[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by Sims

We'll have to just see what we see. I'm going to keep playing the way I have been until the card hits the point that every deck runs 4. I still am unsure that is even going to be the case, but if it happens then I'll adapt accordingly and begin testing my options. One of those options might entail going to a pure U/B manabase and dropping tribe in favor of LED or a 2cc outlet It might entail adopting a slower old-extended style dredge deck. It might entail 4 copies of Mental Misstep of my own. It might entail doing absolutely nothing and plowin through people anyways.

At the moment I just think it's too early to tell if the majority of people are Overreacting and Overhyping... or if I'm wrong and just not seeing the same issue everyone else is. To me, it just seems asinine to try and find room for 4 maindeck Missteps just to counter other players Missteps. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong and will eat those words and end up doing it anyways.

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No, really, you are right to think that maybe nothing happens, and we don't have to adapt. You really are. But don't blame me for looking forward the possible changes for the case this scenario end up happening. And well, at least Tempo decks are going to maindeck the card, because it fits their strategy so well. I mean, was I playing Team America, I would, wouldn't you?

I like the idea of discussing options for a possible scenario, even if it doesn't happen, I will have it ready when/if it does.

Of course some of the options are obvious, some are not that much... maybe some new idea shows off that way, and we can go back to the usual useless maindeck DR-target discussion, or whether LED dredge is faster but got less consisntancy than LEDless one. It's even possible that, in tests, we end up discovering that the card helps nothing even when countering our discard outlets, since we have around 20! and that card is just 4 more counters that they will have to deal with when the opposing guy run no 1cc spells.

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Originally Posted by Gui

No, really, you are right to think that maybe nothing happens, and we don't have to adapt. You really are. But don't blame me for looking forward the possible changes for the case this scenario end up happening. And well, at least Tempo decks are going to maindeck the card, because it fits their strategy so well. I mean, was I playing Team America, I would, wouldn't you?

I like the idea of discussing options for a possible scenario, even if it doesn't happen, I will have it ready when/if it does.

Of course some of the options are obvious, some are not that much... maybe some new idea shows off that way, and we can go back to the usual useless maindeck DR-target discussion, or whether LED dredge is faster but got less consisntancy than LEDless one. It's even possible that, in tests, we end up discovering that the card helps nothing even when countering our discard outlets, since we have around 20! and that card is just 4 more counters that they will have to deal with when the opposing guy run no 1cc spells.

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My appologies, I didn't mean to offend you or come off as saying we don't need to do any investigating or anything as yet. You are right to do so and it never hurts to be prepared and I'm not trying to curb any discussion on what could or should be done in the event that misstep becomes the new poster child for the format. I at the moment am currently still very dubious on the card or if it will have any effect on us at all.

However, in an effort to be constructive: If Misstep turns into this super 4x in every deck I could see one of two things happening: The format brushes it off, or the format slows down.

We could try a 2cc discard outlet and see how bad it hurts us. The Faerie is arguably the best 2cc outlet, although I suppose some argument could be made for Zombie Infestation as being right in contention. It would slow us down a hair and force us to look for hands with more lands and the ability of actually casting 2cc spells regularly. This might entail more land, but would likely turn off the concept of running Paradise. You could probably take this build pure U/B but i'd hate to lose Ray/Claim/Grudge/Firestorm out of the board. Maybe looking to the old extended lists that didn't have the speed of Breakthrough and Ichorids for inspiration as to ways we could win and be a little more resilient?

Another option is kind of a known quantity: Play LED and just try to blow out and be faster than the misstep decks. Who cares if they counter our turn 1 Imp/Tribe if we're just going to drop LED, break it, and flash back Deep Analysis?

Outside of the above, the only option I could think of is just holding firm as we have a plethora of ways to get things into our graveyards. Granted almost all of them can be coutnered by Misstep: but that's 4 missteps vs. 16 easy outlets + 4 breakthroughs in a pinch + Firestorm out of the board + the potential to just start the game DDD.

No offense taken at all. Just justifying myself for discussing the "hype", that's all.

This last argument is what I think the most. I think that, since we run a lot of ways of throwing things into graveyard (20 with therapy), they would have to be able to counter 2-per-game to consistantly hate our discard. That would mean they would be slow, since running a lot of counters.

The effect of the card, thus, would be more dangerous in aggro decks, able to put pressure while countering our stuff... there, they can also kill our permanent discard and counter our blue draw/discard. In these matches we shall have trouble, specially trying to recover from Tormods in the meantime.

