[Deck] Zoo

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

At hungryLIKEALION : Lightning Helix is great in the mirror, but in general, its fairly weak, You would would rather have a 1cc removal spell against most matchups. And dont run swords in the main, it runs quite contrary to your overall strategy.

Understand that teeg and 1 cannonist are much much less than what would be needed to effectively combo counter . You are much better off solidifying your CB matchup then devote slots to something that will beat you anway. I would also concur that Clasm is not necessary, even to beat goblins. You simply have too much removal for them, and every creature you play is bigger. The one matchup that can effectively be shored up without loosing too much would be GY based decks. Somethink like this might be worth a try:

3 Grip
2 REB
2 STP (4 path main)
2 Shusher
1 PoP (assuming 2 main)
1 Jitte (one main)
4 Crypt


Even when that new trap comes out I still wouldn't play it. Reanimator doesnt really put more than one or 2 cards in the gy at once, so for the most part the trap is limited to ichorid.

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Please don't talk to me like I'm a scrub. I've been playing this deck for a long time, and my card choices are all made for a reason.

Lightning Helix is extremely powerful. When they print another 1cc 3dmg instant, I'll consider cutting helix, until then, I'll keep my 12 instant speed removal spells. To me, being an instant is that important. In addition, helix has trememdous synergy with Sylvan Library, which I like to draw with very aggressively. The only spell that would replace Helix is obviously chain lightning, but if I was going to run Chain Lightning I'd run it in addition to Helix and play 12 burns/16 removals.

As for swords vs path, we've had this argument in this thread 8 million times and it really doesn't need to be had again. In my previous tournament, as detailed here I made the judgment call to run Swords over Path, which is what I normally run, based on the metagame I saw before the tournament, which consisted largely of goblins and elves. I did not want to give people a land for their goblin lackeys or priests of titania, so I played swords instead. And it was very good, even against goyf decks. This weekend I spent saturday night at my girlfriend's house and didn't go home before the tournament, so I just brought the deck as it was configured for the previous tournament, meaning swords still over path. Once again, it was fine all day. Not as good as it was last month, and I probably would have switched back to path this tournament if I had the chance, but it was not a substantial difference either way. I've played plenty of games with this deck with both W removal spells, and they each have their place, depending on the given metagame.

Gaddock Teeg is not there to battle combo, he is there to battle Engineered Explosives and other bomby control cards that people play in my meta. The canonist is there because I can also bring in teeg for combo but I don't want to bring in four teegs since he's legendary. You're right in that 4 cards will not magically make the combo matchup good, but you're wrong about Teeg not having his uses.

Once again, please don't talk to me like I'm a scrub who doesn't know what he's doing. I know why I put the cards I did in my deck, and they're all there for very good reasons.

Edit//And as for solidifying the CB matchup, I'm 11-2 against CB this year in tournaments. I solidify that matchup by playing well, not by bringing in 10 cards. If you don't play like a retard, CB is a very easy matchup.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

Please don't talk to me like I'm a scrub. I've been playing this deck for a long time, and my card choices are all made for a reason.

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You're starting to act like yours truly. Haha.

@Everyone else: STP seems like a fine addition to the sideboard. I've never fucking thought of it before, and idk why because I've advocated both cards. Meh. I personally just sacrifice the combo matchup all together, your answers are too slow, and they can still Chant you on your turn 2 anyway, so i don't see the point wasting board slots. I just hope to get well aimed Lightning Helix and burn pretty much. I'm also thinking about cutting Needle from my board as well, but it helps against so much shit.

I've gotta admit, I'm pretty disappointed that we didn't really get any new playable cards from Zendikar. I guess I shouldn't complain too much after we got Wild Nacatl, Wooly Thoctar, Knight of the Reliquary, and Qasali Pridemage over the last year, but still. Would be nice to get something. :(

Arid Mesa. I win :P But yeah, it is unfortunate, though we got so much in the last year to make this a DTB, so I really can't complain either.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

I've gotta admit, I'm pretty disappointed that we didn't really get any new playable cards from Zendikar. I guess I shouldn't complain too much after we got Wild Nacatl, Wooly Thoctar, Knight of the Reliquary, and Qasali Pridemage over the last year, but still. Would be nice to get something. :(

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You forget to mention path to exile.


