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If room permitted it, I'd run more, but I only run him as a singleton. Quite contradictory as he is such a solid early drop, but being legendary and rather weak on his own, I'd prefer to opt to just tutor him and go nuts. But I'm always happy opening him, and will almost always (almost being certain game states on turn 2) run him out turn 2 over a Survival, Goyf, or Confidant.Quote:
So I assume the number of Rofellos you are playing is not one, but more?
It's super tempting to run three or four Rofellos, but he is a weak draw after turn two or so. That makes for an interesting balance; I'm very happy to see him in my opening seven, but I am not willing to cut more cards for a creature that is only a bomb as a Survival target (as a 1-of) or on turn two.
Hi Joon,Quote:
Originally Posted by Joon
i would be very interested in your list, i also play Gbw with STE und Deeds main.
Thanks.
Edit : I also have the most problems with combomatchups and with my play-mistakes.
Here's my list at the moment :
1 Swamp
1 Plains
6 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Savannah
3 Bayou
1 Genesis
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Shriekmaw
3 Eternal Witness
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Krovikan Horror
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
4 Extirpate
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Duress
Still not sure if i should include anger, in my last testing with him i wasn't very pleased, but i think that needs more testing.
If you have problems against combo, why don't you do it like Windux and cut some cards for Enlightened Tutors and Solitary Confinement?
Confinement+Squee(+ Genesis) simply wins against combo. You might also maindeck 1 Gaddock Teeg or so. Just don't play Krovikan Horror anymore, it's out-dated.
And Duress should be Cabal Therapy, that card can sometimes generate CA that wins by itself.
Solitary confinement + squee without a counter wall, doesn't wins against combo. I'm not saying it isn't the best option, but don't believe that this combination alone will win you the game, because nowadays every combo deck (except Ichorid maybe) runs bounce or krosan grip main or a way to find it (wishes).
Thanks, Adan.
About Krovikan Horror, i still think it can be very good, but i must admit, i forget him too often. So i think Squee is the better choice.
The version from windux is very interesting, in this version it has to be squee. I must admit i don't like enlighted tutors very much, against decks with counterspells, its a bad card or carddisadvantage, but against aggro and combo i think its great. Will test it :smile:
About Duress - Therapy : at the moment i prefer duress, against the decks where i need it the most := combo. It always hits. But cabal is sometime blind, and without birds, i don't have a lot of creatures i want to sack into it. But i must admit i'am still not sure about that. Still working and testing.
After having played Di's list, I'd rather recommend you any american build, though, simply because they run Anger and Rofellos which make the deck incredibly sick and flexible.Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanbathez
I guess RGBSA is the "american" equivalent to RecSur: While RecSur runs Pernicious Deed as "insurance", RGBSA runs Burning Wish. Maybe it's something for you? I dunno, I will test it myself when I have the opportunity.
I am currently using this build.
// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
6 [P3] Forest (1)
4 [A] Bayou
4 [A] Taiga
// Creatures
1 [JU] Anger
1 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
1 [PLC] Big Game Hunter
4 [RAV] Birds of Paradise
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
1 [UD] Masticore
1 [VI] Quirion Ranger
1 [UD] Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
// Spells
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [PLC] Rough/Tumble
SB: 1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 1 [TO] Chainer's Edict
SB: 1 [MOR] Offalsnout
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [LRW] Primal Command
SB: 1 [B] Regrowth
SB: 1 [MI] Seeds of Innocence
SB: 1 [EVE] Soul Reap
SB: 1 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
I really love the MD, but have my doubts about the SB slot. I dont feel like they are all needed.
I do love:
Magus of the moon
Soul reap (this card seems great vs tombstalker/dreadnought etc)
Cabal therapy (I often wish for this to gain some extra security)
Seeds (prolly usefull when affinity gets played again)
Hull Breach
Rough/firespout (goblins don't like these options and they keep bop alive)
Other cards haven't been wish for so far. Do any of you have some good tips for the SB?
