[Deck] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era

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Originally Posted by ansset

You're wrong on almost all of your points. To wit:

1. Eternal Witness is really fucking strong.

So I hear that Counterbalance/Top does not, in fact, beat every deck ever, and that sometimes you even have to try to beat decks without relying on a soft lock. Goblins come to mind here. Go ahead, try to Counterbalance their Ringleader, or really do anything with it if they ever resolve Vial. Here, Eternal Witness is insanely good. In addition, it provides a lot of value against Landstill and decks with similar plans. If they aren't attacking you, THAT'S A GOOD THING. That's like trying to justify running less than 4 Counterbalance by saying, "Well, you're winning if you have one, so run 3 so you never see the second one!" Awful.

2. As for having a better plan: yes, sometimes you just Etched Oracle and pay 8 mana to draw Ancestral Recall every turn. Sometimes, though, you need to stop an attack deck, and drawing a 2/1 + a Swords to Plowshares every turn is really really good.

3. Having Stronghold can mean recurring not-Eternal Witness, too. Sometimes decks kill your Goyf. Getting those back can be good. It also contributes to furthering the soft-lock capabilities of Counterbalance by being able to put a 2 on top of your library in the late game, something that Ruins cannot do.

4. Your manabase is terrible. What do you ever want a third Underground Sea for? This deck wants Black the least of all its colors. Yes, Deed, sure, but aside from that only Etched Oracle, Stronghold, and EE on 4 want Black mana. Play 2. Also, 10 fetches is ridiculous. Enjoy the added life loss against aggro decks. The deck will run out of mana sources long before it runs out of fetchlands. You're actually increasing your dead draws lategame in exchange for absolutely nothing. Making the deck EVEN WORSE against Stifle is unappealing. If you're not a good enough player to play around Stifle, get better. There are ways to not get turn 1 fetchland Stifled. Believe me, I've beaten Canadian Thrash and Team America in matches where they held multiple Stifles. Why? Because it is actually pretty easy to not just cartwheel into Stifle.

One final point: with your manabase, you don't get to not run 4 Blue Elemental Blast, because you flat out lose to resolved Blood Moon. I don't like BEB much in this deck, and I have the relative luxury of cutting it because I run 1 Plains. Losing to Blood Moon is also unappealing. I don't really see what the deck gains with your changes, but I see a lot of what it loses.

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Oh man, I have really stepped on your toe it seems :)
The major problem of internet forums is that they do not evolve the decks they are arguing about, because for every single "innovator" there are like hundreds of "worshippers of the sacred cow = original decklist" :)
I will try to address some of your points, although I do not feel like I can persuade you, or better, you do not look like you would allow me to persuade you.

1. Eternal Witness - for every single time I used it to my advantage in a way you pictured, there were 10 times when it just sat in my hand because I either didn't have double green mana, or did not have the time to cast her, or didn't need to do so. She would be awesome if I could not ever draw her "normally" and only tutor her up with Intuition, but that's not the case and thus I dumped her in favor of greater consistency.
Matchup against Landstill is already quite good, and against Goblins - they are not so heavily played anymore, and in case your metagame is infested with little green men - well, use another deck, or sideboard Engineered Plague.

2. I do not see the Witness plan as being synergistic with the rest of the deck. ITF is not some kind of rock trying to win with little incremental card advantage. We are trying to soft lock an opponent out of the game using CB+Top and have the SB plan ready for decks where we can not.

3. Yes, I already mentioned in my previous post that with the cut of Stronghold I lose the recurring goyf. I can live with it. I didn't recurr goyf more times than I wished for Stronghold to actually produce some color of mana I could, like, use or something. :laugh:

4. 10 fetchland manabase works well. The difference in the loss of life is almost nonexistant. 2 more fetches in 60 cards deck deal like 0.3 more damage per game.
Underground Sea is 3x, because with less black sources I risk to be stopped from using black with Wasteland. Really, to draw 2x Wasteland is quite normal. Also, deep6er used 3x Underground Sea in both of his successful decklists.
For deck like TA it's actually quite a problem to use Stifle during the first few turns of the game (they have to Ponder, Thoughtseize etc) and they tend to provide window where fetchland can be used. And if you absolutely can not outrun the Stifle, it is better to have more fetchlands than fewer, they can't stop every one of them, while we can find the exact lands we need.

