Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Cabal ritual is necessary because the spell is very very hard to cast.
I'm thinking who mystical tutor is very very good versus Ad n because he permits to try it in keep phase and draw it.
In italian forum a possible list is this:
/ Lands
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [5E] City of Brass
2 [BOK] Tendo Ice Bridge (or 1 x paradise + 1 x forbidden)
// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
3 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [LRW] Ponder (4 is more for me)
3 Ab Nauseam
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [TSP] Wheel of Fate (in italian metagame is necessary + or -)
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [US] Duress
I'm testing with:
-1 inferna tutor
-1 ponder
+ 2 seize/duress
or:
- 1 ab n
- 1 ponder
+ 2 seize/duress
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rsaunder
Breathweapon, the 4 disruption in your list should, without a doubt, be 4 orim's chant.
It strikes me that Ad Nauseum is very much an analog to DDay in new FT. Basically a bomb that fairly well makes obsilete the previous kill engines. There's no way this card will be banned, it costs fucking 5 mana. A deck has to be essentially built around it to use it effectively, and it just so happens that TES already kinda was.
As far as making matchups better, it'll probably do the same thing as doomsday: decrease your reliance on the graveyard. It still sucks going up against FOW but instead of losing to leyline (yes, i know you have outs, but they're slow) you fear direct damage and have to go off faster before goyf can smash your face a couple times (especially against red thresh, if they have bolt backup.) Yes, I know you should chant before going off and yes I know you should play around bolt, but I'm just saying it opens you up to these problems. Weather or not it will be a big deal remains uncertain.
Orim's Chant vs Duress isn't that simple, with out Ill Gotten Gains, I'm more inclined to use Duress because it hits Counterbalance. Even tho' Orim's Chant and Vexing Shusher are the default package, Duress and Red Elemental Blast could be a lot better considering both of them deal with Counterbalance pre-emptively. Now your protecting a single card instead of multiple cards from counters, so Orim's Chant and Vexing Shusher aren't really that necessary.
Ad Nauseum does a lot for TES, because now TES doesn't have to worry about permission in the graveyard or drawing the opponent into permission, which means we get to run a disruption package that deals with Counterbalance pre-emptively and still deals with their counter wall effectively.
When you stop and think about the dynamics, I think you'll see the paradigm is shifting towards Duress and Red Elemental blast, because we're more resilient to Stifle and no longer vulnerable to discarded Force of Wills etc. I really suggest you at least consider it, Ad Nauseum really changes how you have to look at combo in this format IMO.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Happy Gilmore
I would have to agree with much of what has been said, Chant may not be necessary now since you wont be giving them key counterspells back with Iggy. I would most likely cut them from the main, only using them for a wish SB. Either that or run a 3-1 combination with one of the other kill spells. With white no longer being necessary you could very simply run a fetchland manabase. Brainstorm and Ponder get better. And I would more than likely run all 8 1cc discard spells. Basically your looking at a Fetchland tendrils deck plus more red rituals.
It's exactly what I'm saying.
And then, why do I need IGG or Diminishing Returns when I can play a stronger spell? If I reveal Diminishing or IGG or EtW I take also 4 dmg. Anyway I can put them in SB.
I don't think that simply we can substitute Slithermuse with Ad Nauseum.
It's a too small step.
We need a more trasformation like in the deck I have written, that is very similar to the deck Breathweapon has written (why a pentacolor manabase? not fear of moon effect and wasteland? you don't want a better optimization of Brainstorm and Ponder?).
I'm also trying a version more similar to FT with Mystical Tutor.
Anyway this card is a great boost for TES.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Why does nobody mention, that if you run 4 Ad Nasaeums your chances of losing much life is high?
3x 5cc (you can't count the 1 Ad that you are casting)
4x 4cc (1 Tendrils, 1 Empty, 1 IGG, 1 Returns)
Ok, the CC of the deck is low, but just imaginage that you use City of Brass and Thoughtseize which can cost you 4-5 Life AND your opponent will do some damage as well.
If you can't play it Turn 2-3 then you "normally" can't lose more life than ~10.
If you need to wait longer, the life you can lose will sink dramaticly.
I'm not good at math, so I don't put on percentage of Damage you lose :)
EDIT: Random thought: Summoners Pact. Spellcount +1, searches Simian Spirit Guide. But you die if you can't win that round.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jegger
It's exactly what I'm saying.
And then, why do I need IGG or Diminishing Returns when I can play a stronger spell? If I reveal Diminishing or IGG or EtW I take also 4 dmg. Anyway I can put them in SB.
I don't think that simply we can substitute Slithermuse with Ad Nauseum.
It's a too small step.
