[Deck] Armageddon Stax

Thanks Skeggi

Sorry about that, LotV = Leyline of the Void -> Not really useful but I had to play with what I got at the time. :)

I did notice your post, but the thing is I'm preparing for a meta that's pretty much unpredictable. So I need a sideboard that could provide me the most versatility, something that could work against most meta.

I'm thinking along the lines of:
3 Suppression Field
2 Aura of Silence
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Karmic Justice - > I'm unsure if its really needed because I haven't seen someone in the last few tournies I joined/watched play deeds.
3 Oblivion Rings

Anyway, I'll be playing the deck again tomorrow, if the tourney scheduled pushes through, let you know how it did for me.

Oh, btw, I really like Silent Arbiter, seems like a fun fun card to play. But should it be played vs say Windborn muse? seems like the two technically functions as Ghostly Prison 5-6.

I prefer Windborn Muse WAY over Silent Arbiter. But that's because I have Trygon Predator trauma :tongue: Silent Arbiter would work very nice with Maze of Ith or Kor Haven ofcourse. If you're not runnig those, I don't see a reason to run Silent Arbiter over the Muse.

Nihil is right: you should probably spend those 3 Wheel of Sun and Moon slots on something else.

If you're not sure about the Karmic Justice, cut them back to 2 or 3.

P.S. yeah, Leyline of the Void in Armageddon Stax...lawl ;)

I must say, I'm really impressed with how this conversation is evolving... Lots of great ideas...

I'll post my creatures list later, but to respond to some of the conversation over the last day...

Windborn Muse - Yes, she will act like additional Ghostly Prisons. And she will be removed more often and more easily. Paying 4 for a 'more fragile' Ghostly Prison is ok if you really need more than 4. I think it's a meta/personal call. I've always found that in those situations, it's generally better to play 'actual' removal (EE, O-Ring, even Wrath). Another way to think of it... You should only try so hard to 'slow' your opponent down before it's actually better to just 'deal' with the problem...

Tangle Wire - Great against true control decks (Landstill & MUC). Sucks everywhere else. If you face a lot of control, play it. If you don't, don't waste the space. It was considered an auto-include in early versions of the deck and considerable testing went into it. Good players know how to play around it with decks like Thresh and Goblins. You will only get the advantage against decks that play significantly less permanents than you.

Skeggi - You're right, it's difficult and rare when you get to Armageddon and then lay a Magus all in one turn. But the number of times you get to play out Magus with a Mox and lands, 'Port' your opponent for a turn, Armageddon (+ free Wrath) on the next turn, and then keep your Magus while you rebuild, is significant. It's all in how you play it. If only the land produced a mana, I'd be for playing a playset!

Sideboard Options - Leyline of the Void was actually an option against Flash, I don't think I've seen it suggested since. My best advice for sideboarding is to try and keep your options proactive. Yes, Karmic Justice is good against Deed and other sweepers. But Needle will stop Deed and lots of other cards. I really believe you need to keep your options open as much as possible. Remember, this is where you really tailor the deck to suit your needs. Lots of choices may sound silly, but are actually very, very powerful (I use Guardian of the Guildpact in mine)!

-FB...

Just something slightly funny from a MWS log: (beware teh Magi)


0:02:04 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz puts a 1/1 Goblin token into play
0:02:08 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz puts Empty the Warrens to Graveyard from Play
0:02:09 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:11 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:12 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:15 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:16 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:16 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:23 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:24 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:24 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:24 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:24 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:25 [Ouroboroz] <Ouroboroz> End my turn
0:02:28 [jazzykat] <jazzykat> Ok
0:02:30 [jazzykat] It is now turn 3 (jazzykat)
0:02:30 [jazzykat] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:02:31 [jazzykat] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:02:31 [jazzykat] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:02:31 [jazzykat] jazzykat draws a card
0:02:31 [jazzykat] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:02:49 [jazzykat] jazzykat plays Ancient Tomb from Hand
0:02:50 [jazzykat] <jazzykat> Thinking
0:02:52 [jazzykat] jazzykat plays Mox Diamond from Hand
0:02:53 [jazzykat] jazzykat plays Ancient Tomb from Hand
0:02:57 [jazzykat] jazzykat puts Ancient Tomb to Graveyard from Play
0:03:01 [jazzykat] It is now the End Phase, End Of Turn Step
0:03:02 [jazzykat] <jazzykat> End my turn