And "final point": yes, Blood Moon is a problem. I run 6 BEB/Hydroblasts in SB and really like them.


@lilrikki2000: Daze vs. Counterspell: I already tried Daze in the deck and it felt good, sometimes being more powerful than CS, sometimes being worse. Main problem with Daze is the mana setback which can be in case of ITF really huge. While deck like Thrash has a really low curve, ITF on the other hand tries to resolve cards like Intuition or Pernicious Deed and use Loam engine.
So far I am fan of Daze as it gives us way to interact even during first turns of the game and while tapped out, but as you can see my opinion is not very highly valued by the fellow members - I am notorious innovator :cool:

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Originally Posted by ansset

You're wrong on almost all of your points. To wit:

1. Eternal Witness is really fucking strong.

So I hear that Counterbalance/Top does not, in fact, beat every deck ever, and that sometimes you even have to try to beat decks without relying on a soft lock. Goblins come to mind here. Go ahead, try to Counterbalance their Ringleader, or really do anything with it if they ever resolve Vial. Here, Eternal Witness is insanely good. In addition, it provides a lot of value against Landstill and decks with similar plans. If they aren't attacking you, THAT'S A GOOD THING. That's like trying to justify running less than 4 Counterbalance by saying, "Well, you're winning if you have one, so run 3 so you never see the second one!" Awful.

2. As for having a better plan: yes, sometimes you just Etched Oracle and pay 8 mana to draw Ancestral Recall every turn. Sometimes, though, you need to stop an attack deck, and drawing a 2/1 + a Swords to Plowshares every turn is really really good.

3. Having Stronghold can mean recurring not-Eternal Witness, too. Sometimes decks kill your Goyf. Getting those back can be good. It also contributes to furthering the soft-lock capabilities of Counterbalance by being able to put a 2 on top of your library in the late game, something that Ruins cannot do.

4. Your manabase is terrible. What do you ever want a third Underground Sea for? This deck wants Black the least of all its colors. Yes, Deed, sure, but aside from that only Etched Oracle, Stronghold, and EE on 4 want Black mana. Play 2. Also, 10 fetches is ridiculous. Enjoy the added life loss against aggro decks. The deck will run out of mana sources long before it runs out of fetchlands. You're actually increasing your dead draws lategame in exchange for absolutely nothing. Making the deck EVEN WORSE against Stifle is unappealing. If you're not a good enough player to play around Stifle, get better. There are ways to not get turn 1 fetchland Stifled. Believe me, I've beaten Canadian Thrash and Team America in matches where they held multiple Stifles. Why? Because it is actually pretty easy to not just cartwheel into Stifle.

One final point: with your manabase, you don't get to not run 4 Blue Elemental Blast, because you flat out lose to resolved Blood Moon. I don't like BEB much in this deck, and I have the relative luxury of cutting it because I run 1 Plains. Losing to Blood Moon is also unappealing. I don't really see what the deck gains with your changes, but I see a lot of what it loses.

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Rawr! Do not anger Drew for he is a cranky monster!

Also, how in the world do you fully justify cutting stronghold? The deck is designed to win by simply recurring threats and answers, stronghold is one of your most powerful assets with intuition.