During testing I found the ichorid match-up quite problematic, specially postboard ancestor's chosen are a real pain. The dredgedeck sees some more play these day (paired against it twice and usually makes up 10-15% of the metagame). I'm not into adding dedicated hatecards jet. But some general advice would be awesome.

My current list is fairly standard, with KOTR, lighting helix and without Jitte. I prefer the helix because the extra life swing is sweet against other agro decks. My sideboard is:
- 3 gaddock teeg
- 3 krosan grips
- 2 pithing needle
- 3 volcanic fallout
- 1 path to exile (3 main and the 4th copy might move main as well)
- 3 free slots (which will become 2 swords, 1 needle OR 3 reb's)

My current sideboard strategy against ichorid is:
-3 pridemage
-2 fireblast
-2 price of progress

+3 gaddock
+3 fallout
+1 path to exile

Yeah, Ichorid is not a good matchup. I used to play Mogg Fanatic before the M10 rules instead of Kird Ape, so I never really had a problem with it then, but now it's a lot rougher without him. I'm still trying to figure out what to do about it, but I believe it's correct to bring in some mixture of REBs and Gaddock Teegs if you've got 'em. Just try to leave mana open to burn your own guys or lavamancer suicide, whenever they're about to get a big stack of zombies. ;\

Edit//Obligatory bragging for getting the 1337th post.

I used to side in REB but they were quite unimpressive, since ichorid only has breakthrough as the usually board out deep analyses.

Gaddock is quite useful against them by denying access to dread return (and sometimes breakthrough as well). My biggest problem is the big live swing they get with the chosen: usually gaining 30 or more life and having a nasty creature in play. After the chose i just get beaten down by small armies of zombies and horror's.

An other card that get's boarded in against zoo is tireless tribe; this guys is quite annoying against most of the zoo guys as well. And then I forgot to mention firestorm. If you take Parcher's sideboarding as an example:

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Originally Posted by Parcher

Goyf Sligh/Zoo: G2: -2 DA, -4 LED, -3 Unmask, -1 Hypno
+1 Chosen, +3 Grudge, +2 Tribe, +3 Firestorm, +1 City (if Burn, switch Unmasks for Firestorms)

G3: -1 DA, -1 Ichorid
+1 Unmask, +1 Chosen

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So you see; dredge has some powerful cards to bring in against zoo. Which makes the match even harder.

To be honest this weekend was the first time I played the matchup for months. I sided out 2 KoTRs, 2 Libraries, 2 Jittes and 2 Pridemages for 4 Needles, 3 Teegs, and 1 Canonist. Teeg was great, but not enough to prevent me from getting stomped anyway. I think without some dedicated anti-dredge cards, the matchup is pretty close to unwinnable.

http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1253814948780.jpg

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

I sided out 2 KoTRs, 2 Libraries, 2 Jittes and 2 Pridemages for 4 Needles, 3 Teegs, and 1 Canonist.

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Canonist is of absolutely no use. A Pridemage can at least be sacrificed to kill your own Needle to remove Bridges if needed.

And any match-up against Ichorid is always winnable, because Ichorid tends to blow up into its owner's face every once in a while. Funny stuff :smile:.

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Originally Posted by Skeggi

Canonist is of absolutely no use. A Pridemage can at least be sacrificed to kill your own Needle to remove Bridges if needed.

And any match-up against Ichorid is always winnable, because Ichorid tends to blow up into its owner's face every once in a while. Funny stuff :smile:.

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Why is Canonist of no use? They can't combo out with it on the field. ;\

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

Why is Canonist of no use? They can't combo out with it on the field. ;\

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By combo out, do you mean play a single Dread Return and kill you? They can easily operate with only one spell per turn. It might slightly annoy them when they want to use multiple therapies in one turn, but that's about all I can see it doing.

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Originally Posted by Goblin Snowman

By combo out, do you mean play a single Dread Return and kill you? They can easily operate with only one spell per turn. It might slightly annoy them when they want to use multiple therapies in one turn, but that's about all I can see it doing.

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Also doesnt stop Ichorid from coming into play and leaving play [and zombie tokens come into play].