I think the best 2cc discard outlet would be between Zombie Infestation, for it's not easily removed, and Aquamoeba, that can be cast out of 2 cephalid (that doesn't happen much, tho.)

Granted, Firestorm, at least from board, seems the solid option. ^^

I did forget about Aquameoba. I tend to forget that guy exists after the nerf bat hit him with the M10 combat rules change.

I suppose that makes the list of potential 2cc discard outlets Oona's Prowler, Aquameoba, and Zombie Infestation.

That's a tough call. Prowler I like cause it can get in there for 1 or 3 in the air, but the fact that it's a discard outlet for your opponent could bite us in the mirror match. Zombie Infestation is probably still the best by being hard to remove and making dudes whenever we pitch dredgers. However, the one thing I can tell immediately that i'm not going to like about Infestation is that when I'm trying to play around Crypt I might give up too much having to pitch 2 cards to it. I guess we'll find out how that plays out when i get to testing it more.

Dunno. Testing would tell.

what do you guys think of Gitaxian Probe ? i think it could find a place in dredge... helps you know when to go off, has good synergy with cabal therapy, can be free to cast and draws you a card.

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Originally Posted by Kaslan

what do you guys think of Gitaxian Probe ? i think it could find a place in dredge... helps you know when to go off, has good synergy with cabal therapy, can be free to cast and draws you a card.

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I can't say I'd hold my breath. The interaction with Therapy is cute, but we're not playing Dump Truck. Really the card would be here as pay 2 life, dredge. But That effect doesn't seem strong enough to justify trying to squeeze it in to an already really tight list.

Probably not going to happen, though i'd love to be proved wrong.

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Originally Posted by Sims

I can't say I'd hold my breath. The interaction with Therapy is cute, but we're not playing Dump Truck. Really the card would be here as pay 2 life, dredge. But That effect doesn't seem strong enough to justify trying to squeeze it in to an already really tight list.

Probably not going to happen, though i'd love to be proved wrong.

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you are probably right. but for the ppl that wanted to play Street Wraith that card is 100% better

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Originally Posted by Kaslan

you are probably right. but for the ppl that wanted to play Street Wraith that card is 100% better

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Yes and no. Gitaxian probe does allow us to look at the opponents hand and set up therapies quite well, which is a definite plus. But it's a sorcery, so it can only be done on our turn. But the Phyrexian mana means we could always use it as a peek if we need to without paying 2 life.

Street Wraith has a few things going for it over probe. Cycling being done at instant speed could have some corner cases where it matters, but it also leaves a black creature in your yard for ichorid, where probe does not.

Either way, they both essentially do the same thing: Pay 2 life, dredge. But it just doesn't seem strong enough in an already cramped list.

Isn't the best way to fight Misstep is pack more 1cmc discard outlets than to shift to 2cmc discard outlets and slowing the deck by yet another 1-2 turns to get stomped over?

I think people don't quite understand that Misstep is going to be a hindrance for Dredge, but if you fight Missteps by shifting your curve, you are no probably going to lose more matchups than ever before due to the loss of speed, not to mention losing to Misstep decks not drawing Missteps when you could have led off with a 1cmc discard outlet and won the game.

If anything, it's to bring back the LED builds for an additional +4 discard outlets (matchig their +4 Missteps) which grants an even faster speed, rather than shifting to 2cmc discard outlets (i.e. dredging on turn 3 and critical mass on turn 5 is awefully bad in Legacy).

Another solution, play +4 Entombs to increase your +4 1cmc discard outlets (matching their +4 Missteps). I think the solution to misstep is definitely not increasing the mana curve, but it's the same way as how decks fight Wastelands i.e. play more dual lands instead of less duals.

Only way to know for sure will be to test it. As I've said before, I personally don't think misstep is going to be any more of a pain than Force, so having 20 pre-board ways of getting the dredgers to the yard without even considering the DDD plan i'm proably fairly safe from misstep. If it does prove to be hindering, then I'll go from there. The thought process behind 2cc discard outlets is that if Misstep becomes this great deterrent that some are hyping it to be, than legacy as a whole will slow down. If that happens, a 2cc outlet won't be much of a hinderance as it'll keep us in line with where we are compared to the rest of legacy... Or, go the LED route and speed the deck up some. However, I still don't like LEDs as they really put you all in and feel less consistant than the non-LED versions.

You're likely right, but it never hurts to test all possibilities.