0:03:16 [jazzykat] It is now turn 5 (jazzykat)
0:03:16 [jazzykat] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:03:17 [jazzykat] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:03:18 [jazzykat] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:03:18 [jazzykat] jazzykat draws a card
0:03:18 [jazzykat] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:03:20 [jazzykat] jazzykat plays Plains from Hand
0:03:22 [jazzykat] jazzykat taps Ancient Tomb
0:03:22 [jazzykat] jazzykat taps Mox Diamond
0:03:22 [jazzykat] jazzykat taps Plains
0:03:23 [jazzykat] jazzykat plays Magus of the Tabernacle from Hand
0:03:25 [jazzykat] jazzykat's life total is now 6 (-2)
0:03:27 [jazzykat] <jazzykat> End my turn
0:03:32 [Ouroboroz] <Ouroboroz> NO way
0:03:38 [jazzykat] <jazzykat> WAY
0:03:49 [Ouroboroz] <Ouroboroz> gg
0:03:51 [jazzykat] <jazzykat> gg
0:03:53 [<System>] <System> Player Lost

Ahh..Im not sure where in manila you play legacy, but we haven't had a real tournament on legacy here in manila, for such a looooooooong looooong time...
Thus, the meta unpredictability.

But to be sure there will be landstill, rock, and goblins...Only a few players really play combo here.. maybe around 3 regular players out of 20,which would be namely iggy pop, salvager solidarity, there was a couple of belcher and ichorid players last time there was a tourney which was.. last year? hahah its been soo long that I don't remember...

For the foreigners, if they arent busy with standard, I wouldn't have a clue.

Although for sideboard options I would pretty much say suppression fields and karmic justices are standard..aura of silence as well..maybe as a 2 of..

I will be bringing this deck as well. Although my sideboard will not be complete by the time the tournament comes, I will have to make do with what I have.

I was actually hoping to be the only one to have this deck on the tourney as I have never seen a stax player in legacy around here for 3 or more years. Where in Manila do you actually play?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by f|i[p]

Ahh..Im not sure where in manila you play legacy, but we haven't had a real tournament on legacy here in manila, for such a looooooooong looooong time...

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NG Galleria have been holding legacy tournies for at least once a month for the past few months, last one was today (sadly I wasn't able to play), and the last one before that was last July 26, 2008. It be good if you check their site for the schedule. Also, there has been small tournies(about less than 20 participants) popping out everywhere else as preparation for the GP.

I don't think were allowed to post links to external sites so I'll PM you instead.

Anyway, onward with the discussion.

Though, I was not able to join the tourney today I did a couple of playtesting vs Ichorid, and I must say that Nehil is correct with his suggestion. I didn't find the need to play with any form of graveyard hate, Prison/Muse basically locks the entire deck down. Chalice @ 1 and Trini makes sure they won't be able to do anything about it. Though you have to make sure that they won't be able to get up to 3 under Trini, Wispmare could ruin the day.

Last Sunday I entered a 16-man tournament. I sucked big-time, so I won't go into the matches in great detail, it's kind of emberassing :tongue:

Anyway, I've played against three aggro decks among the decks I played against, and must say that Kor Haven was a very nice addition to have. In one game, Kor Haven even won the game: the opponent has 2 goyfs at 5/6 and 2 life (I didn't do any of this, he was very suicidal with 2 thoughtseizes, 3 fetches and a very fanatic bob, he ended up putrifying his own bob). I have 8 life and 5 lands total: 2 Mishra's Factory, 1 Kor Haven and 2 Plains or something like that. 2 Plains and 1 Factory are tapped because I casted a Ghostly Prison. My opponent grips the prison and swings in with 2 goyfs: I used to Kor Haven a Goyf each turn, and he saw I didn't have mana to activate it, thinking he was swinging for the win: ofcourse I chumpblock with a factory and my other factory swings for the win next turn.

