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Being a pure combo deck, there has to be one accepted final build.
The build that is the fastest and most consistent.
Seeing as how the original deck posted in almost 18 months old, I would love to see the current accepted final build posted here by a veteran who has tested this deck a good bit and hopefully won tourneys with it recently.
Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zelyon
Wow, quite a few demands and assumptions. Lets see...
#1 - There does not have to be one accepted build. No deck should have one accepted final build - every meta is different and changes should be made accordingly.
#2 - There are multiple lists only a few months old if you look on the most recent pages. Take a few seconds and you'll find them. Herbig's list from the Dual Land Draft or Deep6er's from Dual for Duels are probably your best bets.
#3 - The most important part of this deck isn't having the most recent list, it's testing the hell out of it. A few cards wont make as much of a difference as your skill with the deck will.
Good Luck
I have been playing this deck for a while now and have practiced for months before i ever tried to play it in a tournament. The problem i have been facing is, What do i side out for disrupts? Every time i have played this deck i have not sideboarded. I know that sideboarding would have helped me against Deadguy Ale in the last tournament i played but, I never want to take anything out of the main-deck.
Can anyone help me with sideboarding?
Sideboarding is pretty tough with this deck, and I'm not sure that my stategy is correct, but I'll go ahead and throw it out there anyways (I want to get my post count up anyways :-) ).
Against Deadguy Ale
On the play:
-2 Peek -1 Flash of Insight -1 Force of Will
+4 Disrupt
On the draw:
-2 Peek -1 Opt -1 Flash of Insight
+4 Disrupt
I've been taking out one Force of Will on the play because hopefully I will have turn 1 Disrupt, turn 2 Disrupt or Remand, and I probably won't need more than one Force of Will throughout the entire game. Plus if it is necessary, having the Force in the sideboard (to grab via Cunning Wish) is sometimes nice against turn 3 Hymn/Vindicate/Sinkhole, especially when you have the turn 4 win. I leave all the Forces in on the draw though because I don't want Dark Ritual -> Hymn or Hypnotic Specter to happen. I would love to hear how Herbig, Ewokslayer, and Deep6er sideboard for this matchup.
-Jim
I don't really have a definate sideboard plan, but normally for Deadguy I would take out Remands for Disrupts, since they do essentially the same thing, with Disrupt being a turn faster. They are mostly about gaining tempo, but having too many can lead you to fizzle. Flash is also a card I often side out in a fast match like Deadguy. Also, nearly every game two I side in Chain of Vapor in anticipation of any random permanent they may have that will hinder you. That brings your bounce spell count from 3 to 4, which can often be the difference. Against Grow, this also gets around the double Mages naming Wish and Brain Freeze, which actually did happen to me once...
I haven't settled on a board plan against Deadguy mostly because I seem to keep boarding wrong against it and losing.
I am very good at drawing Disrupt and Remand in the wrong order in the matchup.
Right now I am trying
-1 Brain Freeze
-1 Cunning Wish
-1 Meditate
-1 Flash of Insight
for
+3 Disrupt
+1 Twincast
I really like Twincast in the matchup. That might be a hold over from the pre-Remand days when I would use Twincast to hymn and sinkhole my opponent to victory.
I am going to test removing Remand for the Disrupts and see what happens as I was doing better against Deadguy and similar decks before Remand was printed.
vs Deadguy i usually go:
-2 Peek
-2 Opt
-1 Cunning wish
+4 Disrupt
+1 Snap
Peek isn't much more than "U:draw a card" and so is perfectly substituted by disrupt. Opt is the other less exciting draw spell of the deck.
Snap is used to slow their clock down, bounce a Specter and isn't dead when going off.
I don't side out Flash of Insight because is a good card to get discarded. Sometimes a Hymn, a Virdict or a Specter will touch me and this a good discard target for me.
Perhaps if you are really lucky your opponent will Duress Flash of Insight out of your hand. Krieger pulled off this feat against me when I was playing Sui against him.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
I have tried something similar to this board plan and I believe it is flawed. Disrupt for one isn't as effective at finding cards as Opt.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
By removing the other one mana cantrips you are slowing down the deck's velocity which is very important in this matchup to find land to replace those destroyed by Deadguy.
Additionally, by limiting the one mana cantrips to just Disrupt and Brainstorm you create too many situations where you will be forced to throw Disrupt out just to draw a card and keep searching through your deck.
I find boarding out cards that just sit in your hand waiting to be stripped by Deadguy for Disrupt to be a much better plan.
I have also tried boarding in Snap. It suffers from the fact that it only deals with 1/3 of the bad things they can do to you. And it doesn't draw a card.
I agree with Ewokslayer. Boarding out your cantrips lessens your ability to optimize your hand and cycle to lands. Plus, while Disrupt isn't exactly dead in that it cycles for two, this can be a huge disadvantage when trying to combo early and under the pressure that Deadguy has.
I side out Force of Will, since I find it to be Hymn to Tourach 5-8 for my opponent against Deadguy and severely impairs the ability to go off when you're functioning off of maybe a Reset and a Meditate.