If you want a good 2cmc outlet, Tolarian Winds is pretty broken, since it's basically like having LED + Breakthrough in one card, except it doesn't force you to go all in.

But tbh, I think you are still more likely to resolve 1cmc outlets than the 2cmc ones even with MM around.

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Originally Posted by kikoo

If you want a good 2cmc outlet, Tolarian Winds is pretty broken, since it's basically like having LED + Breakthrough in one card, except it doesn't force you to go all in.

But tbh, I think you are still more likely to resolve 1cmc outlets than the 2cmc ones even with MM around.

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totally forgot about Tolarian Wind. that is the best 2cmc !

The problem with 2cc discard outlet, as people must have figured already, is that you are not much likely to have 2 lands most of the games. We would have to tweak our manabase to have to lands more often. With 15 lands (assuming the outlet is blue) we have 88% chance of having 1 land, but only 56% of having 2, in the initial 7. Of course there's a possible draw, but there's a possible mulligan too, so it's more or less that 56%, which is far less likely to happen than 88% (or 77% for 11 rainbows, or 74% for 10 rainbows).

Before testing 2cc outlets IF we end up needing to adjust, I'd try Firestorm maindeck first. Then, maybe, LED. But I agree with the "play even more 1cc stuff" can end up being the right answer, and also agree that we already play a big bunch of them, so, maybe we just keep playing our regular list and go with the Ostrich Algorithm. At least, this will be my first test. xD

"so, maybe we just keep playing our regular list and go with the Ostrich Algorithm. At least, this will be my first test. xD "

:laugh:Definetly made my day! Thats the exact "strategy" I follow with my sideboard atm.
I have cut all Natures Claim for Leyline of Sanctity, which improves the Combo MU, Hates out Trap, Crypt, Spellbomb, Bog and can go randomly in against Burn or something. As far as I tested it I was just amazed. Lets be honest, which deck plays Leyline atm? All of them are more or less random and its definetly worth to accept Leyline as THE hate IMO. I really see no point of running Claim. Every competent deck+player I saw in the last time didnt played Leyline at all. So why not accept it?
The only problem with this is that youll definetly loose games in especially small tourneys where Kitty-Cat XY is packing them, but big tourneys, I wouldnt play it at all in the near future. Loosing to one random deck in the Swiss due to the lack of Leyline is so much better than loosing games to Combo or every other H8 not named Relic of Progenitus.
After all that I came to the conclusion that its not worth running Claim anymore, 1-2 Ray of Revealation is enough to deal with pesky enchantments, combined with Terastodon and Therapy. I hope a lot of players cut their GY-hate for Surgical extraction, Dredge would have its primetime of its life, and maybe then I consider going back to Natures Claim.
Greetings!

Hey brainwasher,

How does your main and sideboard look like?

SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revealation
1 Dread Return
1 Ancestors Chosen
1 Terastodon
1 Realm Razer
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Stalking Vengeance

I am pretty happy with it. After winning game1 (mostly) I usually board Grudges against decks where I am pretty unsure about which H8 they play, expect those who pack Goyfs and KotR because they arent willing to criple themselves with Relics, Leyline just shines against Bog and Crypt(Spellbomb/Trap. Against most other decks where I expect no Relics I board simply Leyline.
Also Leyline comes in against Storm, of course (and also against Belcher which I dont consider a Stormdeck^^).
I can just recommend to play as many games as necessary to understand my statement made above, which is indeed no nonsense. The games where the opponent has Leyline had become so damn rare that its not worth running Claim anymore, I always wondered if this is just me.

When you board-in Leylines, do you mull until you get a leyline? Do you board-in leyline g2 if you don't know what you are expecting, or just grudge, and just board Leyline at a possible g3?

Seriously, why are you guys talking about Misstep when you should be talking about the Blue Chancellor? That card seems incredibly overpowered, considering you can mulligan straight for it and start the game with seven cards in your discard pile for Breakthrough or Threshold for Cephalid Coliseum, that's better than DDD ever was.

To bad that only each opponent puts his first 7 cards to the yard ;). MM doesn't seem to be that strong against us, because at the end of the day it's still just a counter and we should be used to get some of our stuff counterd. And before we go back to Tolarian Winds I'd rather just cast Breakthrough for 2.
@ Brainwasher: I'm running the Leylines since 2 months now and so far I'm pretty happy with them. However usually I only board them as anti hate if my opponent is running blue (so he can hide them from my Therapys with BS). Otherwise I just board in the 4 Grudges and blow there Crypts up.
For ref. my current board:
4 Leyline
4 Grundge
4 Claim
1 Ray
1 Terrastodon
1 Ancestors Choosen

Doh, bad idea to rely on the wording of unofficial spoilers apparently.

