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In my Zoo deck. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by EaD
I hate playing cards that are good only with my opponents' actions. I can put Instant and Land in grave by myself. I run Stonecloacker and Grunt. So explain please why and in wich slot should I run it and wich games will it improve.
Goyf is good even if you can pump him just to a 3/4 by yourself.
Your opponent exist as well and will play spells which will increase goyfs power definitely.
Goyf is a big wall which can go aggro mode and is so much better midgame then grunt and answers opposing goyfs the same.
And I would guess goyf will increase random aggro mus.
Actually I played DnT myself long looooong time ago and tried splashing green for goyf, which worked quite good with cataclysm.
Even if your take on dnt is different (and im still not very fond of living wish)
i can't believe that goyf is worse then grunt or whatever you would cut for him.
He is the best creature for a reason.
Also:
Moschesch posmatret so russkami kartami dla mina?
V germanije tuta netu takowa, i jap hatel imet russki canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh. :P
eq.firemind,
btw, who are you?:smile: i haven't seen D&T in Moscow since december '07
Quote:
Originally Posted by eq.firemind
If you really want to fix your draw, I would really suggest staying in mono white and going for the Enlightened Tutor build. It helps protect against color hosing, and the artifact/enchantment engines help out against many of the matchups, while keeping the board open for your bad matchups.
Although I wouldn't suggest it if your playfield consists of a lot of aggro based decks.
I'm lazy to search a huge thread for what I call the core of the deck and we are in M10 reality now, so I'll try to exctract the core from DnT by myself. IMHO it's the best way to find out the weaknesses of the deck and how to solve them and to improve deck's overall competitivness.
I'll be very glad if someone more expirienced with the deck will do that too or correct me if I'm wrong somewhere.
Here it my take on it:
LANDS (22) - We don't want to miss our landdrops, right?
9 Plains - No need to comment
3 Karakas - Post-M10 we really need it only when we can play Mangara, so I feel no need to run 4 now(Karakas+Isamaru is deemed alot). But we don't run any cantrips/seach, so 2 is too low.
4 Wasteland - I think this is a must play in each incarnation of DnT.
3 Utility Land Slots - I prefer Ports here. Some people play Mishra's Factory.
3 Nice Lands Slots - Theese slots are for your personal build/metagame. Say, if you run Cataclysm in SB, put some Flagstones here. Or if you feel enough -producers, you can add 4-th Port or Mishra's Factory. Or just more Plains for stability.
1-COST(10)
4 Aether Vial - Surprised?
4 Swords to Plowshares - No need to comment
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Doggy still eats Lackey, still fogs Goyf (with Karakas/Cloaker/VialWisp), still a nice early beater and still can carry Jitte (for win sometimes). I tried to run without dog and it was a fail.
2-COST(12)
3 Ethersworn Canonist - Some people call her just a filler, but I like her very much 'cause she is a) great against Storm b) descent against tempo-oriented decks
2 Jotun Grunt - He is big. He costs 2 mana. He beats Tarmogoyf and GY-dependent decks. He is still useless sometimes, so 3 is maximum number in MD.
3 Serra Avenger - No need to comment
2 Creature Slots - I reserved theese slots for any combination of 2-costed creatures that fits your metagame best. They can be, say, 3-d Grunt, 4-th Avenger, MD Silver Knight, 4-th Canonist - there are a lot of options, but I'm sure it must be creatures.
2 Umezawa's Jitte - Too good not to run. 2 is bare minimum.
3-COST (11)
3 Mangara of Corondor - The deck's heart.
3 Flickerwisp - one of the best cards in the deck. The longer I play DnT, the more I like it. 3 is minimum.
2 Stonecloaker - M10 nerfed him a little, but we still need Mangara trick, pinpoint removal protection, GY hate and evasive 3/2 for 3 mana is a descent beater.
3 Oblivion Ring - Our all-problems-answer. IMHO less than 3 MD is a crime. Flickewisp trick is a nice bonus.
TOTAL: 55 cards
5 Free Slots - Here's the space for development and improvement.
What do we need from theese slots?
