[Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

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Originally Posted by raharu

Why does Mirror Entity throw off AEther Vial? They have heaping gobs of synergy, with the Entity being incredibly mana hunger, and Vial freeing up said mana, why is it that this interaction prompted you to scrap the idea??

you don't really have to ramp up vial to play Mirror Entity...

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Those two statements contradict each other. If I ramp up Vial to 3, I get to free up my lands (all 3 of them, whoop-de-doo) to pump into Entity, but that cuts off that Vial from playing anything else aside from additional Mirror Entities, which is pretty lame. If I don't ramp up Vial to 3, then I'm leaving myself open if I pass with only 1-2 lands untapped, or force myself to wait which kind of goes against the whole point of mana-denial because I'm giving them time to recover.

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

Those two statements contradict each other. If I ramp up Vial to 3, I get to free up my lands (all 3 of them, whoop-de-doo) to pump into Entity, but that cuts off that Vial from playing anything else aside from additional Mirror Entities, which is pretty lame. If I don't ramp up Vial to 3, then I'm leaving myself open if I pass with only 1-2 lands untapped, or force myself to wait which kind of goes against the whole point of mana-denial because I'm giving them time to recover.

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I think his argument was that you play the Mirror Entity, and by Vialing in everything else (leaving Vial at 2) you free up the mana you need to use the Entity Effectively.

Doesn't really mean it's a good argument, but I figured I would clarify.

Allrighty....

Since this thread has seemed to die out as of the last few weeks I decided it was time to dust off some slivers and take the deck from a different vantage point. Counterbalance is king pretty much right now. If you don't have a way to deal with that enchantment or a workaround for it, it's not really worth playing.

The lists most people have been running are 3c Countersliver based decks that most of the time just fall in the face of the hate. Not quite as fast as agro yet not quite as controlling as Thresh. I decided to play with my slivers as a more aggresive build. Here is my list:

Creatures:
4x Crystalline Sliver
4x Muscle Sliver
4x Sinew Sliver
2x Winged Sliver
2x Harmonic Sliver
1x Talon Sliver
1x Frenetic Sliver

Spells:
4x Aether Vial
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Eladamri's Call
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Swords to Plowshears

Lands:
4x Windswept Heath
4x Flooded Strand
2x Tundra
2x Tropical Island
1x Platuea
1x Taiga
4x Mutavault

SB:
Meh....

The advantage that I found was that not having to use cards and resources on counter magic allowed me to focus on the board a lot more than I could have in previous builds of the deck. Mutavault is INSANE in this deck when you get them online turn 3-4. It's a land drop and a 2/2 Sliver when active.

Splashing red allows for a controversial Frenetic Sliver as a one of to search for with the Call's. It is the theory that in the face of Wrath/EE/Damnation/Deed I would rather have a 50% chance of my army dieing than a 100%. Most matchups you never draw/play that guy because you just don't need it, but when you need him--boy is he good.

More importantly than frenetic sliver, red allows me to play lightning bolt which I found increasingly useful as the days go on. He's as good as a STP against most creatures that aren't named Tarmogoyf and he does go to the dome. I won't bore you with why bolt is a good card.

I am going to keep testing this deck out but I wanted to slightly re-invigorate the chat here with some new ideas. Lets keep this thread alive and not all die and fade away into the Thresh is god there's nothing else mentality.

BoomChild

Let's see...

You have 14 color-producing lands in a 4 color deck. Even with Vials, that's bad. 4 Eladamri's Call is overkill, because you have both BStorm and Ponder anyway. And why Frenetic over Hibernation?

The red splash hasn't been discussed at all though. Maybe there's something there that's waiting to be found, I don't know.

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

Let's see...

You have 14 color-producing lands in a 4 color deck. Even with Vials, that's bad. 4 Eladamri's Call is overkill, because you have both BStorm and Ponder anyway. And why Frenetic over Hibernation?

The red splash hasn't been discussed at all though. Maybe there's something there that's waiting to be found, I don't know.

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It is true that there are 14 lands that make color'd mana in the deck, but one of the strength's of the deck is that it is usually only using it's mana to cast cantrips and tutors. Vial is the #1 way I have been using to get the dudes into play. I have tested the thresh matchup and it shouldn't be a huge surprise but a vial on turn one is equal to about a 60% match win, again in testing.

The bigger issue I believe than only having 14 Color'd sources is that the ratio of fetches to non is 4-3, which means eventually I have nothing to fetch. I thought that was going to be a big problem in the small tournaments I have played in and it wasn't that bad. There was only one insance that I lacked a fetch to find blue mana for cantrips, but I had vial on turn 1 off a Mutavault and was able to cast and vial the slivers into play and won.

As for the frenetic over hibernation route, I strongly believe that with my meta shifting more and more to a dominant thresh, secondary thresh hate, and goblins back on the rise, the red route is more effective. I want to lay out the thought process that I went through to come to my conclusions.

