Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jegger
At my home Petal is necessary if you want to win via draw4 with 6 mana instead of 7. I presume this problem isn't so irrilevant or sneaky if you want a closure that requires less mana than classic IT-> IGG version.
That's exactly what I said. Petal is there for showing up into a Doomsday pile, nothing else. It is ocasionally good as a mana source, but that doesn't happen often.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jegger
Many decks play Trinket Mage and play also 1x Needle maindeck (Dreadstill, Faerie Stompy), so this statement is wrong.
I didn't say they didn't exist. I said they are not a big enough fraction of a generic environment. If they are on your meta, you gotta tune the deck for that, obviously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jegger
Perhaps you can answer to this I wrote above:
You can go to
http://www.deckcheck.net/ and then you can write here how many DDay versions do a T8. Emidln discovers DDay in May, but how many T8 with it?
Anyway, perhaps I wrong and this deck is better of classic version and it simply doesn't fit my most liked play style.
Got nothing to say on this one. Facts are facts, but I still think the Doomsday version is much better. The deck has been getting into top 8s once every month and the last one had Doomsday, so, I don't know. Maybe the deck simply isn't good enough to begin with. Maybe this is how combo that isn't into the "balls to the walls" thing goes in the current metagame, since TES also isn't getting into more than 1 top 8 per month.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jegger
On what assumption you say "DDAY is a definite inclusion" ? We aren't speaking of Brainstorm or Dark Ritual.
I don't understand how DDay solves alone the Mage's problem. Perhaps Helm + Grapeshot solve Mage’s problem, not DDay, like in my deck is Pact or Massacre to solve this problem.
If they don't name Doomsday with Mage, you put Slaughter Pact or Massacre into the pile. If stuff is resolving by then, any of those removal spells will surely get rid of Mage. And there's also the second win condition with Helm and Shot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jegger
In this case DDay is less versatile. You can use IT to search the second Orim or C.Ritual. I compare DDay more to IGG than IT.
It's like IGG in the sense that it's played to end the game, but it's more like IT because you aren't limited to winning with the resources you have, but with any resources your deck can provide and you can afford (also known as tutor).
Man, I hate how lots of quotes make it seem like this post is big.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jegger
You can go to
http://www.deckcheck.net/ and then you can write here how many DDay versions do a T8. Emidln discovers DDay in May, but how many T8 with it?
Anyway, perhaps I wrong and this deck is better of classic version and it simply doesn't fit my most liked play style.
Doomsday might have been discovered in May, but a list wasn't remotely optimized until somewhere around June/July. The deck went 4-2 at the Gencon prelim, losing out because the pilot got his game winning Meditate REBed. I think he would have won via Bargain. Emidln can correct me if I'm wrong. The deck is incredibly difficult to auto-pilot and the guy who went 4-2 commented on DDay's exhaustive properties.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Breathweapon, what are some of these "untap and go" stacks you speak of? I never like to pass the turn.
And the 2 draw4's are 1 meditate and 1 bargain. Bargain seems good so you can go off with BBBBBB, right? There's gotta be a little something I'm missing here.
So what are you guys playing as protection at the moment? All discard to cut white? Hmmm... Sketchy.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
I don't always have blue mana and I definitely don't always want to run out a Meditate against red decks if I can help it. Incidentally, when you play Mystical Tutor, Bargain is also a pretty spiffy tutor target.
Also, you'll pry my Chants from cold dead hands.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rsaunder
Breathweapon, what are some of these "untap and go" stacks you speak of? I never like to pass the turn.
And the 2 draw4's are 1 meditate and 1 bargain. Bargain seems good so you can go off with BBBBBB, right? There's gotta be a little something I'm missing here.
So what are you guys playing as protection at the moment? All discard to cut white? Hmmm... Sketchy.
More or less Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ill Gotten Gains, Tendrils of Agony is close to a win, but you can recur the Doomsday and replace Brainstorm with Meditate to draw into multiple piles with enough mana or just use Empty the Warrens with 2 cards left on top of the deck.
Yeah, I just use discard and Shusher.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
More or less Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ill Gotten Gains, Tendrils of Agony is close to a win, but you can recur the Doomsday and replace Brainstorm with Meditate to draw into multiple piles with enough mana or just use Empty the Warrens with 2 cards left on top of the deck.
Yeah, I just use discard and Shusher.
So you pass the turn after casting DDay.
Tap land for U, cast bstorm drawing drit drit IGG, replacing 2 useless
Tap a land for B, rit
rit
IGG, returning bstorm, rit, rit (B floating)
cast rit (BBB)
cast rit (BBBBB)
Tap yet another land for U, brainstorm drawing 2 cards and tendrils, replacing 2 cards.
Tendril for 8 copies (16 life) w/ B floating.
Yes, it is 16 damage for UUB the turn after, UBBB also works replacing one rit with an LED. How often, though, is 16 damage lethal? I can't think of a way to get much more storm in there. Perhaps against something like sui or in VERY certain circumstances against other decks.
Okay, thinking out the other pile... DDay for meditate, d.rit, d.rit, IGG, tendrils.