Well, my current build looks like this:
Lands
2 Plains
2 Swamps
6 Forests
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Savannah
3 Bayou
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Doran, the Siegetower
4 STE
3 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw
1 Genesis
1 Squee, Goblin Hanswurst
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Darkheart Sliver
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Vindicate
3 Survival of the Fittest
3 Sensei's Divining Top
SB (still tinkering on this one)
3 Extirpate
1 Faerie Macabre
3 Duress
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
This deck is a lot more controlish but can operate WAY better without Survival. I can't think how all those Highlander-like lists survive without Survival on the table...?
This deck is able to go the Rock-way: Discard stuff, destroy stuff, drop a critter, win. If you put Survival somewhere in there it gets BROKEN.
The lack of Anger is sad but I won't splash Red only for this card and see one to two Wastelands ruin my Hasty-plan.
As I stated before, the SB is experimental. Extirpate and Macabre against Graveyardstuff/Engines. Duress/Teeg against Control and Combo (Teeg also against Staxx :P), Grip/Choke against the current wave of U-based-CB-Nought-gayness-decks-of-doom.
Suggestions?
@Adan : I wanted to test Di`s List, it looks very interesting and powerful, but for tournament testing i still miss Rofellos. My Goal is to test all survival variants. Di`s looks much more aggro to me ???
I play survival at different tournaments with different meta, f.e. in one there is a lot of combo, in the other i have to play a lot of mirrors, so i'am still searching for my version, which i can fit for the relative meta.
@ Joon : Looks similar to mine, i'am also not sure how these lists win without survival on the table.(No offense)
Your vindicates are remarkble, how are they working for you ?
And the darkheart sliver also ?
Don't you think 4 STE ist too much ?
Have you tested kitchen finks ? I love him more and more, but that depends on meta and play style.
About SB : similar to mine, i prefer faerie in the main and i also play sometimes EE in the SB, but that are minor differences.
Vindicate was Duress before but I never felt like needing Discard 5-6, so I tested Extirpate in that slot...it was solid but not great. Then I tinkered with several things I finally did not like (Therapys and more Critters). So I just thought about what rapes me if it hits the board - the only answer to this is Humility. You can deal with everything else but not with that one (without an Deed). I also noticed that several lands to annoy me (Stronghold, Ruins, Maze of Ith...) and so I tested Vindicate.
Vindicate is pretty good in this deck imo - it makes you less dependant on Survival due the fact you don't need Utilitycritters to destroy stuff anymore and is generally never dead - you WILL find a target that annoys you and if its a Goyf for that you don't had the Sword/Deed/Seize. It just makes the deck more flexibel without hurting good Matchups.
I tested Kitchen Finks. They are pretty good, especially with Deed. But I also felt like that they don't play the role of "The Lifegain Slot" as they don't get you much life NOW. I know that the Sliver I play only gives one Life more but he also utilizes the Harmonic Sliver who will just die chumping Goyf after he hit play. Also, Genesis + Sliver is faster online against decks like GoyfSligh due the fact you can sacrifice the Sliver and get three life every turn. I'd like to play both, a fair number of Finks (at least two, three would be great) and the single sliver so that you have stalling machines and effective lifegain.
Slots that differ are 1 Elder and 1 Witness...I cut those cards often (3 Elder and 2 Witness is still solid) to test new things. Maybe I'll test Finks in these slots, we'll see.
I play the full playset Elder as he
a) helps you to be more aggressive (more Mana so that you can dodge Daze effectively)
b) is my only way to "fetch" the Swamps.
Maybe I can get down to three but the plays I like the most include Turn 2 Elder so I'm not sure about this.
To address the Sideboard again: I generally dislike specific Utility creatures in the main (somehow I even dislike Harmonic as he does nothing on his own, but Indrik Stomphowler is too expensive). The only ones I'll ever play are Squee/Genesis/Maw/Harmonic. Everything else should be able to something on their own (Darkheart Sliver is at least a Grizzly Beat who gives me life when he dies). That's the reason why I'm currently thinking about going back to Loxodon Hierarch in the Darkheart Slot. If you topdeck Hierarch, you will be happier than topdecking that Darkheart-Emo-Sliver.
So all in all the only flexible slots are Darkheart Sliver/1 Witness/1 Elder. Everything else has been thoroughly tested and won't get cut - so far.