Red:
Frenetic Sliver
- Does not cost 2 life to return
- Slivers have 50% to live and come back with "Haste"
- Allows for "Overextension" into EE/Wrath/Deed effects and still come out with dudes.
- Opens up access to Bolt and other strong red threats
- Allows some Reach for the deck against strong agro
- Introduces 8 turn one effects to kill Lackeys and annoying stuff.

Black:
Hibernation Sliver
- Is a guarenteed sliver back in hand
- Does cost 2 life
- Life is beginning to matter a lot more now than ever (IMHO)
- Gives access to Discard/Removal
- Stronger in a Meta with more combo orientated decks
- Potential to also play Necrotic Sliver as a pseudo "Vindicate"

It may just be that Meathooks will become a completely Meta-Dependent deck choice with multiple versions based upon what you will see in your area. I believe this is one of the strengths of the deck as well as a liability for some. If one is incapable of adjusting to their own meta and net-decks this thing, they are going to come out with very poor results because of a lack of foresight.

At least for me, Red is a darn good choice right now and it's a little refreshing not playing the counter magic and focusing more on getting the job done with burn and big dudes. If you have any concerns please load this list into apprentice or MWS and give it a whirl and check out how effective the vial + Tutors can be.

BoomChild

ps... I believe 4 Call is the complete correct number for this decklist. The support spells in Ponder/BStorm/Call are all set up to support the Vial. 80% of the time I was tutoring for Harmonic or Muscle effects on opponent's EoT to clear out something prohibitive. Please proxy this list up and test it out some before you respond. I am always willing to defend my position, but not against theory. Use facts.

Since I play against Stax decks all the time, I really hate mana bases without enough basic lands to ensure its stability throughout mid and late game. Usually, it goes as the 2 main colors having basics and the splashes relying on whatever duals I have access to. But there is no space in your mana base to add those things. Also, you said you didn't have an easy access to blue mana... that is for having half of your lands being able to call themselves islands. BTW, Mutavault owns... but I'm not sure if 4 is the right number. Testing UWb with 2 in so far (with 3 tops + 3 vials).

Also, losing the only Frenetic Sliver you got to its own ability is the worst thing that can happen when trying to escape from a sweeper. What do you do with the next sweeper?

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Red:
Frenetic Sliver
1 - Does not cost 2 life to return
2 - Slivers have 50% to live and come back with "Haste"
3 - Allows for "Overextension" into EE/Wrath/Deed effects and still come out with dudes.
4 - Opens up access to Bolt and other strong red threats
5 - Allows some Reach for the deck against strong agro
6 - Introduces 8 turn one effects to kill Lackeys and annoying stuff.

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About the above:
1 - But it comes out at least one turn later, in which you might take enough damage as you would with Hibernation.
2 - This is the main problem with Hibernation. Aether Vial helps, though.
3 - The more aggressively you rush against them, the quicker they must try to clean the table. But this is not the case, since you have to tutor for this sliver and then use a full 3 mana to play it. It is slower than Hibernation and does not give them less time to have access to sweepers, which is a comfort for them.
4 - Just make sure your mana base can support the rainbow.
5 - Read numba 4.
6 - Maindecking 8 is nice. I usually carry some BEB on my sideboard only for red annoying games.


EDIT: I didn't notice it was a full aggro deck. Reading feels good sometimes...

So far the only tournament testing I have done with this deck was playing it in an 8man with this meta.

Enchantress
Stifle/Naught
WW/Worship
Goblins
Black Thresh
Terrageddon
Slivers-Me
Red Thresh

I played the Enchantress Deck and won on the back of Harmonic Slivers, Beat the WW/Worship deck on the back of better beats, and split with the black thresh.

I'm very happy with the current testing and playing of the deck. The colors aren't usually an issue and I would love to sneak some more colored sources and will probably cut the vaults down to three for my next tourny. But in the end those guys just cut through the control matchups. Btw, my version of the deck doesn't counter anything as I have cut the counterspells completely.

A few points that should be outlined:

A) AgroSliver is ineffective without a superpowerful engine, generaly consisting of 4x Survival of the Fittest, 4x AEther Vial, and 4x Oversold Cemetry. Without a good engine (the proceeding engine is the strongest I've seen), agrosliver is just a shitty scrub deck. Engines give the deck versatility and they allow you to win the long game, as well as have the utility slivers to win quickly. Most of the time, ArgoSlivers are forced to make the trade of an instable manabase for the ability to use five colors so that they have access to what they need to be decent, opening up a vulnerability to Wastaland that hampers the deck.

B) agrosliver is not Meathooks. Meathooks, more apropriately known as "Counter-Sliver", is an agro-control deck based around slivers. I don't believe this is the apropriate thread for discusing sliver-based Agro decks.

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

The red splash hasn't been discussed at all though. Maybe there's something there that's waiting to be found, I don't know.

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Red slivers, eh? I think Volt did some testing with red. I remember staring back at a swarm lead by Hunter Sliver, and I was not happy. Heart Sliver is ok I guess, but your dudes already get pseudo-haste anyway. Theres Blade Sliver for more beatdown but it kinda ruins Vial to pump it up to 3. Homing Sliver is interesting, kind of like an overcosted Survival with no fringe benefits to abuse (Genesis, Squee).

