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I used to run Bitterblossom in a UWb Landstill shell. It was really good in testing and tournament. I don't mind paying life for threats, but I had problems beating decks like goblins because of the life loss. Other than that, I think it's a great idea for a win-condition and runs just as good under Humility.
You mean like my list?Quote:
You all realize you don't need Tarmogoyfs when playing Counterbalance, right? Why can't we just use Counterbalance for card advantage? I mean, if the soft-lock takes you to late game, you should be winning anyway because it's Landstill.
So I say just run more cards that help you stabilize and isnt susceptible to removal, like Goyf. Play cards like WoG and such to help you stabilize and run cards Monastery so that you have a better clock under Counterbalance.
Yes, something like that, except I would cut a fetchland and a Factory for 2 more Monasteries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
@ Rockout, Citrus-God
ok ok. But if you're playing blossom you'll be playing with Cunning-PoF?
Goyf does have its weaknesses (mainly making opposing removal relevant), but I have find it quite difficult to develop LS deck that can profit balance: The CMC of the traditional lists and the land count just don't suit. Still, I'm concerned by not having a fast clock (specially if I loose g1).
Anyway, board control elements that don't conflict with balance and suit the curve: Vindicate as you suggested.
Do you have any list with black splash? tutor yes/no?
11 1cc spells and 12 2cc spells are sufficient enough to support Counterbalance.Quote:
but I have find it quite difficult to develop LS deck that can profit balance: The CMC of the traditional lists and the land count just don't suit. Still, I'm concerned by not having a fast clock (specially if I loose g1).
The clock of Landstill is supposed to be irrelevant since it's designed to be a late game control deck. Manlands work well enough for all intents and purposes, and the alternate wins of either Decree, Elspeth, Dragon, and/or Ajani work just fine. Not saying that Goyf is good or bad, just explaining that the only time having a fast clock is going to matter is against combo, where CounterTop is still an improvement over other Landstill variants without it.
I hate to be that guy, but can you talk about your actual experience playing Goyf in Landstill? My experience playing Goyf for over a year has been contrary to your comments. Sure, maybe they'll StP your Goyf, maybe they'll StP your Monastery or Factory, can't really get too concerned about that -- it's not like LS wins with Brain Freeze. Vs. Aggro, consider it a removal spell that turns into really good creature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
Vs. Combo, Goyf is a fast clock which cuts down the number of draw steps your opponent has to get into the game. He ends games fast; that's his role and is much better than beating for 2-4 with manlands while a bunch of your mana is tapped down.
Bitterblossom has no synergy with the deck, you have no way to stop a BB that is going to kill you (e.g. Mistbind Clique) and the life loss is going to cause you to lose many games (mainly Vs. Aggro; Tendrils doesn't have to do as much work either). Goyf is much better against any deck running burn, for instance. I tested 3x BB back in the summer and yanked them. They are good in the mirror, however, since your life total is much less an issue.Quote:
Bitterblossom is just as good. Seriously, why arent you people running that instead of Goyf?
I won't say Goyf is the absolute suck in this deck, but against Threshold, Goyfs can decent mainly because when they cast a removal spell on your Goyf, it isn't so consequential because of the game state and the way Threshold was designed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
Against Vial Goblins and Goyf Sligh, I was never really fond of it. Against Goyf Sligh, it just seemed like they were going to win against you anyway. They'll just cast Vexing Shusher and just throw burn spells at your head. Against Goblins, they'll just chump block with mindless hordes of randomness until they cast a Warren Weirding or a bomb.
Against Combo, Goyfs never really seemed special to me. Pre board, they're poorly equipped against a resolved Counterbalance/Top anyway, unless it's adjusted for a Thresh heavy meta. I will accept my loss game 1, and just board in Runed Halos and Mages game 2 anyway.
So is Counterbalance. The fact Counterbalance/Top resolved already gives your opponent an incentive to move onto Game 2.Quote:
Vs. Combo, Goyf is a fast clock which cuts down the number of draw steps your opponent has to get into the game. He ends games fast; that's his role and is much better than beating for 2-4 with manlands while a bunch of your mana is tapped down.