Now I by now means endorse the cutting of Volrath's Stronghold or Eternal Witness, they're amazing and add so much to the deck, but I think some reasons that he would justify cutting them is the only thing he'd be recurring
with Stronghold if he didn't have Witness is Goyf, because he has Ruins for Oracle, and since Goyf usually gets SToPed, he's not in the graveyard to get recurred, so he thinks that it isn't worth it pretty much, that's just an argument from his point of view.
But again, I strongly discourage cutting Goyf and Witness, cause even with STP, Goyf goes to the graveyard, and I have recurred him from it, many times to win games too.
@Spare Parts: Also, what do you do when you need to Intuition up Goyfs to win, and you don't have Stronghold to bring the other two back from the yard? I know I'd really wish I was running Stronghold.

I'd like to point out 1 other reason to run witness and Stronghold:

You get to set up your counterbalance which is at the heart of the deck.
Ruins puts top (1), EE(0), and Oracle (4) on top of your deck
Stronghold puts Tarmogoyf (2) and Witness (3)

This is an integral part of the strategy.

Also to deal with opponents TGoyf, you don't always have a swords, so you can EE it away, sometimes with yours. The difference is that you recur yours.

Cutting Stronghold is mind boggling. Innovations are rad if they don't make your deck weaker.

As I see it, there must be a fundamental difference in the way me and you, guys, play ITF.
I always play it safe. I do not Intuition for 3x Tarmogoyf, I simply wait for it. I try to always lock my opponent out. This last time in the semifinals I played like 10 turns of draw&go against Goyf Stompy while waiting for Goyf with assembled CB&Top@table (and goyf hovering on top as the only 2cc card the whole time).
You guys are probably playing it a lot more aggressively, going into risks with potential large gains. I'm not trying to say that it's a bad thing, hell no, it's just the part where me and you differ in our views of the deck.

So far my changes reflected my play style and served me really well. I will keep following "my way" as it seems it suits me well and keep you guys informed on my progress, even though it may be a dead end. Progress cannot be made while standing in one place, don't you agree? :wink:

Feel free to try my suggestions out. You may be surprised (or not - but there is only one way how to really find out) :laugh:

But that sorta embodies what ITF is; a deck that is versatile enough to go aggressive should the game permit, or sit back and play the safe, traditional control game.

IMO, you're focusing too much on the control aspect of it, which at that point, you're playing UBGx Landstill w/ CounterTop.

My innovations about the deck are :
-2 counterspell = +1 Glen Elendra + 1 Sowerof temptation ,

However I have to say I'm absolutly happy with the base list as it was made,
like solidarity it's a perfect conjunction of cards with a same purpose


Sparprts is in ritgh
Arsenal is in mistake
thats simple

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Originally Posted by jazzykat

I'd like to point out 1 other reason to run witness and Stronghold:

You get to set up your counterbalance which is at the heart of the deck.
Ruins puts top (1), EE(0), and Oracle (4) on top of your deck
Stronghold puts Tarmogoyf (2) and Witness (3)

This is an integral part of the strategy.

Also to deal with opponents TGoyf, you don't always have a swords, so you can EE it away, sometimes with yours. The difference is that you recur yours.

Cutting Stronghold is mind boggling. Innovations are rad if they don't make your deck weaker.

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Ruins also puts Shackles (3), and Stronghold can put Oracle (4) too

How many people still play this deck consistently/in weekly tournaments? I do and I'd love for people who play this deck consistently or in weekly tournaments to maybe reports for this thread, and discuss, bad or good matchups, and sideboarding. I play this deck every sunday at my local store and am gonna try to write a tournament report one of these days if we have a good tournament. But I'd like to hear some feedback on peoples lists, good/bad matchups that they've encountered playing it, and how they sideboard.

-2 Counterspell -1 Shackles -1 Island +3 Ponder +1 Sensei's Divining Top.

Really. Try it. Your view of this deck will change completely. It's like, really good and stuff.


More to the point, the deck can beat almost anything if you have the right game plan. I'm not remotely afraid of NLU. Why? Because they're vulnerable to Counter/Top, and I always have inevitability because of Loam and two recursion lands. Same goes for Goblins (Tarmogoyf, Eternal Witness + Swords), same goes for Dreadstill (EE, KGrip, Counter/Top), the list goes on. This deck is all about knowing how to play against certain decks. Figure that out, and you'll notice you win a lot more games.