Noob question: when shoul I side Ancestor? It seems to me a lame card!

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Originally Posted by Charlatan

Noob question: when shoul I side Ancestor? It seems to me a lame card!

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That's indeed a noob question.
Against: Zoo, Burn, TES, DDfT, Goblins, some Sligh... Against everything that causes you a lot of damage (life loss) in the early game.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Seriously, why are you guys talking about Misstep when you should be talking about the Blue Chancellor? That card seems incredibly overpowered, considering you can mulligan straight for it and start the game with seven cards in your discard pile for Breakthrough or Threshold for Cephalid Coliseum, that's better than DDD ever was.

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Just read the card. There's an OPPONENT factor in the text.

I was retired and lost some dredgs changes/evolutions, so:

Isn't eternal witness played in dredge anymore?

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Originally Posted by Charlatan

Isn't eternal witness played in dredge anymore?

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No, it's just a waste of an important slot.

"No, it's just a waste of an important slot. "

- I think that it depends on your build and especially on LED or LED-less Dredge. In LEDversions I would consider playing it over Sphinx of Lost Truths. Can restore LED's for additional Deep Analysis, pick up Breakthrough/Study with floating Mana or get back a permanent discard outlet or Natures Claim/Firestorm can be a good deal and I really like the flexibility of her. In LED-less, agreed, theres no need/space for it.

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

No, it's just a waste of an important slot.

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Its basically just worse than sun titan.

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Originally Posted by 2nd_lawl

Its basically just worse than sun titan.

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I disagree.

Sun titan doesn't get you breakthrough back. Sun titan doesn't get nature's claim/chain of vapor back to get rid of an ensnaring bridge or moat stopping you.

They serve different purposes depending on the build.

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Originally Posted by 2nd_lawl

Its basically just worse than sun titan.

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I kind of agree with that.
But that is just another start of a DR target discussion...

When you can cast Dread Return targetin' an non-GGTroll-creature it should be "win" or somekind of a lock like Iona, Flame-Kin or Elesh (New Phyrexia). That's just my point of view.
But when you're tapped out, you're opponent wasted your lands than a Witness picking up a Breakthrough is like giving the opponent another turn to act.

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Originally Posted by Sims

I disagree.

Sun titan doesn't get you breakthrough back. Sun titan doesn't get nature's claim/chain of vapor back to get rid of an ensnaring bridge or moat stopping you.

They serve different purposes depending on the build.

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You can just bring back coliseum, which is just as good as breakthrough, but cant be mental mistepped.

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

I kind of agree with that.
But that is just another start of a DR target discussion...

When you can cast Dread Return targetin' an non-GGTroll-creature it should be "win" or somekind of a lock like Iona, Flame-Kin or Elesh (New Phyrexia). That's just my point of view.
But when you're tapped out, you're opponent wasted your lands than a Witness picking up a Breakthrough is like giving the opponent another turn to act.

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I play sun titan instead of sphinx of lost truths, not instead of FKZ. Sun titan does everything sphinx does, but also has alot of corner case applications, and lets you play serenity in your sideboard.

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

I kind of agree with that.
But that is just another start of a DR target discussion...

When you can cast Dread Return targetin' an non-GGTroll-creature it should be "win" or somekind of a lock like Iona, Flame-Kin or Elesh (New Phyrexia). That's just my point of view.
But when you're tapped out, you're opponent wasted your lands than a Witness picking up a Breakthrough is like giving the opponent another turn to act.

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Then why not pick up a land? I don't run witness, heck I don't run any DR targets maindeck outside of Troll and only Zealot and Chosen in my board, but I could see times with Titan i'd rather just get witness and get back the breakthrough or land or claim/grudge/chain/poison of choice. I can see reasons for running both but I don't think either one is good enough. And while cool, i'm not sure how effective running Titan and Serenity is... having to dredge away two 1-of's and still needing time for it to go off seems too cute to be truly effective.

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Originally Posted by Sims

Then why not pick up a land? I don't run witness, heck I don't run any DR targets maindeck outside of Troll and only Zealot and Chosen in my board, but I could see times with Titan i'd rather just get witness and get back the breakthrough or land or claim/grudge/chain/poison of choice. I can see reasons for running both but I don't think either one is good enough. And while cool, i'm not sure how effective running Titan and Serenity is... having to dredge away two 1-of's and still needing time for it to go off seems too cute to be truly effective.