Bitterblossom has synergy with the deck; it chump blocks until you gain position, it's amazing under Standstill, and its a good threat. And if you're concerned with the life loss, just play Elspeth instead then. Only difference is that you can potentially be more likely to win a match when you cast it on Turn 2. And if you can cast 2 of them, you've basically won against Thresh.Quote:
Bitterblossom has no synergy with the deck, you have no way to stop a BB that is going to kill you (e.g. Mistbind Clique) and the life loss is going to cause you to lose many games (mainly Vs. Aggro; Tendrils doesn't have to do as much work either). Goyf is much better against any deck running burn, for instance. I tested 3x BB back in the summer and yanked them. They are good in the mirror, however, since your life total is much less an issue.
Although Bitterblossom may not be as good as Goyf against Burn, I believe Bitterblossom to be amazing against Goblins. They were evasive, deadly, and amazing at keeping me in a dominant position. They also allow me to capitalize on WoG effects.
The best way to get rid of Bitterblossoms is to use EE. No, you arent going to crack an EE just to primarily keep BB, you're doing it to destroy opposing CBs. BB just happen to leave because of course.
My evidence for testing Bitterblossom was because of late a build of TEC Nightmare posted. Yes, I am aware Goyfs were present in that list, but I saw myself boarding them out frequently. I have, however, tested Counterbalance and Goyfs in Landstill, sadly, no Bitterblossom.
Bitterblossom seems to me, like it would get in the way of engineered explosives. I can understand where running Elspeth can be nice, because a token generator that can make things indestructable and on top of that doesnt get in the way of your EE. i really do not like putting anything down on the board if it will get in the way of my EE.
Well, you could run Elspeth instead then. Elspeth is a good card, though it comes down on Turn 4, you have the permission and answers to help stall the game until you drop Elspeth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Resist_Temptation
I don't think splashing black (or green for that matter) is not the right call at all. UW has enough going for it as far as control and win conditions.(Eg. e.dragon,hoofprints,mishra factories,threads of disloyalty,farie conclave,ajani,decree of justice, and sometimes even monistaries) Mana bases can be hit harder making wastelands more fearsome, plus I dont think your losing a lot as well. Bitterblossems is slow,e.explosives nail just about as much as deed,and running threads to steal their hard earned goyf is almost as good as running the little green guy. To put it simply unless your meta doesnt use wastelands or stifle I would stick with two colors for resiliance.
Sorry to change the topic, but just out of curiosity, what numbers have you guys figured out are the minimums to make counterbalance useful? I've had some luck with 13 1cc's and 11 2cc's, but have you guys found any particular numbers good to shoot for in a build?
see the it-s the fear numbers they re the perfect onesQuote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
Really poor post in the DTB forum. Verbal warning for poor writing skills. - Bardo
I recently went 5-1 on a 35 person tournament becoming 3rd with the deck.
List can be found here: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21770
I won against Canadian Threshhold(#8), ANT (#7), Team America, an Extended Deck and Elfball, losing only to the mirrormatch which played 3 Vindicates - no Elspeths tho.
During the entire tournament I used the Wish exactly one time to pitch it into a Force of Will. A buddy of mine who became 5th played 3 Vindicates and was totally satisfied with it. I'm currently thinking about just cutting the Wish for 2 Vindicates and a more versatile and bigger sideboard.
Comments?
Since we're discussing counterbalance, why has the focus shifted away from Zvi's Worlds 2007 list, i.e. Enlightened Tutor-powered? It seems like it gives you a natural toolbox like Cunning Wish, but has insane synergies with CounterTop - finds both, shuffles for Top, puts a card where you want for Counterbalance...Not to mention a more resilient mana base. Any particular metagame shift I'm unaware of that's led away from this type of build?
@fredmaster: How amazing was Elspeth for you?
I ran an E. Tutor toolbox in a UWb shell. I'll post the list:
// Lands
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
2 [B] Tundra
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
// Spells
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [FNM] Counterspell
3 [LRW] Hoofprints of the Stag - amazing
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
2 [TE] Propaganda
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TE] Humility - broken
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [FNM] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
You might be thinking, "Propaganda?" I was able to beat Ichorid twice on my way to a top 8 with this build. I even went end of turn E. Tutor for tormod's crypt on the play and got rid of 20 cards that be lion's eye diamond + breakthrough into his yard.