So: Kor Haven actually distracts opponents from your factories! :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dragzz

Though, I was not able to join the tourney today I did a couple of playtesting vs Ichorid, and I must say that Nehil is correct with his suggestion. I didn't find the need to play with any form of graveyard hate, Prison/Muse basically locks the entire deck down. Chalice @ 1 and Trini makes sure they won't be able to do anything about it. Though you have to make sure that they won't be able to get up to 3 under Trini, Wispmare could ruin the day.

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I also played against Ichorid. Chalice@1 could be a wrong play. Chalice@0 is alot better: LED, petals, chromies = 12 dead cards they really need. The next Chalice you want to throw on the table depends on their build of Ichorid. The one I played against didn't have alot of viable 1-costed things: the only one was Cabal Therapy, and that doesn't really matter against us: against this build Chalice@2 would have been better.

To the veterans of this deck, Machinus et. al...

Seeing how the original list is completely outdated now, do you guys mind posting your most current most tuned deck lists?

All the recent decklists I can find were ones posted by noobs to a large extent. They seem like good builds so I'm not insulting the builds or anything. But I would love to hear from some of the thread's veterans too.

It's probably useful for you guys too to compare each other's builds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

To the veterans of this deck, Machinus et. al...

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He's banned.

You could try my list: it's a compilation of what most people on this board seem to think about Armageddon Stax:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skeggi

Press the blue thing! Here! ^^^

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That's not a list. Thats a conglomeration of every viable list posted thus far. :tongue:

I was hoping to see some fine tuned and tested actual lists.

Well, it's a list. It's just not a decklist. I suggest you just follow instructions and build something suitable for your meta. Just netdecking won't get you any farther than just picking random numbers from my list anyway. But if you want to netdeck:this list went 4th at a 32 player tournament. Looks pretty solid to me.

I'm not asking to netdeck. I tune all my decks to suit my own meta and personal tastes/playstyle.

I'm just curious to see where the veterans of this thread, the ones who tested and tweaked the hell out of their lists come down on such issues as...

The correct number of Smokestack (3 or 4).

The correct number of Trinisphere (3 or 4).

The correct number of Angels (0 or 2 or 3).

The correct mana configuration.

Moat or no?

Windborn Muse or no?

Cataclysm or Ravages of War or nothing to supplement 4 Armageddon?

These guys played and tested this deck a hell of a lot more than we have, so I think a lot of people here would love to see where they come down on the above questions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

The correct number of Smokestack (3 or 4).
The correct number of Trinisphere (3 or 4).
The correct number of Angels (0 or 2 or 3).
The correct mana configuration.
Moat or no?
Windborn Muse or no?
Cataclysm or Ravages of War or nothing to supplement 4 Armageddon?

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I know I'm not one of the veterans, but I'll give you my opinion on these questions anyway:

Correct number of Smokestacks is 3: there are simply too much other important things to run in your deck to be able to run 4.

I'm currently playing 4 Trinispheres: this is a killer for alot of decks. I ended up in a 3+ mana-curve meta lately, so Trinisphere obviously loses its value: thinking of cutting 1...

About Angels, Moat and Muse: I'm currently running 2 Angels, 0 Moats and 2 Muses. I'm thinking of making this 3 Angels, 1-2 Moats and 0 Muses. For the second Moat I might cut a Magus (making my list 2 Magus, 1 Land).

For the correct mana configuration: see my list. It's too complicated and playstyle/meta-dependant.

I'm currently running 1 Ravages of War in addition to my 4 Geddons. I'm considering a 1-of Cataclysm (for the slot of the fourth Trinisphere).

Thank you for answering the questions. :)

I would love to hear how you like the Muses. You say you are cutting them. Is that because they weren't good enough, or is it because you think they would get too redundant with Moats and you just need to make room for other cards.