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I don't want to be misunderstood.
I am not running Titan, Witness, Serenity or something like that. Also don't think that this is good.
Titan is weaker than Iona, FKZ, Sphinx... and other MB DR targets, but stronger than Witness^^.

Never said that you did or were running any of the above. Was kind of responding to two posts at once. My bad on that.

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Originally Posted by 2nd_lawl

I play sun titan instead of sphinx of lost truths, not instead of FKZ. Sun titan does everything sphinx does, but also has alot of corner case applications, and lets you play serenity in your sideboard.

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How does it do everything that Sphinx does? Sure if you have an untapped land you can get back a coliseum to draw 3, which assumes you didnt get wastelanded or that your land is tapped because you just cast a breakthrough/careful study,otherwise you need to wait a turn to get back 2 lands, assuming you dont get wastelanded or the Titan gets killed. Plus Sphinx can be dread returned, sacced to Therapy, then dread returned again to go through your whole deck in a single turn.

I think the best way is to just play through misstep. Play the MAX number of discard outlets and we should be ok. In Blue decks, Misstep replaces Daze/Spell Pierce, so their answer density remains the same. We still beat those decks anyway, so it's not a problem IMO. I don't believe dredge has the available slots to do anything about Misstep, we just have to live with it.

Aggro decks that play misstep will benefit, but this reduces their threat level as well, slowing them down. Dredge is unlike other combo because dredge has plenty redundancy. Do you lose to just 1 force? Nope, this isn't belcher, so we shouldn't lose to 1 misstep either. I don't think LEDs are the right call against misstep. Sure you have 4 extra 0cc un-missteppable outlets, but your careful study/breakthrough can still be misstepped.

Playing 2cc spells like Tolarian Winds is also quite bad because this deck just has 15 lands, so it's not going to be easy to consistently get 2 mana sources.

Maybe you are right as the (IMO) good lists play 4 Pimp / Tribe / Careful Study... lowering on this cards is an essential misstake when playing Dredge...

Also, If Mental Misstep will have such an high impact, what about Firestorm as additional outlet? Yep, the costs are additional.
The card isn't that bad, and I played 2 main sometimes in the past, as it is also good against aggro =P

Uhh, you bring back led to flashback deep analysis or a hapless reasearcher. Have you even been paying attention?

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Originally Posted by 2nd_lawl

Uhh, you bring back led to flashback deep analysis or a hapless reasearcher. Have you even been paying attention?

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And if you don't draw deep analysis? What if you have deep anal in hand but no LED? Thats the thing about LED lists, they're very inconsistent. LED lists ideally want to draw LED and go crazy into a Deep Analysis into even more crazy. Point is, to go crazy in the first place, you still need Careful Study/Breakthrough and those are still Missteppable. And regarding preempting Missteps. What? You do know it's a free spell like Force right?

I have LEDs yet I still don't play them, I prefer consistency. Now with Missteps I would say the LED lists are even worse. You need every single discard outlet/draw spell you can afford to play. Wasting slots for fragile combo components seems unwise.

@ Necro, I agree firestorm is a great card. I play the usual Max discard outlets and usually Firestorm fights with Tribe for slots MD.Tribe IMO is a better card when on the play and helps you pitch stuff every turn. Tribe is also great against dudes, similar to Firestorm. I think Firestorm should be played in addition to Tribe and not instead of Tribe in the MD.

Question is what to cut? IMO the cuttable things are the 4th Thug, the 4th Ichorid, the 15th Land or the 2nd Dread Return. If mental misstep Forces us to have more MD discard outlets, I'd cut a Thug and an Ichorid for 2 Firestorms. Actually I've also tested entomb in Dredge. It's honestly a pretty good card to see in your opening hand. I eventually cut it though. Maybe it could make a comeback as an additional discard outlet?

Here is a pick from my deck. Still runing 3 unmask and 1 witness.

http://www.ligamagic.com.br/fotolog/...c6522647c1.jpg

The witness healped a lot when i didnt started with SB in my hand. I bought an IONA, but i'm afraid of running it, i just feel as if I could win with out this creep in the board.

In about 2 months, there is going to happen the qualifiers to the most important brazilian legacy tournament and I have 3 options: Gobbos, Ichorid and Canadian UGR.

In Brazil, there is a very aggro meta. A lot of folks and Zoo...