Don't get me wrong, i only wanted to know how they worked for you. No offense or things like that :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Joon
About 4 STE : Sometimes against aggro he is so great, but when our deck has to be agressiv, and the drawing more than 1 isn't that exciting. But who knows.....still thinking and testing all from 1 to 4
About vindicates : i know what you mean, i also had problems with Acardemy ruins and stronghold, so that could be an out. And i also had sometimes the feeling that duress isn't the best choice for that slot, but until yet I haven't found somehing better until yet, but it depends on the meta that i expect. If i expect a lot of combo and control , i would still run them main.
About Loxodon : I would still play him main, he gains 4 life, is a very solid beater and last but not least he can regenrate your other creatures f.e. after a deed. I thought about playing Kitchen Finks and Loxodon.
FYI, this is mostly for preboard.
OKay, goblins... I've been doing some testing and I obviously can't play this MU at all. I have been using an RGB build because blue hasn't been working out for me and I wanted to play with something that did work. So I just don't know what to do. I end up getting in a favorable board position with Survival and STILL end up losing. I know this isn't the deck.
Here is the list I have been using:
3 Bayou
3 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
5 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Survival
4 Burning Wish
4 Thoughtseize
3 Therapy
4 Birds
1 Ranger
1 Rofellos
1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Genesis
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Magus
3 Eternal Witness
2 Shriekmaw
1 FtK
1 Masticore
1 Big Game Hunter
1 WBE
Relevant SB wish cards
1 Rough/Tumble
So a little different with the four Magus. I think they are pretty lame in the MU, only protecting from mana denial. This is important because Fanatic is one of the most annoying creatures in the deck, but it still is lackluster late in the game when you should have basics out and being a 2/2 sucks. It is nice in other MUs so I did want to try out 4 and see how it preformed against something like goblins.
The problems I have been having are mostly related to mana. Rofellos usually never lasts and Birds either. Wasteland totally kills. Trying to operate on 2-3 basics is almost impossible. Getting out a Magus usually helps by turning off Port and Waste but it sucks as a blocker and doesn't hang out long.
In some games, I do actually stabalize. Sometimes with and sometimes with out a Survival. Without having a Survival, I usually don't stay in the game long. If I do get a Survival and have 5 or more mana I know I should win the game. I usually am at low life at this point (this may be the problem because of not chumping or trading early enough). Sometimes they go and get a Ringleader and top into goodness and just win or burn me out with SGC. How can I prevent this? How do I get in a favorable position while not being too low on life so that they can't kill me with bunches of 1/1s that get through?
I am still trying different lists and am unsure if Burning Wish is worth it. Maybe the white splash for Swords would help. Maybe a Goblin Sharpshooter would work well to stop the hordes. I am unsure. So to summarize:
1. Chump a lackey with Birds? (I am sure you should but their mana denial hits hard. Still, a yes, I am sure)
2. Do you NEED a Survival for the hand to be keepable? I just can't stay in the game without it, but mulling hurts just as much because you need all the cards you can get in this MU.
3. Is splashing white for Swords better than having a more stable mana base?
4. Are there any other cards that are nice to have MD in this MU?
5. Any other tips?
The Goblins matchup is the primary reason I won't ever run a strict RGB build. Despite claims and arguments for Burning Wish targets and whatnot, the deck is much weaker against aggro than all other versions. You have essentially no outs to Goblin Lackey on the draw barring Birds and Ranger, which more often than not will get hit by Fanatic/Incinerator/Weirding. That is horrible, given how consistent is at dropping them on turn one. If they have an opening Lackey and it goes unblocked, the only out in your entire deck is Burning Wish. You don't have enough fast creatures and removal to keep up otherwise. To answer your questions though:
1. Yes. You always chump Lackey.
2. No. Opening Survival isn't essential. If you can slow the ground game for a while you should be ok until you draw it, or a number of Tarmogoyfs and Shriekmaws, or Burning Wish.
3. Despite people arguing against manabase issues, it is a very slight difference in playing the deck. My GBWr list has a whopping 9 nonbasics (4 Bayou, 3 Savannah, 2 Taiga) with 8 fetchlands. How the hell is that unstable? Adding the best removal in the game, along with a faster destruction card in Harmonic Sliver, along with relevant combo hate (Gaddock Teeg) justifies that in a heartbeat.
