EE and Terminus can be Stifled.
Supreme Verdict > Geese // therefore Sphere > EE.
Printable View
EE and Terminus can be Stifled.
Supreme Verdict > Geese // therefore Sphere > EE.
Sphere > EE because I can resolve it off opponent's Show&Tell and Exile their Emakrul or Griselbrand, it's all situationally relative man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Basaka
I've had less problems against S&T than RUG (maybe because I run 2 flusterstorms in SB as well as spell pierce + counterspells in MD).
And if you want to argue that EE can be stifled, so can the sphere. Supreme verdict seems like a SBable card, but trying to get 4 mana against RUG can be really hard at times.
Would you guys splash red into U/W Stoneblade for Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast or go straight with Flusterstorm? I'm having a hard time beating Show and Tell decks. My maindeck has 2 Counterspell, 2 Spell Pierce and 4 Force of Will.
show and tell shouldn't be a problem. It hasn't been for me in my testing. Granted Im running esper and discard works wonders.
As stated in my first post, I'm playing U/W Stoneblade. I am not running any discard.Quote:
Originally Posted by csy
Enlighten me. Why would U/W Stoneblade be a viable deck at all? I'd never see my playing a straight UW Control-deck not being Miracle... I mean...without Punishing Fires // Souls/Discard Stoneblade seems like a very very bad deck to be honest....Quote:
Originally Posted by JonhLightning
Greetings
I do not believe discard is what this deck needs in the current metagames. This is why I do not run Esperblade. Now, back to my question, would splashing red for the Blasts be better than using Flusterstorm?Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
1) Discard is not good in the modern metagame? *scrolls up* Hey you did complain about the Show and Tell-MU. I'll tell you a secret = Discard is amazing vs them. Very good vs SneakAttack and amazing vs Omniscience.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonhLightning
2) Splashing Red for Blasts? Meh, maybe for Punishing Fires, but this might be a little harder due to the Dryad being legal soon. I do not see a lot of reasons to splash red in the current metagame. Black makes everything so much better.
Greetings
I think for UW control decks there's currently two ways of going anti-combo. You either go the discard route or go with Counter-Top. REB is mainly good if you are fighting against counterspells or Jaces (meaning if you are RUG) but if you are UW I think you should either have Counterbalance or some discard in your 75. Because if you splash red for REBs and your opponent brings Sneak Attack? Or if he brings Academy Rector?
I do have Counter-Top in my 75. It is really useful against combo and control decks. The REB were meant for extra Counters against Show and Tell because they always seem to have more than I do with all those Cantrips.Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
I don't much like Sphere against Show and Tell really. They are already bringing in REBs, which are all of a sudden live against Sphere as opposed to Oblivion Ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
And why do you feel this way?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonhLightning
I got 3rd at my locals today. Played as follows:
I) 2-1 vs Miracles
II) 2-0 vs TheRock
III) 2-0 vs SneakAttack
IV) ID
Top4:
I) 1-2 vs Doomsday
II) 2-1 vs Canadian Threshold
I really couldnt imagine playing this deck without Black... I mean it gives you Thoughtseize against Combo/Control and Lingering Souls against Aggro/Control....
I played a rather unusual landbase:
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Academy Ruins
With 2 EE MB und 2 SB.
Greetings
If you want to increase your combo matchup running red is not the answer. The answer is black.
Doomsday seems like a good MU. I'm curious how that went. Also, I've been leaning away from Lingering Souls lately. What MU's did you side it in for and how did you like it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
4 EE in the 75 seems pretty intense. Is there a reason for that over splitting between other board wipes or removal?Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
That's a lot of non-blue lands (6/22). I'd probably argue against the Scrubland and the second Plains. The second Academy is there I guess because of the 4 EE's, but it still seems on the risky side. At least Karakas taps for White.
I tested the hybrid list on a 5 round tournament.(2 place with some help :-) )
I played a list like Kopie Spaeth list, with a few changes.