My opinion:
1) The deck is a little slow, so theese slots must be 1- or 2-costed cards.
2) If we add a color, the splash must be very small and we must be able to play without off-color cards.
3) The cards must:
a. Solve problematic cards/matchups (like Deed, Landstil, Storm combo) while being generally usefull against wide arrange of opponents and/or compliment existing strategys of the deck.
or
b. Give a huge boost to our general gameplan so the deck became overall more consistent and competitive.
Now SIDEBOARD:
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender - she was descent berfore M10, and she is even better now.
1 Ethersworn Canonist - you need 4 of theese between your 75 cards to have chances against Combo
3 Orim's Chant - You need more combo-hate.
1 Jotun Grunt - I belive you should have at least 3 of theese between your 75 cards just because he beats Tarmogoyf.
TOTAL: 8 cards
7 Free Slots.
Some pretendents:
Orim's Chant No.4 - If you don't splash, you need 4th one IMHO.
Samurai of the Pale Curtain - great against Ichorid, Affinity, nice against Loam, StaX, every deck that relies heavy on GY recursion.
Cataclysm - good against decks that rely on a single card type, like Enchantress or 43 Lands
Umezawa's Jitte No.3 - if you run 2 main.
All my lists (with or without splashes) are based on this core.
I used, use and will use this approach in all experements with all decks and I recommend it to everyone.
Now an example of how I judged a single card's inclusion:
Noble Hierarch.
Point 1) - check,
Point 2) - check,
Point 3) - explanation: With 8 1-turn accelerators we have consistently fast opening and consistently smooth play (the thing I always wanted), Exalted rocks (was a surprise when manadudes managed to deal 3-5 damage in some games while giving me mana every turn), manabase is more shaky with splash but less shaky with Hierarch, makes our best card (Vial) even better.
Point 3) b. - check.
So I included the card in maindeck and reworked my manabase to fit green.
After that I tested the deck and my new inclusion prooves itself to be worthwhile and I enjoyed (very important part for me) to play this card in this deck.
Here's the version I have been running down here in Montreal with much success:
Lands (22) :
3 Karakas
1 Eijango Castle
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Flagstones of Trokair
11 Plains
Even without the green splash yet ( i eventually want to fit krosan grip, goyf and pridemage into the deck), the horizon canopies have been great at allowing me to get WW for when i have to cast runed halo or samurais of the pale curtain as well as allowing me to draw later in the game when i tend to run out of fuel.
Creatures (18):
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Stonecloaker
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
The key here is that I always end up siding out about 1 cloaker and 1 mangara vs most decks. Unless they have no direct answer to mangara.
Spells (17)
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Cataclysm
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Mask of Memory
Mask of memories does wonders if it sticks, providing card draw to a deck which would otherwise have none. as for the rest , it's self-explanatory. I currently have path over swords since I really really hate it when i am in a race and have to give my opp. life.
.Side (15)
3 Mana Tithe (good vs combo or an early threat , like goyf or a standstill,etc.
3 Ethersworn Canonist (encore vs combo)
1 Jotun Grun (vs. threshold)
3 Kami of the Ancient law (vs. standstill , counterbalance)
3 Runed Halo (vs nimble mongoose or any huge threat)
2 Abolish (vs counterbalance, shackles,etc).
Obviously adding green makes abolish useless, allows me to replace kamis with pridemages and possible 3 smaurais with 3 goys. Overall, in theory the deck woudl become more aggressive and perhaps better.
As it stands, it is quite a decent deck , but i find at times it lacks any kind of power in the late game to stand up to a random goyf + shackles (that usually owns me pretty bad).
Any suggestions for adding in the green splash or improving the current decklist. The main matchup that I lose to is burn as it kills any random dude I can play if need be or just burns me to the face, By the time I can get a jitte online, I am almost always dead.
I wonder why Abolish is even a candidate since we run so few basic plains. People who play Force of Will says that you need atleast 16 blue cards to support it, and I don´t see DaT running 16 plains anytime soon...