4. The only real good cards you can run in the main to deal with this and not suck entirely elsewhere is stuff like Nimble Mongoose. I run Mongoose primarily because of Goblin Lackey. It's a shame most other people don't like him.
5. Engineered Plague in the sideboard? Hell, you can always just run Goblin Pyromancer too. I did for a long time when Goblins was really popular.
I'm also surprised you were having trouble against them with the blue build; I had a blast playing against Goblins with blue. Didn't have Swords, but between Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, Shriekmaw, and Masticore in the main, followed by Plague, BEB, and Stifle in the side, I was blowing them out.
If Goblins are an issue, I mean REALLY an issue, and your manabase can support it, you can consider Saprazzan Legate or the Quasali Ambushers from the new set as free Lackey-killers. Another alternative is Fanatics of your own, and yet another is Goblin Pyromancer or Gloomdrifter. If you're on Savannahs, the Ambusher might be the call since it's a huge surprise (lol!) and will, I assume, kill at least one dude and trade for another or some removal.
Agree with you on the first part. I need more ways to stop lackey. Mongoose was great with the blue splash and will go in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
1. Okay, this is what I have been doing. I am glad I am not a complete retard :)
2. Okay.
3. The fact that they Fanatic all of your non land sources and then waste the Savannah you got for the lackey means it is more unstable than a RGB. I wasn't saying "unstable", but it is more so than a 3 color build. Of course Swords-ing is worth it but it does set us back. How do you recover?
4. I agree.
5. I run it. I was more interested in stuff pre board because that was what I was testing and I wasn't winning like I knew this deck should.
The blue build did worse than RGB. Mongoose was good but having cards like Brainstorm stuck in your hand because you couldn't get that trop sucked. I was never able to stabalize because I never had the mana to do so. It was better postboard, but again just one waste would wreck me. I am not even exagerating how ridiculous he was drawing. ALl his hands had either a Lackey or Port AND Waste. Maybe it was luck but games weren't very close.
SB-ing: Do you bring in Grip to deal with Vial?
I am going to try your list because it does have a better goblins MU.
Hey, here is my RGB list post Alara:
// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [PT] Mountain (1)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [A] Taiga
4 [B] Bayou
2 [10E] Forest (3)
2 [9E] Swamp (4)
2 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
// Creatures
1 [PY] Spore Frog
1 [JU] Anger
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [EVE] Wicker-Bough Elder
1 [ON] Undead Gladiator
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [ALA] Fleshbag Marauder
4 [TO] Mesmeric Fiend
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [FD] Razormane Masticore
1 [TSB] Spike Feeder
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [WL] Buried Alive
4 [ALA] Jund Charm
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MOR] Offalsnout
Right now I need help with the SB. Any ideas?
Okay, I've been testing your build Di and love it. Goblins MU is so much better and I love it. Swords is something I underestimated in survival. I did change a few things because I don't have bobs yet. I went with 2 additional witnesses and 1 FtK. Probably too much removal (I am sure it is) but it was nice to be crushing goblins. I still need to get familiar with your deck, though, to be comfortable with certain MUs. Thanks for the help and I'll keep testing to give some actual insight later.
About Di's list, is this one actually?
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis
2 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Shriekmaw
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Masticore
1 Harmonic Sliver
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Forest
I have some questions:
I understand that with so many shuffle effects in this deck SDT are good, but maybe having only 2 is subpar. Why do not include other cards, like the 4th confidant?
Another question is that only 20 land seems so little in this deck, once you have a survival in play you only want to draw lands to abuse it and if you don't have it you will suffer against land destruction until you top deck ranger.
And the last one is that if moongose is for a defensive plan, why do not add 2 wall of roots that support very well the survival or 2 kitchen finks to life gain?
Thanks
Thank you Shards of Alara for giving survival even more fishy dudes to spin up when you need them. How come nobody has mentioned Ethersworn Canonist in this thread? Will it not help them storm-matchup immensely? Or am I overseeing something that makes it not as great as I first imagine?
Anyhow, I will definately try it.
PS.
Also I wonder exactly what list is beeing refered to when people say "Di's list".
DS.