(tap for 2U)Cast meditate. draw 2xrit, IGG, tendrils.
(tap for B) Drit, (BBB)
Drit (BBBBB)
IGG (B) discarding tendrils, returning DDay, meditate, D. rit?
D.rit (BBB)
DDay stacking Drit, Drit, tendrils... what else? Don't you just have those 3 cards?
(tap for 2U)Meditate deck death (scoop)
Okay, from the DDay, assuming you had 1 junk card in hand:
stacking Drit, Drit, Polar kraken, tendrils, (nothing)/another junk card if that's an illegal play
(Tap for 2U) meditate drawing drit, drit, tendrils, whatever
(tap for B) drit
drit
tendrils for...20. For 4UUBB. I must be missing something here. If you have this kind of resources available, you must be able to kill on the turn you cast DDay.
Without HOA+double tops the pass-the-turn stack sounds weak.
EDIT: I think the name of the 5c version should involve "Harlequin." That would be enough to make ME play the deck...
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rsaunder
Yes, it is 16 damage for UUB the turn after, UBBB also works replacing one rit with an LED. How often, though, is 16 damage lethal? I can't think of a way to get much more storm in there. Perhaps against something like sui or in VERY certain circumstances against other decks.
If they don't have life as low as that, then you do it as a two hit combo. Ritual,Ritual,Doomsday,Tendrils does the job pretty well and only requires 2B, which is less or equal than any of those piles you mentioned. If Tendrils is a singleton, you'll have to sacrifice 1 storm count for casting Doomsday after Tendrils, else you lose it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rsaunder
(nothing)/another junk card if that's an illegal play
You must pile 5 cards if you have 5 or more cards. Else, you pile as many as you can.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Most of the DDAY Go piles are based on the cards in your hand just as much as the cards in your stack, and while I can't spell out every permutation, if you play with DDAY long enough you'll see it come together.
It's Ponder vs Lotus Petal IMO, and if you cut Lotus Petal for Ponder, there's not much of a reason to use Meditate over Infernal Contract.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
It's Ponder vs Lotus Petal IMO, and if you cut Lotus Petal for Ponder, there's not much of a reason to use Meditate over Infernal Contract.
Not losing half your life and not requiring BBBBBB are fairly convincing arguments for Meditate.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emidln
Not losing half your life and not requiring BBBBBB are fairly convincing arguments for Meditate.
Granted, but considering how tight our lists are getting it's sort of a luxury. What I really meant was Meditate is more difficult to cast than Infernal Contract when you don't have Lotus Petal, IMO, BBB is something this deck has in abundance.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
Granted, but considering how tight our lists are getting it's sort of a luxury. What I really meant was Meditate is more difficult to cast than Infernal Contract when you don't have Lotus Petal, IMO, BBB is something this deck has in abundance.
Meditate is pretty easy to cast on turns 3 and later, but even on turn 2 it's possible to cast it of 2 lands, one adding the initial B for rituals and the other adding the lone U for casting it. I'd say there are more circumstances in which you can't cast Contract than those in which you can't cast Meditate when going off with Doomsday, as it's pretty easy to have 2 Dark Rituals and an Island. As a desperate action, going off based only on a draw4 usually is easier with Meditate for chaining rituals, since you won't need BBBB for that, but it may still lock blue mana away from drawn cantrips.
On a final note, Meditate is superb against Landstill (11 cards in hand for you or less resources for disruption for them) and prison decks (one turn won't make much of a difference).
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
Granted, but considering how tight our lists are getting it's sort of a luxury. What I really meant was Meditate is more difficult to cast than Infernal Contract when you don't have Lotus Petal, IMO, BBB is something this deck has in abundance.
If you don't have LED, I've found that Meditate is easier to cast than Cruel Bargain (although I'm playing 3 less petals and 3 less Cabal Rits). I usually just tap a land for the blue.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Good to see you back Emidlin. I missed you. To bad you didn't go to gencon.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emidln
I don't always have blue mana and I definitely don't always want to run out a Meditate against red decks if I can help it. Incidentally, when you play Mystical Tutor, Bargain is also a pretty spiffy tutor target.
Also, you'll pry my Chants from cold dead hands.
The other thing about chant is that it has the ability to be a time walk for W or WW. With the 5-color version, getting an extra W to pay the kicker's pretty easy. Imho, not running chants is simply a mistake.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rsaunder
The other thing about chant is that it has the ability to be a time walk for W or WW. With the 5-color version, getting an extra W to pay the kicker's pretty easy. Imho, not running chants is simply a mistake.
I don't find Orim's Chant all that great, Force of Will doesn't scare me as much as Counterbalance, and Vexing Shusher more or less PWNs counter walls. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's definitely not mandatory.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
If I could change my list for the online tournament, I would probably play -1 Volcanic Island, -1 Badlands, +1 Island, +1 plains in the main with -1 Rushing River, -2 Ancient Grudge, -1 Pyroclasm, -1 Krosan Grip, +3 Serenity, +1 Ill-Gotten Gains, +1 Infernal Tutor in the sideboard.
