been disliking stormchaser in testing, it usually feels like a more expensive swift spear that can fly. So I decided to start trimming stormchasers for goodstuff. Tnn is a monster so I added it, end of story. Young pyro is fully supportable with 16 lands as the deck will almost always have 3 lands in play by turn 3 in my experience. Not only that, but it turns your burn spells and cantrips into free fugitive wizards with flash. Basically the card turns being ahead by a little bit into being ahead by a lot.

I was able to grind out a win against grixis delver on the back of a singleton pyro token game one and if you get to make two tokens with it it becomes such a lead that fair decks just stumble. That and it staples even more value onto our efficient spells. Unlike grixis delver we have the luxury of being able to consistently have a bolt spell in hand and can point it at their face guilt free if we want to abuse pyro and advance our board. Pyro also lets you not over commit into removal.

One reveler and one lavaman is probably a non-synergy but to be honest the deck just belches its hand so fast i was never in a position where the two were fighting each other. I started with two reveller but I felt that playing two I would draw one earlier than I would like more often than I would like, but when it got through it was always amazing.

I now play two lavaman and am yet to test it, but there was so much unexploited graveyard in all my matches I can't in good conscience not exploit it more. Lavaman got in as a hedge. repeatable 2 damage has utility and it isn't that hungry for graveyard cards in the mid to late game that you couldn't support him and reveller in the same deck.

Two forked Bolts:

Killing two things is good. Having more one for one removal is good.


My general thoughts are that without probe the dedicated prowess version is a little underwhelming but we have access to a large pool of goodstuff now and are still one of if not the best deck at leveraging price of progress. (I PoPed off for 12 against one unfortunate lands player)

Don't underestimate the raw amount of good-stuff that we get access to, and like most fair U/R decks you need a very clear plan of interaction for what your opponent could do because your answers to non creature permanents and creatures over a certain size are less efficient. So you have to wring every last drop out of your hand for the desired results.