Will these lists discussed here or in the miracle Thread ?
I think it belongs better here ?
Well, that's the whole list I played:
//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Academy Ruins
//Spells
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls
4 Swords to Plowshares
//Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Force of Will
1 Duress
1 Flusterstorm
1 Disenchant
1 Tormod's Crypt
As said, I am pretty confident with my landbase, even though it differs alot from what other players prefer. I think having such a strong Basic-Land-Base is important. Even 2 Plains are pretty often very important. I do not play Karakas as my Vendilion Cliques are in the Sideboard, and I feel like EE+Ruins > Vendilion Clique + Karakas.
@Doomsday-MU. Me and him are among the best players in our town, but he tends to be better by a little percentage. In addition to this I made a game-deciding mistake..which was...pretty bad if I think about the fact, that I face Doomsday all 2 weeks at my smaller locals... I let him discard Ideas Unbound...wtf... No idea if I would have won - but this mistake was unexcuseable.
@Lingering Souls: I think this card is so essential... It even provided a clock in all of the 3 games against Doomsday....
Greetings
But then wouldn't it make me weaker to wasteland? I am currently playing U/W Stoneblade "hybrid" with some miracles card. I'm only running 2 tundras and 9 basics. Having so many basic lands is so good against a lot of decks. Counterbalance in my 75 really helps me against Storm, but doesn't do much against Show and Tell since you never want to tap out once they hit 3 lands. If I was to run black would 2 U-Sea and 1 Scrubland be enough? As I said above, I like basic lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by csy
I'll Just agree with some ppl here.
I'd had playing this deck for 3 sequentially tornments and some hard playtests. Some points imho:
. It needs black;
. in this case, at least 3 lingering souls at 75;
. need 4 FoW. I think 3 fow dont make any sense in a control blade with to many pitcheable cards;
. need karakas, for god. In addition of S&T or reanimate, it bounces thalia and gaddock (little more important even you run EE. In add Jace, Fow, Terminus...) and your own vendilion.
I run too a single vindicate in md.
I strongly disagree on Karakas being mandatory. If I'd play Karakas I'd play 2 of them. A 1of is in a deck without any way to tutor it up way to random, especially when its only needed in specific MUs. How about drawing it vs Storm and not drawing it vs SneakAttack?
4 Force of Will aren't needed aswell. Stoneblade doesnt aim on casting more than a Force each game, because it strictly is Card-Disadvantage, and we can handle nearly all permanents once they landed the game. And..you claim we got alot of blue cards? I'd love to see your list, as I play rather few blue cards. Or medium, but not many for sure.
Greetings
Yup, your second plains is really better than a Karakas against Storm...Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
A one of means you have a 20% chance to draw the card by turn 5, which is increased by your cantrips and fetchlands. Why wouldn't you take the added flexibility? Double plains on the other hand is almost never a necessity.
When thinking over it another time, I think you might be right - Ill give it a shot (again). Still I wouldnt want to cut on the 2 Academy Ruins - as suggested I might cut a Plains...
Greetings
Of course I am right, I use logic and reason. :wink:
Karakas isn't dead against Storm. You can bounce your Cliques to re-use them.
Well that was a rather large piece of shit I posted there. You are right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman82
Sorry.
Greetings
You can also play a 2nd Karakas in the board.
You might reconsider your position, not just because 99% of the player base disagrees with this, and not just because you were knocked out of your last tournament by combo, but because it seems you are missing the point entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
Could you elaborate?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
Place 2, 19 and 22 on GP Ghent only played 3 Force of Will too. Making it 3 out of 4.
Greetings
2nd place at GP Ghent was an Elf combo deck. Are you sure?Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
If you are interested in the 99% bit I can list 297 other decks sporting the full 4 Force from various other Legacy events. But that isn't really relevant, now is it.
I think the burden is on you to substantially validate the claim that one of the (if not the) best cards in the format is not worth including as a 4-of. I see minor, shallow reasoning so far.