I can only say I've played against any Ichorid build in a tournament setting 3 times, and I've never won the round. I've won a game, then just got punted, with Teeg and Jitte active >.<

I hate that deck, it's not playing magic in my opinion.

Well, I know when I played against the deck last weekend, he was playing like 8 spells per turn, and having canonist down would have been pretty sweet I think. Even if it wouldn't have been GREAT, it would have at least been decent.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

Well, I know when I played against the deck last weekend, he was playing like 8 spells per turn, and having canonist down would have been pretty sweet I think. Even if it wouldn't have been GREAT, it would have at least been decent.

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I really haven't been able to think up a turn where Ichorid would ever play more than 3 or 4 spells (normally they might play 1 or none), even with a god hand. Even then it usually involves LED... so Cannonist could MAYBE (probably not) slow them down 1 turn?

Either you're crazy exaggerating or you are counting things like Bridge & Narcomeba triggers as spells or you were playing against a different deck...

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Originally Posted by RogueMTG

I really haven't been able to think up a turn where Ichorid would ever play more than 3 or 4 spells (normally they might play 1 or none), even with a god hand. Even then it usually involves LED... so Cannonist could MAYBE (probably not) slow them down 1 turn?

Either you're crazy exaggerating or you are counting things like Bridge & Narcomeba triggers as spells or you were playing against a different deck...

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I died to a Double Cabal (3 spells cast), Dread Return for Eternal Witness, Breakthrough for 0, Dread Return Zealot the other day. That's 6 spells. Not that Canonist is good, but that was 6 spells in one turn.

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Originally Posted by CorpT

I died to a Double Cabal (3 spells cast), Dread Return for Eternal Witness, Breakthrough for 0, Dread Return Zealot the other day. That's 6 spells. Not that Canonist is good, but that was 6 spells in one turn.

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:eek: That's pretty cool. (Not for you, but in general.)

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Originally Posted by CorpT

I died to a Double Cabal (3 spells cast), Dread Return for Eternal Witness, Breakthrough for 0, Dread Return Zealot the other day. That's 6 spells. Not that Canonist is good, but that was 6 spells in one turn.

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Three of the four games I plalyed against the guy went like that, except with deep analyses too.

I'm not saying Canonist would be the card I want to side in against dredge, but it's on my sb and I figured it would be better than a qasali pridemage. Even if it just buys one turn, it's possible I could remove a few bridges or something. Either way, it's like fighting a rhino and I have a choice between a butter knife and a letter opener. Neither one is actually gonna kill the rhino, but you pick the one you think gives you the best chance. Next time I'll pack an AK-47 (Tormod's Crypt).

I have extensive playtesting experience against ichorid, since my roommate plays the deck and we often just play all the time, both sideboarded and not. I tend to win matches 60/40 but they are long, involved games.

They do, indeed, tend to play multiple spells a turn, particularly, as some have mentioned, Cabal Therapy. Often, as well, they'll dread return eternal witness or cephalid sage, both of which imply a continuation of spells played.

That being said, cannonist isn't something I would side in for two reasons; there are better cards to side in, and it goes both ways, preventing you from playing more than one spell a turn as well (this isn't too terribly game-breaking, but it can certainly affect things unfavorably for you (no bolt+fireblast for the last 7 life, for instance).

I'll try to impart some wisdom I've found as far as sideboarding vs Ichorid is concerned if it can help people. First and foremost, no matter what you do, Ichorid can just up and win on turn 1 or 2 on the play if they are lucky, and this is just something that happens. Luck of the draw, say what you will, but it's something to keep in mind and don't get too frustrated! This is similar to ANT/TES, etc and the reason why many choose to ignore the matchup for SB purposes entirely, and depending on your meta that might be prudent.

*Keep those Pridemages in! They will board in needles and sometimes you can snatch their LED away from them at the perfect moment.
*If you do the stp in sb thing, side those baby's in! Ichorid is the main target here, on the upkeep. Also useful in a pinch to remove/kill the 3rd creature on the draw step after a narco. Keeping them off 3 creatures is integral!
*Tormod's crypt goes in and knowing when to use it is quite important. Many people use Relic now (not so much zoo since it hurts you too), but it's not as good as crypt vs ichorid since your mana is so very important during the first few turns. Keeping a mana open for the upkeep path or whatever what have you is crucial while also having a clock.
*Teeg is solid and he must be bounced, so this sometimes forces them to go into topdeck mode looking for a chain of vapor. Slow rolling with ichorids isn't so great vs Zoo due to pte and the like unless you are drawing like ass.