It treated my well all day. I lost in the top 8 to an epic survival match.
The changes, to the list, if I took it to a tournament tomorrow would be -3 Hoofprints +1 decree +2 Elspeth. -2 Pulse of the Fields +2 Ajani. You can always add Counterbalance to the list.
I was the Team America guy Fred beat.
He won one game just by dropping the Elspeth producing one token and swinging in.
When i finally got a crit (turn6) he dropped humility and that was the sargnagel (= coffins nail) for me.
I can say that Fred is totally amazed by the elspeths and i don't see a time he would ever drop just one of them.
It's just too strong with humility and still neat without it.
As for me i'm convinced by those planesdudes as well and would always play them.
Besides that my list looks quite the same since we are teammates.
If Hoofprints is amazing, why are you removing it? ...?
the only problem i see with running bitterblossom is how bad of synergy it has with engineered explosives. unless you really do not plan to be using EE for 2...which is but a pipe dream. I happen to like cunning wish and it really helps..depending on what matchup you have. it helps you in the burn matchup if you have access to pulse of the fields first game. and then it also gives you access to extirpate game one and also i am not pleased with counterbalance in landstill. Engineered Explosives is the most effective mass removal spell, and when many of the formats great creatures happen to be 2cc, it is not smart to be running multiple copies of 2cc permanents, that will actually stay on the table...i dont count standstill seeing as you shouldn't be dropping it while a threat is one the board. and by looking at your sidboard i can see why cunning wish was useless. If you are running wish you might as well have a good wishboard. by throwing cunning wish into a deck it wont make it good. I figure if you tune the sideboard to actually accomadate for having decent one ofs in the sideboard, you will like cunning wish much more. a sample WishBoard that i got from mossivo looks something like this.
1 Extirpate
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the fields
2 Blue elemental blast
2 Hydroblast
1 Return to Dust
Although keep in mind the maindeck was different, so some of these choices may not work in your deck.
NQN (Sudmann) wasn't too impressed with Vindicates in his testing. Then again he hardly ever drew them :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by FredMaster
I actually haven't gotten to exessive testing on Vindicates sofar. Whenever they showed up though I mostly liked them better than Wishes simply for their relative speed.
In some situations they're a Wrath for CMC3 in others they're a CMC3 Disenchant. In fact Vindicates do most stuff Wishes do just more efficiently (read: faster). Vindicates are a one-card toolbox, which makes up for their sorceryness and mana requirements.
Speed and versatility is what every true control deck should seek. That's why I believe adding 2-3 Vindicates can be viewed as a natural evolution.
Some might argue Wishes belong to the untouchable core of every competitive LS shell. Some might claim that it comes down to mere play style preferences. I claim that with TA growing more and more popular and most archetypes getting access to more powerful and faster spells, Wishstill will turn out too clunky to compete for the crown.
Of course there are several situations in which Cunning Wish is strictly better than Vindicate. Burn, Sligh and swarmaggro.dec being popular examples. (Humility+) Wish-> POT.Fields might be the only way to win such games against a competent opponent with regular topdecking skills. But as Fredmaster pointed out, getting rid of Wishes opens the up to more focussed, better tuned SBs.
Lastly, here's one that I'd take to an unknown meta:
4 Meddling Mage
2 Runed Halo/Ethersworn Canonist
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Ajani Goldmane
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
I like the idea of doing a split with cannonist and meddling mage like 2-1 in mages favor. Basicly sliding the cannonist against combo obv and so you can tutor for it, but basicly my problem lies in the fact that mage is simply better, and also you can wish for relic, so why put cannonist in two slots that your already using to stabilze 3-4 other matches aka beb, hydro slots.
in non wish versions which is what I think you refering to with your sb I would still play the fourth relic over academy ruin's able tormod. The random chance that your draw your tormod's against aggro loam and still giving them enough tempo to swing for a game win is much more then i'd really prefer. I'd rather take my chances on getting a relic or not getting a relic at all. Plus most versions now are packing atleast 1 enli tutor main or sb so you can have up to a 1-7 chance of getting a relic + whatever card advantage you have by turn 4.