Rnd 1 vs Unholy Carwash (2-0)
First off, appologies to my opponent. My girlfriend was kinda pissed off during the match so I might have came off as a bit impolite at the end. I win the die roll.
Game 1 I keep a rather risky hand (against an uknown opponent) of:
Orim's Chant
Brainstorm
Sensei's Divining Top
Sensei's Divining Top
Bayou
Doomsday
Lion's Eye Diamond
I decide to keep because even if I get wasted turn 2, I'll have Top in play and LED + Doomsday in Grip. Had my Bayou been a blue-producing land, I still think I would have decided to lead with Top because if my opponent doesn't lead with Waste, go, Top is far more valuable than Brainstorm, especially against a deck with Dazes. I put my chances that they'd have waste at about 33% and the chance that my opponent has Dazes at a slightly higher 40% (I'm afraid of Blue).
I open Bayou, SDT and my opponent leads Mountain, Fanatic. I'm partially relieved, but know that he either has Wastes or Fireblasts in his deck so my hand needs to see a land in the top 3. I hit the jackpot and see Island, Tundra, Dark Ritual arranging them to draw Island and leave Dark Rit on top. I play Island, Top, pass. My opponent misses his land drop, attacks to put me at 19 and plays Fanatic #2. I untap and win on my turn. Do you see how?
Answer Down Below
Game 2
My girlfriend is hassling me so I forget to sideboard. I kinda luck out here because I open this hand with Krosan Grip:
Korsan Grip
Orim's Chant
Island
Sensei's Divining Top
Dark Ritual
Cabal Ritual
Polluted Delta
My opponent leads Mountain, Chain Lightning, go. I'm actually relieved that he didn't play Fanatic, because Fanatic can severely screw with half-life math needed for Doomsday. I draw a second SDT and lead with Island, Top, go. My opp misses his land drop and passes the turn. I upkeep top into Volcanic Island, Meditate, Mystical Tutor drawing Volcanic Island and putting Mystical Tutor on top. I play Volcanic Island, SDT. My opp drops Mountain, Pyrostatic Pillar. Thankfully, I have my trusty maindeck Krosan Grip. I upkeep top drawing the LED that I see and play Polluted Delta. I could win on my turn 4 if I don't top on my turn 3, but that exposes me to red blasts and Fireblast. I pass and he plays a Lightning Rift to puts me at 13 and him at 14. I end step top seeing Duress and draw my Mystical Tutor. I pass. He untaps and passes. I eot draw Duress with SDT #2, fetch for Bayou + kgrip his pillar dropping me to 10. I untap and decide to top. I see a Chant, Brainstorm, Tendrils of Agony and that makes life much less complicated. I draw Chant then run out Dark Rit and a Duress. He casts Price of Progress in response to drop me to 6 and lets it resolve with Fireblast in hand. He had Pyroblast, Fireblast, and irrelevant cards. I go for Cabal Rit, LED, top into Brainstorm, Brainstorm breaking LED in response to get Tendrils and play Tendrils for lethal.
My opponent playing Price of Progress was definitely in the wrong call here. He really needed to wait to see what I did because my win would have been much more awkward had I seen Pyroblast, Price of Progress and Fireblast with RR open.
The Win for Game 1
Okay, so there are really a couple ways you can win here. I went the IGG route. That is to say, I drew my Dark Rit, used a Top to draw my Tundra, then Top to draw Top, played Dark Ritual, Doomsday for LED, LED, Ponder, IGG, Tendrils and Brainstormed into the win. Another equally valid way to win would be: Dark Rit, Doomsday (finding Meditate, LED, LED, LED, Tendrils), LED, tap top breaking LED for UUU to draw Meditate and play it getting Top, LED, LED, LED. Play Top with the Island, play all 3 LED and break them for black. Use 5 black to generate 5 storm looping Sensei's Tops then play Tendrils for 28 lifeloss. With BBBUUU available and two tops, you can really do a lot of stuff, but the moral is that you should be winning the game here.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Seriously, do you play against Goofy?
G1:
Quote:
...My opponent misses his land drop...
G2:
Quote:
...My opp misses his land drop and passes the turn...
He keep both the hands at 7 with only a land with Burn. He deserves only to lose. Plus like you say, he does the mistake of playing PoP.
I'm waiting for test more serious. Anyway thanks for the match coverage.
I like your last changes for the deck, more basic lands instead of harlequin duals.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
I like actual matches coverage way more than discussions about the deck. Continue doing them!
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
I plan on continuing them. I also don't know that keeping a one land hand with burn is necessarily incorrect. The deck likely plays 17-21 lands, so mulling to 6 looking for 2 lands when your initial hand has something decent (for instance in game 2 when he had Pyroblast, Pyrostatic Pillar, Fireblast, Price of Progress) could be really bad for you (you're not very likely to hit 2 lands, and your hand might very well end up worse than before). Sadly, I cannot pick my opponents or their draws, but I'll continue posting regardless of how they or I do.
Re: [Deck] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emidln
[report]
Shouldn't you wait until the tourney is over to spoil the opponent's decklist, unless he allowed you to?