Notes:
Keep them off three creatures is the name of the game. Burn your own dudes or pop a crypt/relic when they get a bridge. Exile ichorids at almost every chance! Always be very aware of the contents of their graveyard. Cabal Therapy and Bridge means dread return is just around the corner. They will certainly DR an Ancestor's Chosen even if they don't have bridges or tokens just to halve your clock. Playing against Ichorid is an exciting and interactive matchup and I really enjoy it over other combo decks because aside from the 'oops I win, hurr' moments on turn 1 or 2, you actually get to play the game instead of watching a ANT or TES player play with himself for a few minutes before saying, "Good game, your taiga -> nacatl was a good play, but I guess I just won the game right after that haha, loser."

EDIT: way to go, Volt, you say my whole post in 2 lines T_T

I've had pretty good success against Ichorid. I just side in 3 or 4 Crypts and play carefully. Get 1 or 2 threats on the board, then always keep some mana open for Path or burn. You have to be prepared to burn your own dudes during your opponent's draw step to get rid of Bridges, if need be.

EDIT: ninja'd

EDIT 2: Forgot to mention, 'clasms are good to SB in against Ichorid, too.

Since im still playing 5C, im siding Yixlid Jailer :rolleyes:

So maybe the guy I played against just got really lucky, but every game he would cast 2+ Cabal Therapies by turn 2 and take out all the removal I had in hand. It seemed like the only chance I had to win was to topdeck into removal, which is why I sided in the canonist, cuz in theory he would be able to stall a turn or two before I get comboed out and it would give me an extra draw to hit some removal. That's the theory I was going by.

But like I said, butter knives to AK 47. I'm bringing back the crypts.

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

Since im still playing 5C, im siding Yixlid Jailer :rolleyes:

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Do you actually use any blue cards?? I'm a little curious what your list looks like...

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

Since im still playing 5C, im siding Yixlid Jailer :rolleyes:

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Yay 5 color. I'm actually going back to five color, because I miss my confidants oh so dearly. That, and I finally finished my playset so I have even more incentive to use them.

Random thing I was wondering about using in the 5 color builds was a 1x Volrath's Stronghold (In addition to other lands, and with 2x Knight of the Reliquary) Very minorly it helps reach the CMCs of things with colorless(I'm looking at you grip). However, most importantly it seems like its recursion could win us the game against anything unequipped to deal with it. It's kind of strange, but I think it could have some merit. People already run three drops, and while the land is not as aggressive it can go the distance. I think since in 5c we already are planning for a "longer" game, so how "slow" the land is is probably not that much of an issue. Just a thought.

EDIT: On blue cards, in my build I have blue mostly for tribal flames, but I also am trying 3 mind harnesses in the board. No testing yet, but the card seems really good for us.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

Yay 5 color. I'm actually going back to five color, because I miss my confidants oh so dearly. That, and I finally finished my playset so I have even more incentive to use them.

Random thing I was wondering about using in the 5 color builds was a 1x Volrath's Stronghold (With 2x Knight of the Reliquary.) It helps us a little bit in the mana deparment, mostly by making our sideboard easier to cast(I'm looking at you grip). However, most importantly it seems like its recursion could win us the game against anything unequipped to deal with it. It's kind of strange, but I think it could have some merit. I think since in 5c we already are planning for a "longer" game, so how "slow" the land is is probably not that much of an issue. Just a thought.

EDIT: On blue cards, in my build I have blue mostly for tribal flames, but I also am trying 3 mind harnesses in the board. No testing yet, but the card seems really good for us.

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How does a colorless producing land make grip easier to cast?

Other than that, I do agree with most of what you've said.

It's the whole getting to 3 mana consistently. Sometimes I have grip without enough mana to play it.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

It's the whole getting to 3 mana consistently. Sometimes I have grip without enough mana to play it.