Harder to counter with counter-top if it needs to be hard-cast and the alt cost is pretty doable, since past a certain # of lands in play, drawing more lands becomes redundant and bad (unless you are recovering from cataclysm, whihc should not have hurt as much in the first place).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceridan
@ whitescorpion:
Don't know your meta, but Cataclysm is bad against (most popular archtype -) blue-based (aggro)-control. Well, the card breaks Landstill, but a) they may have Crucible b) it's hard to resolve it against 'Still. 'Clysm was discussed somewhere in the thread, you should read it.
Abolish is great in Weathered Wayfarer build.
Mana Tithe is not enough against Storm. Run Orim's Chant in that slot.
And finaly, I don't like Tarmogoyf here.
Yes, you read correct.
Tarmo is great if you can feel the graveyard by yourself. And Jotun Grunt is a fantastic card 'cause he is not only big and cheap, but he kills Tarmo, Terravore (and Loam decks in general) and hurts so many other decks. For many many decks in format Jotun Grunt is not just a beater, but also a disruption that breaks their gameplan. Last reason is that I don't want my beaters to be off-color. And I don't think we need more beaters between Serra Avenger and Jotun Grunt.
Here's my latest list with green:
LANDS (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy - Nice card becomes great when used on full power (produces green)!
1 Forest
6 Plains
3 Savannah
2 Karakas
1-DROPS (15)
4 Noble Hierarch - Continues being awesome
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda - I believe we need some early beats. Exalted dog bites hard!
2-DROPS (13)
3 Serra Avenger - After more playtests I returned to Avenger. Exalted and Jitte rocks with evasive creatures!
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Living Wish - Continues being awesome
2 Utility/Metagame Creature Slots - See below
3-DROPS (10)
3 Flickerwisp
2 Stonecloaker
2 Mangara of Corondor
3 Oblivion Ring
SIDEBOARD
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - Any kind of swarms
1 Harmonic Sliver - 'Wisp and 'Cloaker's best friend.
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender - descent against red-heavy decks and nice vs Dredge.
1 Children of Korlis - Was third Forge-Tender, but I needed something to stay in wishboard for Combo MU. Also nice against Dredge and Burn.
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Karakas
3 Orim's Chant
1 Gaddock Teeg - 'Still, StaX and Combo
1 Krosan Grip - was Oblivion Ring in mono-:w:, but I mostly sided it in to kill some art/ench, so Grip looks more useful as a SB option.
1 Samurai of the Pale Curtain - not popular Wish target, I think about replacing him with Aven Mindcensor to answer Survival and Natural Order.
1 Beefy Creature Slot - currently Epochrasite, but I'll try Figure of Destiny here 'cause I have more mana (thanks, Hierarch) and I need something Wishable for Vial with 1 counter.
Horizon Canpopy: how did I missed this card?? It's so great, especially for :w::g: build! I started with one and soon replaced 4th Savannah with another. If your meta is low on Burn/Zoo/Sligh, you can try even 3 copies. The
Major change is that I cut Rishadan Ports. logic was the same to some RbGoblin players start cutting ports and adding Bannerets: With Hierarch the deck recieves the significant speed bump, so I don't feel the need to stall the game anymore and I have better things to do with that 3 mana.
Manabase becomes really stabe now and Fetchlands + Canopies provide some food for Grunt making him more consistent beater.
Now the most interesting part: that 2 free slots (were Ethersworn Canonists).
With the addition of green I have 2 more great candidates in this slot: Pridemage and Teeg. Portless manabase can consistently support :g::w: cost.
Teeg: proactive answer for some bad cards, Answers combo. (Bonus: protected with Karakas).
Pridemage: reactive answer for many stuff, Exalted rocks
Pridemage feels like more useful card in general than Teeg, but here comes main dilemma:
With MD Teegs we have slightly better game against Combo, but 2 Teegs and 3 Wishes are still not enough to make game 1 close to 50/50, so we still need to win game 2 and 3.