The deck is a Counterbalance/Top deck, yes. It is not, however, a pure control deck that does or can afford to sit around for seven turns, "locking" your opponent out with Counter/Top. Want to know why? Because those two cards do not actually mean you win the game. Other decks will just wait for you to do something relevant. That's why we have Tarmogoyf and Etched Oracle and recursion lands: because until we start clocking them, they don't have to do a damn thing. They can play draw-go until they have a sick hand, play a bunch of lands, cast their answer to Counterbalance, whatever that may be, and suddenly you realize that you've wasted seven turns. It needs the transition, because without a transition, it's just a near-creatureless version of Thresh. The reason we're better than Thresh in-game is because we have answers to their trumps, we have more removal, we have counterbalance, and we have a theoretically endless number of threats.


Sideboard cards:

BEB: Obvious in its applications, not currently in my sideboard. Not as good as Plague against Goblins, but a fine filler card if you see red decks in your metagame and have open slots.
Plague: Obvious. I play 4 and will continue to do so at every major tournament I attend where my lands tap for black mana.
Leyline: If you see that much Ichorid, it's a worthwhile card. Then again, you might be better off playing a different deck in that case.
Crypt: A constant 1-of or 3-of in my board, just because there are so many matchups where it has random utility and we play Intuition (Loam, Survival, Ichorid, 43land, the list goes on).
Krosan Grip: If you play less than 4 of this card in the sideboard of this deck, I will genuinely respect you less for it. This card is reasonable against almost all decks in Legacy and an absolute blowout against the rest of them.
Perish: A spicy 1-3-of that has applications against Thresh w/ Geese and random other green creatures, Loam, Progenitus, and lol elf survival. A narrow card, one that I'm still considering, but I've seen it in two tournament games, cast it both times for value (Goose + Goyf each time), and won as a direct result both times. Sometimes, you just want to Wrath them.
Path to Exile: 2-4 have made their way into my sideboard from time to time, as I respect Team America, I understand that their cards are all really good against us, and I know that their only weakness that we can attack (don't board in 3/4 Wastelands, they'll destroy us before Wastelands can make an impact) is their low threat density. Path is the ideal card to attack such a weakness. It has random other applications (boarded it in against Dragon Stompy for hilarious times to kill time waiting for one of my 2 EEs to take out their Blood Moon; worked), and it's a really reasonable card against Ichorid (you can almost play the inevitability game with them post-board, since they slow their deck down to bring in Needles and Chains and whatever else), but its inclusion is really just for Team America. There are better cards against all the other matchups.

Current sideboard:

4 Grip
4 Plague
1 Crypt

I don't see myself changing those 9 cards anytime soon.

2 Perish
2 Path to Exile
2 Blue Elemental Blast

These six are entirely up to you.

So if what I'm getting is that you're saying that this deck needs to apply more pressure than just sit with countertop in play, why would you remove one of it's best threats, Shackles?
Just want to know your reasoning for it :)

@annset: I foresee problems in CB performance with removing two 2cc cards and one 3cc card. I tried to replace Counterspells with other cards before (such as with Thoughtseize) but I witnessed sudden drop in effectivity of CB hits. With only eight 2cc drops (3 CB, 4 goyfs, LftL) left in the deck it becomes increasingly difficult to find one, even with SDT and fetch effects. Also, 2cc is most important number to hit with blind CB. Don't take me wrong, I love myself some Ponder, but in good conscience I just cannot justify futher cut in the number of 2cc cards in the deck.

PtE in SB? Interesting addition, against TA mainly... I don't see it really performing against other decks, however.
I am skipping on Plagues, running 4 more BEB instead - still good against Goblins, awesome against Dragon Stompy and nicely performing against Burn and Goyf Stompy (they use to bring Vexing Shusher in, this solves it).