We need a more trasformation like in the deck I have written, that is very similar to the deck Breathweapon has written (why a pentacolor manabase? not fear of moon effect and wasteland? you don't want a better optimization of Brainstorm and Ponder?).
I'm also trying a version more similar to FT with Mystical Tutor.
Anyway this card is a great boost for TES.
The 1st step was seeing whether or not Ad Nauseum made existing decks better, the 2nd step is disregarding existing decks and building around Ad Nauseum.
The list I posted was for the 1st step, but for the 2nd step I'm experimenting with cutting Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens, cutting Orim's Chant for Duress, cutting Rite of Flame for Cabal Ritual, cutting the 5c mana base for a 3c Fetchland mana base etc. at which point it's no longer TES.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
The 1st step was seeing whether or not Ad Nauseum made existing decks better, the 2nd step is disregarding existing decks and building around Ad Nauseum.
That's actually a really logical way of approaching the card. I'm not sure whether it's a perfect fit for TES or FT, but it's definitely strong enough to start another powerful combo deck. Regardless, it's worth exploring all the possibilities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Windux
EDIT: Random thought: Summoners Pact. Spellcount +1, searches Simian Spirit Guide. But you die if you can't win that round.
That doesn't work. Only green creatures. :frown:
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Windux
Why does nobody mention, that if you run 4 Ad Nasaeums your chances of losing much life is high?
I think my list does a good job of addressing this issue as you can see I run I cut Diminishing Returns and Empty from the maindeck to lower the curve I also cut thoughtseize to get rid of the life loss and I lowered the Simian Spirit Guide Count to further lower the Adverage C.C. of the deck while increasing Chrome Mox for example. I also on run 3 Ad Nauseams since the deck runs Tutors and Cantrips. My A.C.C. is 1.22 [And its actually lower since I would be casting and Ad Nauseam and anything else I played before it.] so I rarely end of killing myself.
// Lands
4 [6E] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
1 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
// Creatures
3 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
3 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [ALA] Ad Nauseum
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 [CHK] Cleanfall
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
Here is a sample hand from my list:
1 City of Brass, 1 Lotus Petal, 2 Dark ritual, 1 Ponder, 1 Ad Nauseam, 1 Infernal tutor
if you were to just go strait for Nauseam on the play your adverage C.C. of your library goes down to 1.11 generally the life loss isn't an issuen at all, you just have to know when to top drawing.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
While I agree that trying to fit Ad Nauseam into the current TES build without additional modifications isn't the greatest idea, I still think the card is a better engine card for the deck. It basically reads "3BB: Win." Reworking the deck to fit it in is definitely worth it, IMO, even if it shifts the deck somewhat away from the way TES is currently designed.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
This is my list now:
// Lands
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [8E] City of Brass
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
1 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
// Creatures
3 [ALA] Ad Nauseum
// Spells
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
3 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [MI] Mystical Tutor
1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
3 [US] Duress
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [...] Sudden Shock
SB: 1 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
I play black pact MD because new critter is a problem and in SB sudden shock is very very good versus it.
I think who mystical tutor is necessary because we can tutor more cards than wish or infernal.
This list must be improve!!!
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
I haven't been impressed, ramping up to 5 non-LED mana before turn 3 is unreliable even in TES, but it's a definite replacement for Ill Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns and that lets discard effects replace Abeyance/Orim's Chant effects.
I think U/b/r with Mystical Tutor is the way to go
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
I haven't been impressed, ramping up to 5 non-LED mana before turn 3 is unreliable even in TES, but it's a definite replacement for Ill Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns and that lets discard effects replace Abeyance/Orim's Chant effects.
I think U/b/r with Mystical Tutor is the way to go
Like I said before, it'll be awhile until I have time to test. I'm not going to dismiss my pet deck anytime soon off of someone elses word. However, I see a few problems with cutting both engines, we now lose to Meddling Mage. I think keeping one of them is a must. Probably Ill-Gotten Gains.
Also, Orim's Chant will always be better than discard in combo. Hands down. I don't really see the need for cutting down to three colors. While it works nicely with Brainstorm, I don't see a reason to lose other tools for a shuffle.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Windux
EDIT: Random thought: Summoners Pact. Spellcount +1, searches Simian Spirit Guide. But you die if you can't win that round.
Pact only fetches green creatures...
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
I don't really see the need for cutting down to three colors. While it works nicely with Brainstorm, I don't see a reason to lose other tools for a shuffle.
Blue isn't just for Brainstorm, it's also for Mystical Tutor, though I suppose you could drop Brainstorm to run the rainbow lands. I think Brainstorm + fetchlands is the better option.