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Ohh, I see. You mean that you have the normal amount of land PLUS stronghold, and in that way, in that you have extra land in the deck, it's easier to cast Grip. We were confused since it's just as wasteable as your duals, adds colorless, and taps for one so it was hard to see in what way it helped cast a 3-mana green spell above what having any other land in the deck in play would.

It's really not the main point in all, in fact it's such a small point that I debating about even mentioning it in my original post. I just like to consider as much as possible when considering something.

I know that MWS is not very accurate with it's draw engine and you are going to be playing some exotic builds, but I don't get to tournaments often, so it's all i got. I've looked at my SB lately:
1 jitte (1 main)
3 PoP
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Choke
3 Grip
2 ReB
2 StP

Is landstill the threat it used to be? I guess that's why I run the REB, Shusher, choke, and PoP.

Ichorid has been problematic for me. I have played against and beat it in tournament play, but that was before the dread return tech was added. I'm thinking the Stp and the 2nd jitte here.

Mirror is going to be popular with the deck taking off the way it has. I'd say -2 fireblast +2 stp here maybe fit in the jitte #2.

Merfolk is a neat deck. I like to choke it, add REB too.

Countertop (booo). Choke, shusher, and stp.

Am i off base with my thoughts here and am I covering enough builds with my Sb. In the testing I have done, the list looks rounded.

How many people are side boring Price of Progress, and what decks are you seeing more of that make you take it out of the main?

Also, what do you need to see in an opening hand to make it worth keeping?

I switch it between side and main depending on the meta. If there's a lot of landstill or counter top I'll play it main, if it's a lot of merfolk and goblins I'll put it in the side.

A good opening hand is defined by what matchup you're playing against. I'll go ahead and come up with some examples, say what I'd do with them, and then analyze which match ups it is appropriate to keep it for. I'll draw them all from my deck for authenticity.

Hand 1:
Grim Lavamancer
Tarmogoyf
Figure of Destiny
Knight of the Reliquary
Fireblast
Windswept Heath
Savannah
General Verdict:Keep
This is a somewhat sketchy hand, but I'd feel comfortable playing it against most decks in the format. If you don't know what they're playing, you might be a little weary about wasteland, but you do have two one drops and a good chance to draw a third land. You'll need to draw a third land to cast the Fireblast in the hand, but in a deck with 21 lands that's usually not a huge issue.
DTBs I'd keep this hand against;
Landstill
Mirror
Countertop

DTBs I'd consider this hand against;
Goblins
Merfolk
Tempo Thresh

DTBs I'd mull this hand against;
ANT

Hand 2:
Sylvan Library
Knight of the Reliquary
Windswept Heath
Windswept Heath
Qasali Pridemage
Fireblast
Taiga
General Verdict:Mull
This hand is going to be far too slow against pretty much any deck in the format. I'm tempted to say keep for the mirror match since you have both library and knight to overpower them with, but really, if they play a one and two drop your qasali pridemage is gonna be way too slow to hold down the fort. I'd mull this against anything.

Hand 3:
Tarmogoyf
Figure of Destiny
Lightning Helix
Price of Progress
Taiga
Wooded Foothills
Plains
This is a pretty good hand. It's got a one drop that you can play off a basic, a green dual to play tarmogoyf off of through stifle on turn 2, and two good burn spells, with a third land to protect from wasteland. I'd keep this hand versus everything. Even game 1 against ANT, you can't ask for too much better without being really greedy.

Hand 4:
Qasali Pridemage
Path to Exile
Qasali Pridemage
Tarmogoyf
Kird Ape
Horizon Canopy
Taiga
General Verdict:Keep
This is a very good hand. You can make a turn one ape, turn two pridemage, turn three pridemage, and have a tarmogoyf to follow up with after you get your exalted beats on. You also have a path for their first goyf to ensure you can beat unimpeded. With a little luck you'll draw into burn, and you can cash your canopy in for another card if you hit more lands. Once again, I'd keep this against any deck in the DTB.