I may try some toying with Ponder in the meantime, maybe I will find some place myself to squeeze it in. Spell Snare maybe? With Daze instead of CS to compensate?

If you're looking to cut Counterspell might I recommend -1 Etched Oracle, -2 Counterspell, +3 Dark Confidant. There's your card advantage and 2cc card for CB as well. It's also very nice to lot have to lose a draw when you're going for recursion. Your opponent MUST answer this card.

I board 2x Path to Exile in both Thresh and in Landstill for almost any man-based strategy not running Counterbalance. I've toyed with it in ITF, but with 4 colors there are some powerful hate cards you get access to, plus the additional removal in sweepers. I've moved to Propaganda from Plagues mostly for Merfolk with their lord effects; hitting 1 Propaganda is better against them than hitting 1 E. Plague. They also run Stifle effects for your sweepers, and frequently can walk right by your men. Path is good in this matchup too.

My current SB looks something like this:
3 Krosan Grip - can and has been 4, but I've had multiples stuck in my hand while my opponent drops Goyfs instead of Tops/Counterbalances. Three is enough for me right now.
3 BEB - Only if I expect Dragon Stompy
2 Tormod's Crypt - Dredge has been making regular appearances in my meta
2 Propaganda - Merfolk, Ichorid, Goblins, Elves (all in my meta), pitches to FoW
2 Pithing Needle - VIAL!!! Also Survival and Factory
2 Chainer's Edict - Not sold on this one; a flexible slot. This could be PtE if I don't think Progenitus is going to show up, as Edict is usually pretty narrow.
1 Vedalken Shackles - Also a flexible slot

The hardest part is what to take out when boarding. I usually just cut Intuition, Brainstorm, Deed, LftL, Goyf, Shackles, possibly another Brainstorm + FoW because I get super low on blue cards post-board usually. Obviously the above mentioned cards vary by matchup.

It's difficult to go below 3 of anything (read: Deed) because then you can no longer effectively tutor it up with Intuition. I'd be interested to know others' general sideboarding strategy when boarding out.

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

If you're looking to cut Counterspell might I recommend -1 Etched Oracle, -2 Counterspell, +3 Dark Confidant. There's your card advantage and 2cc card for CB as well. It's also very nice to lot have to lose a draw when you're going for recursion. Your opponent MUST answer this card.

I board 2x Path to Exile in both Thresh and in Landstill for almost any man-based strategy not running Counterbalance. I've toyed with it in ITF, but with 4 colors there are some powerful hate cards you get access to, plus the additional removal in sweepers. I've moved to Propaganda from Plagues mostly for Merfolk with their lord effects; hitting 1 Propaganda is better against them than hitting 1 E. Plague. They also run Stifle effects for your sweepers, and frequently can walk right by your men. Path is good in this matchup too.

My current SB looks something like this:
3 Krosan Grip - can and has been 4, but I've had multiples stuck in my hand while my opponent drops Goyfs instead of Tops/Counterbalances. Three is enough for me right now.
3 BEB - Only if I expect Dragon Stompy
2 Tormod's Crypt - Dredge has been making regular appearances in my meta
2 Propaganda - Merfolk, Ichorid, Goblins, Elves (all in my meta), pitches to FoW
2 Pithing Needle - VIAL!!! Also Survival and Factory
2 Chainer's Edict - Not sold on this one; a flexible slot. This could be PtE if I don't think Progenitus is going to show up, as Edict is usually pretty narrow.
1 Vedalken Shackles - Also a flexible slot

The hardest part is what to take out when boarding. I usually just cut Intuition, Brainstorm, Deed, LftL, Goyf, Shackles, possibly another Brainstorm + FoW because I get super low on blue cards post-board usually. Obviously the above mentioned cards vary by matchup.

It's difficult to go below 3 of anything (read: Deed) because then you can no longer effectively tutor it up with Intuition. I'd be interested to know others' general sideboarding strategy when boarding out.