I'm not as sold on Orim's Chant without IGG as you are, though.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
Blue isn't just for Brainstorm, it's also for Mystical Tutor, though I suppose you could drop Brainstorm to run the rainbow lands. I think Brainstorm + fetchlands is the better option.
I'm not as sold on Orim's Chant without IGG as you are, though.
Mystical Tutor is terrible. I can't emphasize it enough. I've been saying it for years. I've been running Brainstorm all along, where have you been? Fetchlands aren't worth making Vexing Shusher weak and losing Orim's Chant. Not to mention losing valuable wish targets.
Also, I'll still be running Ill-Gotten Gains. You need another engine, without a second engine any combo deck becomes weaker. I've played combo once or twice and know these things.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Mystical Tutor is bad in your current TES version because of the way TES is built around Burning Wish. Mystical Tutor itself is a very strong card and happens to be better than Burning Wish if you plan to use Ad Nauseam as the engine card replacing IGG. Considering how retarded Ad Nauseam is, I would say it is better to build around it than just plug it in a deck not designed to abuse it.
However, that makes the deck no longer TES so I will stop discussing AdN in this deck. While it may improve the deck some to run 1 AdN, I think focusing around AdN is better. I'll make further commentary in the ANT thread in N&D.
Sorry for sidetracking the TES discussion. Carry on.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
I'm thinking who play only duress involve don't play ill-gotten gains or Diminishing Returns.
I'm working for a UB list!!!
a possible list:
// Lands
4 [B] Underground Sea
8 [SHM] Swamp (2)
2 [RAV] Island (2)
// Creatures
3 [ALA] Ad N.
// Spells
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
1 [DS] Echoing Truth
4 [US] Duress
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre
SB: 1 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [MOR] Negate
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Like I said before, it'll be awhile until I have time to test. I'm not going to dismiss my pet deck anytime soon off of someone elses word. However, I see a few problems with cutting both engines, we now lose to Meddling Mage. I think keeping one of them is a must. Probably Ill-Gotten Gains.
Also, Orim's Chant will always be better than discard in combo. Hands down. I don't really see the need for cutting down to three colors. While it works nicely with Brainstorm, I don't see a reason to lose other tools for a shuffle.
I don't seem to have a problem with choosing between Ad Nauseam and Empty the Warrens with Infernal Tutor and Ill Gotten Gains, Diminishing Returns and Empty the Warrens with Burning Wish, but there's no harm in running another target for Infernal Tutor. I'd lean more towards MDing a Diminishing Returns because it's not as much of a brick, and then SBing in Ill Gotten Gains for the "fire and forget" against aggro strategies.
I don't think TES, FT or SI are going any where, Ad Nauseam is just offering another 1x engine card to established archetypes. To make a 4x Ad Nauseam deck, I think you have to use Mystical Tutor just to be able to find the Dark Rituals, which totally scraps the idea here.
I don't think Orim's Chant is hands down better than discard when Orim's Chant is no longer required to compensate for the draw backs of our Storm Engines. It comes straight down to whether or not you want to stop double Counterspell/Spellsnare or discard Counterbalance, Stifle isn't much of a concern now that Ad Nauseam just powers thru' it.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Random questions:
What is the difference between iggy pop and TES?
Is TES better than fetchlands tendrils? Why??
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GoldenCid
Random questions:
What is the difference between iggy pop and TES?
Is TES better than fetchlands tendrils? Why??
TES is quicker than both iggy-pop and FT...
FT is the natural evolution of iggy-pop.
The difference is speed vs resilience and consistency.
TES is at least a turn quicker in goldfishing compared to FT, but FT can deal with hate a little better.
That is the difference there.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thefreakaccident
TES is quicker than both iggy-pop and FT...
FT is the natural evolution of iggy-pop.
The difference is speed vs resilience and consistency.
TES is at least a turn quicker in goldfishing compared to FT, but FT can deal with hate a little better.
That is the difference there.
I've been saying that for so long about combo decks, period (mostly storm though). Like SI and Belcher are quick, but I feel they too inconsistent for me to play. TES has speed and a bit of resilience. FT is slightly slower than TES, but what I feel to be a little more consistent. And then there is stuff like Solidarity, which takes a little while to set up, but when it does, you usually win.
I'm waiting for someone to make AN work really well and give the deck enough resilience to give it a fighting chance. I like Bryant's and JV's list a lot, but I kinda glanced at it.
When do you think you should stop flipping from AN? When you have enough junk to win? Or do you flip more? I understand that without Orim's Chant, you wouldn't go too low against burn, but what about plain aggro? Control?
I think an interesting matchup would be a 3x Twincast Solidarity against this. You pretty much need to use it on their turn or have Chant.