Jack could be right, but I like having a answer to a first turn Hyppie on the draw. Perhaps that is a board plan best suited for being on the play?
I too agree on the subject of keeping your 1cc draw spells in the deck when boarding - but I don't think boarding Meditate is correct. I've found that one of the best ways to beat Discard decks (such as deadguy) is to play Meditate as a setup spell. Often drawing 4 is worth giving them an extra turn. This play shouldn't always be made, but I've found it to be a worthwhile strategy in certain situations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewokslayer
I also favor Repulse/Repeal over Disrupt, since the real threat to the deck is the clock, and both are much stronger against Threshold. And having answers to say, Sphere of Resistence is nice.
My sideboardplan against Deadguy is:
-2 peek(doesn't help you at all in this matchup)
-1 flash of insight (the probability that they will discard it for you is not very high)
-1 force of will (you lose another card if you use it)
-1 turnabout(against deadguy you won't have that many lands when you try to go of. So with 3 lands in play and 1 high tide played this gains you exactly 2 mana more for a handcard. I think that is not enough.)
+4 disrupt
+1 twincast
Thank you everyone for all the suggestions, they are all great and i will test out what i find is optimum.
I was olny using the Deadguy Ale as an example. The trouble is sideboarding in general. I have used your advice in last nights tournament and found that i almost always sided out Force of wills or 2 peeks, 1 FoW and 1 Flash of Insight for 4 disrupts or 4 hydroblasts.
Again thank you for the help
What would you people say the optimal sideboard against Threshold is...?? I think I have a general idea but some input from deep6er or herbig would be sweet..
I honestly haven't had the time to play much Legacy this summer since I've been getting into Vintage, so I couldn't really tell you exactly. My last major Legacy tournament was the Dual Land Draft, where siding in Brainfreezes definately helped against Threshold, but I really like IBA's suggestion of Repeal a few posts back, as well as his reasoning behind it. I'm going to be playing two tournaments this weekend with Repeal and I'll post how that works out. I'm also considering dropping the maindeck Brainfreezes to just one, with 2 or 3 in the board since the more I play the deck the rarer it is that I don't get the option of playing everything in my library anyways, Threshold excluded. I'd like to know what people think of that as well.
I went 3-2 last weekend at Altered running 4x Repeals in the board instead of Disrupts. I wasn't very pleased with them. I beat Deadguy round 1 without Disrupts but wished I had them to side in. Second round losing to suicide black was what really convinced me that Disrupts should have been with me. I never got to play against Gro where they might have come in handy. I think for now I'm going to be sticking with about the same deck I've been running, which I'll be playing at Gencon.
This thread has been pretty stagnant for awhile, how does everyone feel about the more or less standard build of Deep6er's, and how are you deviating from his list?
I tested the divert plan a lot (testing gauntlet was IGGy, Goblins, UGW Gro, UGR Gro, Deadguy, Loam Confinament, Solidarity, Zoo, Belcher, Rift, Aluren) and is great vs Deadguy, but sucks against everything but it.Quote:
Originally Posted by herbig
My choices (differences from Deep6er Richmond D4D):
No changes maindeck. Sometimes i run -2 peek +2 opt if i feel there will be less Gro in the tournament.
SB changes:
-1 Evacuation (no angel stompy in my meta)
-1 Twincast
-1 Hydroblast (with all the goblins hate running around the deck is losing presence in my metagame)
+1 Echoing Truth/Repeal (i needed another bouncer, used to take Truth, now testing Repeal and NOT loving it much)
+2 Snap
Snap is a must. I found it useful in really many matchups:
Goblin: They side out incinerators to bring in hate. I find it better than turnabout because it can buy you time before the 4th or 5th turn (5th turn if they have an active Port) and so before being at -2 life. It's tempo advantage against Lackey on the play and you can play draw spells in the same turn you play it (unlike turnabout). Watch out for SGC!
UGW gro: They side out Swords to bring in hate (or a blue card, Bardo docet). You can get rid of a meddling mage and combo in the same turn! It buys you an extra turn bouncing a werebear (like turnabout but not easily dazeable and they have to play again the threat, tapping some of their sources) when comboing off is not a dead card as it generates some mana (unless the opponent has only mongeese in the board).
UGR gro: Don't side Snaps in. They'll have 4 legal targets in the entire deck (werebears), and you don't need to get rid of Meddling Mages.
DeadGuy: Bouncering a pumped Shade or a hippie is great tempo advantage (as they have to replay the threat unless they tapped out to pump shade and have a slow clock). In this matchup Snap is better than turnabout because gets active before, consumes their tempo, doen's rely on having 4 mana and you can play a draw spell the same turn you play it.
Vs Random Aggro: i side it in vs heavy equipment decks like Faerie Stompy (God bless Eldariel for creating that deck, it can really unbalance the format). you can gain time bouncing equipped creatures or Sea Drakes (this gains a LOT of tempo). Don't side it in vs decks running burn.
The matchups where i found Snap useful appeared to be some of the difficult matchups.
Have you (Herbig and Deep6er) tested a couple (not more) Snaps in your SB?