But if we don't run MD Teeg, we need to many SB space for just 1 MU. So I don't know...
As far as I am concerned, the number one issue of this deck is not a revamp of what works well. It needs a 1-drop threat so that using Wasteland with a handful of 3-drops isn't so hard a decision.
@Firemind, this deck has a certain modicum of issues regarding consistency. It is not a giant issue (since it is mostly creatures, and they overlap in function a great deal). But it is there. When you start to drop the 3's to 2's and the 4's to 3's, you are diluting that consistency. The deck has no draw or search. I see your Living Wish, but it has no business in a deck that wants to be fast.
You have solved the 1-drop issue but created a host of different ones in the process. In all honesty your input is a bit distracting. I mean this as friendly as it can be. I suggest that what you have is a different deck that is control oriented. You are certainly not the first person to look to green as a second color. But you seem to be putting a lot of work into it. Perhaps you should create a new thread.
If you really need a 1-drop why don't you play anymore MoR or Weathered Wayfarer? They both look very good.
I think we search for a fat cc1 right? Wayfarer and Mother are not quite big. Against control, i would run Elvish Hexhunter over them. And he is just 1/1 and this is not enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maveric78f
The deck needs a Wild Nacatl or Nimble Mongoose in White. 3/3 is just normal for a cc1 now.... Even Dog is weak, compared to other decks.
Please proof-read what you wrote, think about it a minute and edit your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by scarlet_moon
Wayfarer is just bad in a cataclysm-build. Hexhunter not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maëlig
Well, my bad not explaining how I decide to run theese strange cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Here it is, all from the beginning:
I started to search for another 1-drop after I realized that the deck is not so good if have no active Vial (as far as I know, you started the search from this point too). I wanted this card to be as useful on turn 4-5 as on turn 1. I wanted this card to be useful in as much games as possible, that's why I dismissed Elvish Hexhunter, Weathered Wayfarer and Mother of Runes and many other nice cards - they are dead too often to be descent. After I failed to find an answer in :w:, I start thinking out possible splashes. When I looked at Goblins and thought:"Hey, why Lackey is so cool? Main thing: he gives early mana to a manahungry deck". But our curve is lower compared to Goblins, I felt the need in just 1 more mana, I felt that I just a little late to win, only one small step...
So I tried Birds of Paradise. They sucked hard as they should 'cause they don't to any damage and can't carry Jitte for win without help.
After Conflux release I noticed that little Exalted BoP and decided to give them one more chance.
Turn 3 Mangara lock or turn 2 Flickerwisp their EE or Chalice was good (as with Birds), but not enough. Suddenly I started noticing a strange 2-4 damage bonus (ie 1 turn faster clock) out of nowhere.
Imagine how shocked was I when I understood Hierarch's true wording: add 1 mana and ping opponent! In fact, Hierarch enabled a possibility of very fast and very agressive play. This sounds very very strange, but I felt like I started playing something very similar to Goblin Lackey. After more testing I found that Hierarch also solves the main problem with splashing a color: more shaky manabase. And she also makes the best card in the deck (Vial) even better and can carry Jitte to win all alone! So 4 maindeck Noble Hierarch was no question for me anymore.
After that I started to experiment with new available nice creatures, made some mistakes (like not running 3 Serra Avenger), fixed them, played more, more, more... And in more and more games I started having a little more mana than I can use at this state of the game(very strange feeling for DnT, right?). First of all I tried some 4-costed dudes (like Loxodon Hierarch) and throw them away. Then I tried more 3-cc dudes, but, as you said, cutting something always was a hard desicion and all attempts didn't led to any noticable improvement.
By that time I realised that the lack of CA was never a big problem for me 'cause I can recieve some real CA with Wisp and Mangara tricks, some virtual CA by making their Tarmo and Vore small or break Dredge plan with Grunt or fast Stonecloacker, sometimes just land (Exalted) wheenees, shoot their dudes with Swords/O-Ring and bash for the win. As I said above, the deck didn't lost speed. According to my feelings, it gained something than it hadn't before: explosiveness.