Hand 5:
Lightning Bolt
Lightning Bolt
Taiga
Wild Nacatl
Wild Nacatl
Fireblast
Plateau
General Verdict:Keep
This hand is beautiful. Aside from being a self contained third turn kill if they deal any damage to themselves, this hand is fast, has removal, and is brutally efficient. Assuming you draw ANY gas off the top, you should be able to win this game. Once again, keep against everybody.

So yeah, that's a pretty general overview. For me, the most important things to consider when determining whether or not you can keep a hand looks like this;

Wild Nacatls
Tarmogoyfs
Burn
Other one and two drops
Lands
Swords effects

The more nacatls and goyfs you have, the more likely you tend to be to win. If you don't have any nacatls or goyfs, you should have multiple other ones and two drops. If you don't have any one drops, the hand should at least have a 1cc removal spell and at least one tarmogoyf to consider keeping it. When playing against combo, you shift the list to 1 drops being the most important, followed by burn. If 4 cards of the hand do not contribute to a turn 3/4 kill (I.E. Lands, Library, KoTRs, Swords/Path) you mull it.

I hope this helps. :)

I think price started to fall out of the main as I needed more and more red, forcing me to pull more of my duals out through fetches. Then when I go to cast a PoP I was stinging myself for the same if not more than my opponent. It was getting to the point where I didn't want to see it unless it was with a fireblast.

The arguement could be made I'm sure, that Pop is too powerful and the life loss doesn't matter. I submit that the card was becoming situational and would sit in hand for a few turns until it could deal a finishing blow. In that case I would rather have something else that's going to have an immediate impact on the board.

The card is too good not to be played and pairs very well with a shusher and a fireblast. Against landstill, it can single handedly win you the game. That's reason enough for me to have it around.

I moved the Prices to the board once Merfolk and the mirror became major metagame concerns. The card is practically dead weight in both matchups.

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Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely

I moved the Prices to the board once Merfolk and the mirror became major metagame concerns. The card is practically dead weight in both matchups.

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Really? Why?

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Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Really? Why?

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Because if you are losing it wont win you the game. Also, in other matchups you are willing to trade 4-6 of your own life for a bunch of theirs. Against zoo tho, they can burn you out and if they have been beating on you, it doesnt hit creatures.

Question:
What cards in a Goblin deck do Zoo hate to see sided?
Pyroknesis? Perish? Relic of Progenitus? Other?

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Question:
What cards in a Goblin deck do Zoo hate to see sided?
Pyroknesis? Perish? Relic of Progenitus? Other?

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Pyrokinesis is the best card they have against us, but it's usually only a 1 for 2 for the goblins player and it's pretty easy to shurg off. Perish might be a little better if you're running the black splash, but it's not that hard to play around since the deck has multiple non-green creatures it can play to avoid over extension.

Relic's usually not more than a minor annoyance. They shrink goyf once, then you crack a fetch and bolt a goblin and it's back to 3/4.

I know this has been brought up and has been dismissed before, but seeing that a lot of people are talking about Steppe Lynx as being awesome in extended Zoo I was wondering if anyone has been testing it in Legacy. Particularly in builds running 12+fetches it seems like it might be better than Kird Ape (whom it seems most people consider marginal and rightfully so) since it can bang for 4 a turn in the first few turns but becomes totally dead in the mid to lategame. Overall the Lynx seems more suited to extremely aggresive strategies and most lists around here tend to be geared more and more towards the midgame...

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Originally Posted by mackaber

I know this has been brought up and has been dismissed before, but seeing that a lot of people are talking about Steppe Lynx as being awesome in extended Zoo I was wondering if anyone has been testing it in Legacy. Particularly in builds running 12+fetches it seems like it might be better than Kird Ape (whom it seems most people consider marginal and rightfully so) since it can bang for 4 a turn in the first few turns but becomes totally dead in the mid to lategame. Overall the Lynx seems more suited to extremely aggresive strategies and most lists around here tend to be geared more and more towards the midgame...

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The fact is that you're assuming that you're going to have extra fetchlands to use,and that it's going to actually matter. Even though you're playing 9+ fetchlands, you're probably not going to get more than two in a hand. Thus, only in that scenario lynx is any sort of good, but in almost every case he just sucks. I did the math before, and on average he's still worse than Isamaru, and Isamaru sucks. Plus, he hurts your aggro matchup.