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Problem with Dark Confidant is that it is black - going below 20 blue cards maindeck is troublesome. What you did is exactly that, and even lower after sideboarding. 18 g1, even less g2 - why even bother playing FoW anymore? :)
We need our FoW up and running, like, every time we draw it to be able to interact during first 3 turns of game.

Pithing Needle may look as a great sideboard card on paper, but it is not - trust me on this. Against matchups where we need it, we want to use EE and Pernicious Deed - and thus end up blowing up our own Needle pretty often.

As to sideboarding - against fast decks I recommend to take out Intuition and toolbox - LftL, Oracle, maybe also Shackles (depends on matchup). That should make place for like 6 sb cards which is healthy number against aggro strategies.
Against decks where CB doesn't work, take out CBs and finally, against threshold with Mongeese and decks playing few creatures, take out a few StPs for Krosan Grips (not if they are playing Sowers!).

My sideboard looks something like this currently:
3x Krosan Grip
6x Hydroblast / BEB
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod's Crypt
3x Stifle

Split of Relic and Crypt to be able to Intuition for LftL+Ruins+"not needled artifact hoser" even after Pithing Needle was set.
Stifle is against ANT, but it may be switched for something else.

If you want to hose storm combo decks, I think you need either Duress or Orim's Chant.

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Originally Posted by jazzykat

If you want to hose storm combo decks, I think you need either Duress or Orim's Chant.

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Those Stifles are pretty much in the air, I am still not convinced by any of the choices so far. What about, dunno, Ethersworn Canonist? It looks quite powerful (in the abstract). And you are right, Duress looks like it may be more powerful than Stifle although it is better to not underestimate the ability of ANT to goldfish from any topdecked Mystical Tutor or Ad Nauseam itself...

It's a matter of getting down Counterbalance and protecting it while you win. ITF can easily float 3 on top for Grip, even though a skilled opponent will know you're doing this. Regardless, a first turn Duress can either rip their protection if you have FoW, rip their integral nutty combo piece such as LED, or rip their Krosan Grip to pave the way for your Counterbalance. Ad Nauseam destroys the Stifle plan anyway because they use it to find their Duress/REB/Chant and go off extremely protected.

On Confidant, dropping to low blue cards is a risk I'm willing to take to play a bomb like Bob. It's a must answer card that will win you more games then you'll lose to not having a blue card to pitch to FoW in the early going, and will certainly win you more games than Counterspell. ITF has so many answers that there are few cards you absolutely cannot let resolve, with Counterbalance being right up there.

With 14 cards with a CC of 3+ and 7 fetchlands, I'd think that your opponent would welcome Dark Confidant. Yes, of course you have access to some library manipulation--but you're asking it to do an awful lot, especially before you can get Top up and running.

If your testing shows that it works, then so be it--but on paper, I'd hesitate to run Dark Confidant over other options.

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Originally Posted by zer0style

So if what I'm getting is that you're saying that this deck needs to apply more pressure than just sit with countertop in play, why would you remove one of it's best threats, Shackles?
Just want to know your reasoning for it :)

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Because Shackles is miserable before turn 800,000, at which point you win anyways. Recur Witness into recur Deed, or just recur EE, blow all their stuff up, recur Cbalance if you had to nuke that as well, attack with Witness, then Witness, then Witness and Oracle, then Witness and Oracle and Goyf. Shackles is very simply unnecessary and a mull in the stage of the game where you're the most vulnerable.

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Originally Posted by ansset

Because Shackles is miserable before turn 800,000, at which point you win anyways. Recur Witness into recur Deed, or just recur EE, blow all their stuff up, recur Cbalance if you had to nuke that as well, attack with Witness, then Witness, then Witness and Oracle, then Witness and Oracle and Goyf. Shackles is very simply unnecessary and a mull in the stage of the game where you're the most vulnerable.

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But Shackles can apply pressure. Also, Deed + Witness is expensive. Shackles also helps in trouble situations where you need a blocker so you steal a Goyf.