So straight CA was not the thing I needed the most (don't get me wrong, I don't say CA is bad :tongue:). My problem was, as before, the need of JUST THAT CARD to bring the game in the point of no return, ie Dig/Search Effect. Then I started looking at another very good deck in our format: Threshold and their Brainstorm/Top + Fetches dig/search engine. Hmm... Brainstorm... What is Brainstorm? The card smoothes their starting if casted on 1-st turn. Do I need this? I run more business spells and more lands, so no, with 4 Vial and 4 Hierarch my starting hands are great. But what happens after turn 1-2? They start to search business with cantrip/Top + Shuffle. Just what I need! SO a) I need search b) I don't need it on turn 1, but at the same time it better cost no more than 2 mana 'cause with T1 Hierarch I want to use my Wasteland on turn 2 1 c) It must not be card disadvantage (that's why I dropped E-Tutor). That's how I came to Living Wish. I tested a huge number of sideboards, and figured out the next nice things:
0) It does what I want it to do: now I have a good use for my mana and I can find right card. 5 MD Jotun Grunts, 5 MD Canonists/Teegs, 5 missing pieces for Mangara lock...
1) I can cut 1 Karakas 'cause under M10 it loses some of its power.
2) I had some situations where I didn't had the right creature for Vial (sometimes wrong costs, sometimes it was Pridemage against opposing Tarmo), but Wish solves that.
3) I can just Wish for Karakas and make a critical 3rd landdrop.
4) Some hidden unexpected bombs, like Tabernacle or Harmonic Sliver (yes, he's a bomb with our 'Wisps and 'Cloakers)
That's how I started running Living Wish.
Fuf, I did it :smile:
Sorry for somanyletters and probably bad English, I hope this explaines much.
I thought about it, but the deck plays like DnT, uses the same tricks as DnT and have at least 43 (just counted, not including manabase) same cards as DnT, only a maximum of 9 cards with green (4 Hierarch, 3 Wish, and that 2 2-costed dudes) so why is it another deck? I believe people will just point me on DnT thread if I create the new one. And how i suppose to call it? Green and Taxes? DnT Green? Texas Ranger?? Deadly Taxing White Rasta Dude???Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
No, I belive my deck is still Death and Taxes and, if you don't mind, I'll post my thoughts here.
Why doesn't anyone play Epochrasite? He seems really solid with Vial and good with Cataclysm. I'm trying to help my friend improve his D&T deck, and I feel as if this dude would work quite awesomely as a 2 or 3-of
Because Epochrasite is just a beater, but he's not really that great of one. Part of DnT's strength is in all the hate/tricks that it lets you do, but all that epochrasite really does is "trick" into play bigger. Since he's pretty situational as well he tries to fill a role that DnT doesn't necessarily need. What would you consider cutting for him?
I play it as a Wish target now and I played it in Enlightened Tutor build. The problem is that he is not that good without other cards.
If I have Vial online and 2 counters on it, I'm quite happy with Avenger or Grunt.
I can't remember last time Flickerwisp's ability had no usefull target (something like turn 1 land, Hierarch, turn 2 Wasteland, Flickerwisp, untap Wasteland, get a nice tempo boost - why spend a turn to get Epoch online when I can put pressure right now).
Swords to Plowshares will stay forever in Legacy.
But if you have some kind of tutor to find Epochrasite when you can use it on full power (I mean 4/4 NOW, not after they kill it and you wait 3 turns), the card is quite descent.
Flickerwisp lacks flash. You have to wait for turn 4 to hit an activated wasteland.
What a nice, meticulous analysis. Thank you for your insight.Quote:
Originally Posted by scarlet_moon
Once you've come up for a reason to justify your claim please share it with us, it will be a pleasure to show its flaws. I can understand people who think wayfarer is not worth it overall, but saying it sucks against control simply makes no sense.
Oh and FYI, most builds don't pack cataclysm MD anymore.