Oh sorry, it was listed on the second place in the top8. Obviously it wasn't place two, I am sorry. My fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
You know, Force of Will is, in most Match-Ups not the best card, by far. It's worth it's gold in Combo-MUs. Other than that it's not that great. Getting a Force of Will Dazed can be game-deciding due to the Card-Disadvantage. I for my part see now reason to play the full set of Forces in the MB (1 in Side) in a meta that doesn't warrant it.
Greetings
Tolaria West could tutor for the one-of Karakas, along with Engineered Explosives. Slow, but it'll do the trick when you need it midgame. Also nice for the mirror to side one Ancestral Visions. Tolaria West for that thing and suspend. Four turns later they need a FoW or you win on card advantage (usually).
I personally would never play with less that four FoWs main deck. Simple reason is that you don't want to look rediculous playing blue and still losing to TES and its friends. Modern Blade Control plays very little counters, and of course in the States people are reluctant to play TES or ANT, so you don't get punished all that often, but just wait until you enter Europe. We play unfair decks, you know. :wink:
I think 3 Force in Esper cannot be bad; also proven by many top 8 finishes. You have discard and compared to Miracles you have more redundancy in your threats/answers and don't rely on specific cards to resolve that required setup like Terminus, Entreat or Counterbalance. If you often side out Force of Will what stops you from adapting to configuration the 75 slightly to adapt to the meta.
List I have been brewing:
4 b-storm
4 Force
4 spell pierce
2 Counter spell
4 swords
3 jace 2.0
2 clique
3 snap
4 mystic
1 bskull
1 sword of feast and famine
1 jitte
3 e.e
1 elspeth knight errant
23 Lands
Side:
3 surgical
2 thoughtsieze
2 Wrath of god (going to become supreme veridct)
3 dread of night
1 e.e.
4 duress
Please comment.
Do you know what happens when the blue decks play 3 Force of Will? Sure, they may get a top 8 finish, but they DO NOT WIN. Combo does, as evidenced by GP Ghent where the finals was combo vs. combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
I like to win. And if you do, I would advise playing 4 Force of Will. It's a far more complicated issue than what can be discussed here without a 5000 word essay on the matter.
True story - I once played RUG with 3 FoW. I lost to ANT on turn 1/2 in the match. It was not pleasant.
Playing 3 FOW makes sense if you're expecting a lot of mirrors and aggro decks. It doesn't make sense when you're going into an unknown field with any number of unfair strategies. In either case, having 4 FOW in the 75 is the right call, and a choice as to whether to kick the last copy to the sideboard.
I like what Reid Duke said a while back on his NO RUG videos. Force of Will is a card you want to see in your opening hand, especially playing against an unknown matchup. Even if you open two, you just pitch the other one for the first one. It's never a bad card to have in your opening.
Multiple FoWs in hand allows you to sometimes pitch the other and preserve your more precious blue cards in the future, like in Esper, which relies on its late and mid game a lot more than other decks. Preserving Ponder, Brainstorm, and Snapcasters are huge.
I personally run 3 FOW main and 1 SB -
But I also run 4 extra spell pierce/counterspells main and 2 flusterstorms in the side. I find that usually enough against fast comb.
FoW is a lot less dead against creature decks than Swords to Plowshares is against combo decks. No one talks about running 3 Swords. We are a Brainstorm deck. If you have too many FoW's in your hand, BS them away or pitch them to other Forces. It's not always the best, but it's nice having 4 FoW when your BSing for an out.
It's okay to run less (or no) Forces in a deck like Aggro Bant, where you run a big threat density. It's not okay to run less Forces when you rely on resolving SFM or Jace to win. I would most definitely not go below 4 Force of Will in the maindeck, even if all you are doing is playing against aggro all day. Sure, some more spot removal is going to be better than Force in that matchup, but Force can still counter their removal on your SFM, their Jittes, their Force on your Jace (if playing against something with aggro and blue), etc etc so on and so forth.