I want to hear about how good they were for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skeggi

I also played against Ichorid. Chalice@1 could be a wrong play. Chalice@0 is alot better: LED, petals, chromies = 12 dead cards they really need. The next Chalice you want to throw on the table depends on their build of Ichorid. The one I played against didn't have alot of viable 1-costed things: the only one was Cabal Therapy, and that doesn't really matter against us: against this build Chalice@2 would have been better.

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You could be right, but in the matches I had, I already had Ghostly Prison/Muse in play before I played the Chalice, so I wasn't really thinking along the lines of stopping their mana sources, I was more concerned with my opponent being able to Chain of Vapor my lock pieces then swinging for lethal damage.

And besides, does Ichorid run all 12? Don't they just have 4 LEDs?

I placed them in because I have Trygon Predator trauma. Often I have really wished I drew my Muse when I didn't, but when I think of it, drawing a Moat would have been better: alot of people played with lots of mana, so they could pay the muse, or they played stuff like Putrefy, killing the Muse.

Basically Muse is weak where you expect it to be weak:
1: it's a creature.
2: Prison effect doesn't help if your opponent has 2 mana per goyf.

On the plus side: they stomp your opponent for 2 a turn, while he can't attack you. When I'm taking out my Muses, they'll move to the SB for sure.

On another note: against a deck like Dragon Stompy for instance a Moat is still very useful: to let the Rakdos Pit Dragon fly they need RR, so basically it's still a Prison, except the Gathan Raiders can't attack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dragzz

You could be right, but in the matches I had, I already had Ghostly Prison/Muse in play before I played the Chalice, so I wasn't really thinking along the lines of stopping their mana sources, I was more concerned with my opponent being able to Chain of Vapor my lock pieces then swinging for lethal damage.

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Lucky you. In the matches I had, he went of turn 0 and turn 2...leaves very little room for error :)

I guess I was exceptionally lucky, being able to play the prisons before they went off.

Anyway I was talking with f|i[p] the other day and he mentioned having problems with Landstill and Rock matches, I haven't had the opportunity to go head to head with a Rock deck but it really does seem problematic. Landstill, I was able to play with, but I really did not have that much problem with them, but people seems to agree that its a problematic match up so I'm guessing I just wasn't going against a very competent pilot.

Which brings me to my question: What matches have you been having trouble with? What are your solutions do you have for them?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dragzz

And besides, does Ichorid run all 12? Don't they just have 4 LEDs?

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I guess most just run 4 LEDs. The guy I played against played the whole thing: He played what I like to call 'almost-manaless Ichorid'. However, if your opponent plays only 4 LEDs it's still worth it to go Chalice@0: LED is what makes Ichorid. The deck should be called LED combo instead (often they don't need Ichorid and the Narcomoeba's are enough): LED dumps their hand; which they want in their graveyard, AND gives mana, so they can perform some Deep Anal. LED is totally broken in this deck, and needs to be stopped.

In the aforementioned tournament I had to play against 2 (lucky me!) rockish kind of decks. They suck because of various reasons:

1: Alof of their stuff (mostly their removal) isn't affected by Chalice or Trinisphere.
2: Pernicious Deed
3: 1 played besides Pernicious Deed three sided-in Engineered Explosives, he played 3-color rock (third color was blue, don't ask me why but it kicked my behind): Engineered Explosives for 3 = bye-bye Crucible, Prison, Trinisphere, sided-in Oblivion Ring, sided-in Aura of Silence...teh suck.
4: Thoughtseize kills your Crucible too. Or your Geddon. Depends on their mood.
5: Some play Garruk...apparently he's good: he provides 2 extra mana/turn or he poops a 3/3 stomper. Ouch.

Basically because of these nasty Rock decks I'm considering Moats and Academy Ruins, although the latter is probably too slow to avert disaster. The Rock is all about killing board. We're all about boardcontrol. With the Rock throwing sand in the engine all the time this might be the worst match-up ever. They are more vulnerable to enchantments than creatures or artifacts, so Oblivion Rings might save you here, also why I want to run Moat over Windborn Muse.