Mutavault is interesting but not in a 4 color deck.

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Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx

Mutavault is interesting but not in a 4 color deck.

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On the contrary, I think Mutavault is the most interesting in a 4c Deck :laugh:

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Originally Posted by BoomChild

On the contrary, I think Mutavault is the most interesting in a 4c Deck :laugh:

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Yeah. Nothing better than not being able to cast stuff!

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Originally Posted by BoomChild

On the contrary, I think Mutavault is the most interesting in a 4c Deck :laugh:

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Because?

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Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx

Because?

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Because in the tournaments I have played in, it has never been a problem to have multiple Mutavault in play. The strength lies with the versatility of Vial. The need to recognize opening hand strength and where you want to take the game and reach maximum potential is the strength.

Vial allows the fudging of mana bases. The only thing I have been using my mana for is Portent, Bstorm, E.Call, Removal. The slivers find a way into play through the Vial. Mutavault is very exciting in this deck with a 2/2 sliver that's a land drop.

Vial is the easiest play ever against decks without blue or deed. Against those, you better keep it protected, which you can't do.

Imagine you aren't able to land a Vial. Game over?

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Originally Posted by Jaiminho

Vial is the easiest play ever against decks without blue or deed. Against those, you better keep it protected, which you can't do.

Imagine you aren't able to land a Vial. Game over?

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Damn skippy. I've seen even compotent players playing all gold lands scoop after having first turn AEter Vial dazed/ Forced when playing agroslivers. You can't protect Vial, so you pretty much loose.

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Originally Posted by BoomChild

Because in the tournaments I have played in, it has never been a problem to have multiple Mutavault in play. The strength lies with the versatility of Vial. The need to recognize opening hand strength and where you want to take the game and reach maximum potential is the strength.

Vial allows the fudging of mana bases. The only thing I have been using my mana for is Portent, Bstorm, E.Call, Removal. The slivers find a way into play through the Vial. Mutavault is very exciting in this deck with a 2/2 sliver that's a land drop.

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I dont see how any of this is different with less than 4 colors. Maybe you can get away with it easier because of Vial, but there is no way that a 4 color deck abuses Mutavault more than a 3 color deck.

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Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx

Red slivers, eh? I think Volt did some testing with red. I remember staring back at a swarm lead by Hunter Sliver, and I was not happy.

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If yu were playing agro, you were probably crying and throwing cards. I hate that beast. Being forced to block a 4/4 sliver with your Confidant/ Mage/ not 'Goyf creature is depressing. It's like more removal, especially with Talon. Maybe we need more testing...

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Originally Posted by raharu

If yu were playing agro, you were probably crying and throwing cards. I hate that beast.

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I think I was playing aggro control something, I dont remember. But I would have punched Volt through MWS if I could. :P

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Originally Posted by raharu

If yu were playing agro, you were probably crying and throwing cards. I hate that beast. Being forced to block a 4/4 sliver with your Confidant/ Mage/ not 'Goyf creature is depressing. It's like more removal, especially with Talon. Maybe we need more testing...

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Hunter Sliver certainly is nuts, especially when combined with Heart Sliver so you can use dudes you drop as removal in the same turn.

I tried a 'Star-Spangled' (RWU) sliver build a long while back, but found that the addition of Hunter, Heart, and Blade sliver wasn't enough to mitigate the loss of Muscle sliver. However, now that we have Sinew, it might not be a bad idea to look into it again.

As far as I'm concerned, in a RWU version of slivers, these are absolutely necessary:

Heart Sliver
Hunter Sliver
Talon Sliver
Crystalline Sliver (duh)
Sinew Sliver (duh)
Winged Sliver (the evasion makes up for the lack of synergy with Hunter, and plus it lets you pick off what fliers they do have so your guys can get through)

And that's a fair amount of Slivers. The deck would more than likely be more Aggro than Aggro Control, and you'd have to decide whether the boost you get from haste or provoke is worth ditching black (specifically, Hibernation Sliver) and the increased vulnerability to mass removal. Although, by having :u::r: you get access to Frenetic Sliver (I believe someone mentioned this earlier), so you can statistically save about half your dudes. Still though, that doesn't really strike me as efficient. Also, :r::w: gives you Cautery, but again that's not really much consolation. I will comment, though, that Sidewinder + Hunter is all sorts of sexy, especially with Talon.

I imagine that any sort of :r::w::u: list would likely have CounterTop (and maybe Force or Daze) as it's control, then have Vial + Lots of slivers as beats/removal/more beats. It would also probably run Swords, because it has white in it.

Also, I've always wanted to fit Telekinetic Sliver into a deck. But it still probably doesn't fit in here.

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Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx

I think I was playing aggro control something, I dont remember. But I would have punched Volt through MWS if I could. :P

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Seriously. Most people think that the reason to splash red is Heart Sliver, but in actuality Hunter Sliver is the be-all end-all MVP for red Slivers. I'd cut Heart before I cut Hunter out of a red list.