Clark Kant,

Honestly, your posts (intended or not) are extremely condescending. If you want a list from a specific person, pm them. The board is for discussion. The answers to many of your questions are contained in the 33 pages of prior discussion (not to mention the Angel Stax thread that morphed and Machinus updated to the current thread). You can read and search through specific discussions at your leisure.

I don't know if I'm qualified enough for your standard, but here is what I would take to a large tournament with a general meta...

Lands
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Mishra's Factory
8 Plains

Creatures
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

Sorceries
3 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War

Enchantments
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Oblivion Ring

Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack
2 'Game-Time' Decision

Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
12 'Game-Time' Decision

Other Answers...

Smokestacks - Correct Number - 3. It's not that 4 is wrong, but I've found through testing that the 4th winds up being played reactively too often (if that makes sense). I tend to want my games to play out with me being the aggressor - playing cards that require answers. If I'm in 'catch-up' mode, you really have to evaluate your odds.

Trinisphere - Correct Number - 4. Any less and you lose the 'consistency' of a turn 1 back-breaker. That's not to say it can't or doesn't get sided out. Personally, I think Trinisphere is much less effective against the field than it was during the initial development of this deck.

Exalted Angels - Correct Number - 0. Again, this is shaded by my own testing. This deck does not need to play anymore than 1-2 distinct win conditions. First turn morph, second turn unmorph attack, while very fun and cool does not lead to the number of wins that turn 1 Chalice for 1 or turn 1 Trinisphere do. Angels are unnecessary to winning consistently with this deck.

Mana Configuration - Correct - See Above. I think there are two 'open' mana slots for personal preference. You can cut 1 Factory and 1 Plains and tweak to your desire. Land configuration less than 24 is wrong (I really believe this) and anything that doesn't produce a mana (Maze of Ith or Tabernacle) is either #25 or must take a spell slot. I've seen a lot of people try 23 with the 4th City (or Crystal Vein) and it doesn't work out - it's simply not consistent enough. You win because you recover from Armageddon faster than your opponents with or without Crucible.

Moat - Correct - 0. This is an easy inclusion in the 'game-time decision' slots, though. Moat is auto-win in an unprepared meta, but it is wholly unneccesary to consistent wins.

Windborn Muse - Correct - 0. Again, in aggro heavy metas, this can make it in as 'game-time decision' or into the sideboard. She gets hit with most of the commonly played removal and isn't an effective blocker. Again, she is not needed to win consistently.

Cataclysm - Correct - 0. If you play this card, you are not playing Armageddon Stax. Cataclysm requires a very different set of rules. A typical Stax board when playing Armageddon is 1 Creature (Magus), 1+ Enchantments (Prison), 3+ Artifacts (Diamond, Trinisphere/Chalice, Crucible). If I Cataclysm from this position, I am probably hurting myself at least as much as my opponent. I understand that Ravages is expensive, but Cataclysm is not an equivalent - it is entirely different.

Armageddon Effects - Correct - 5. I believe this to be true, in general. A case can be made for 4-6 depending on expected meta. Armageddon IS the best card in this deck. Armageddon creates more virtual card advantage than most people intuitively see.

I think karmic justices is golden against any deck packing Deed and EE, Considering they don't K.grip it first...

I think landstill and versions of rock are the most problematic match,ups for stax. Thus saying, If its a 3 color version, their land configurations must be a little shaky, and if theres a way to take advantage of it, we should.


Also.. I have tried this creature configuration,(only getting to test against goblins)

2 Exalted angels
3 Magus ( putting 1 magus to the side board )
2 windborn muse...

The muses didn't really help much, I usually wanted magus or ghostly prison rather than muse, the only thing I used windborn muse for was to bait a gempalm, to get to put my angel down.Honestly speaking, Windborn muses doesnt do anything much to help, They easily get killed having 3 toughness. I don't think they belong in the sideboard even.