True, but I have been playing a mono red main for a long time now. My list is a red main, white side. So this would be a change for me.
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True, but I have been playing a mono red main for a long time now. My list is a red main, white side. So this would be a change for me.
I have no problem believing that. But frankly from what I read here it's been by far the most discussed list for weeks.
Ok so I piloted R/W Painter to a 2nd place finish in a local Legacy tournament where the top prize was a playset of Force of Will. I ended up with a NM Revised Bayou.
Here is the list
Lands:
1 Karakas
1 Great Furnace
2 Plateau
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
Creatures:
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Painter Servant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Goblin Welder
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Magus of the Moon
Spells:
4 Grindstone
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Lotus Petal
4 Blood Moon
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
2 Enlightened Tutor
Sideboard:
4 Firebolt
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Manic Vandal
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Koth of the Hammer
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
My choice of Karakas over the additional fetch was because i was expecting a lot of Reanimator type of decks. I was right as there was 4 of them present.I also played the singleton Lightning Bolt because i didnt have a third Welder.
I lost in the finals to a Miracles. I punted by missing two damage with a Manic Vandal and that was the difference in the game as he hit me with Helm/RIP combo. I didnt take notes as i forgot to bring a life pad.
But i faced the following decks.
BUG Delver x2 (lost to one beat the other) (replayed the one i lost to in the top 8 and beat him 2-1)
Lands (Played in Swiss and again in semis 2-0 both times)
Esper Deathblade (Loss 2-0)
Elves (2-1)
Merfolk (2-0)
If anyone has any additional questions please ask and i will answer them as i can.
Today I played a small local and lost to two Eldrazi decks. As there were quite a bunch of them I am going to test a Singleton Rest in Peace (or possibly a crypt) main instead of the second bridge effect.
Of course it is one thing how I react to my local meta, but what do you guys think about this idea on a more general level?
Does strawberry shortcake still need 2 bridge effects main? Especially in a 3 welder build?
Can't be that bad because there are few decks that it's actually dead against, most top tier decks are either hurt or hampered by RiP.
Edit;
Part three of the primer is up! link
EPIC conclusion to the primer :D Well played, sir ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
Thanks! BUt I like to think that it isn't concluded, merely left off for the time being...
The list of cards and card interactions is definitely something we need to amend over time!
Yeah, for sure :DQuote:
Originally Posted by jandax
But for now, new players can't say, the haven't got answered, some of their questions :D
Hey guys I've been playing IPainter for a couple of weeks and am looking at the White Splash. My main question and forgive me if this has already been answered but why is there 4 Firebolt in the sideboards of these lists? Thanks!
DRS, SFM, Bob, clique, etc.
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The ability to flashback Firebolt and get another use out of it is what makes it a better choice than Lightning Bolt. Its also not too bad if you are playing Faithless Looting as well.
At the moment I run Magma Jet in its place. I can order cards, but they take weeks to arrive here. At this point I like Jet, but I see the point of Firebolt as your SOL lands make flashing it simple.
In a month I may have had a game or two with the bolts tho. Looking forward to it.
I was actually never disappointed with magma jet in mono red. Not running it now, and not sure it has room in Rw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
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I'm going to agree, it's not a deck I would want to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
But I thought it was an interesting approach to running the Painter Grindstone Combo. I just like how creative / surprising people can be.
Anybody else an opinion on this?Quote:
Originally Posted by zangoasyl
PS jandax: You did a really great job with your primer!
Thanks, but it's our primer :cool:
I am not sure that your on the right game plan if you are losing to Eldrazi Decks and your plan is to remove an MD Ensnaring Bridge for an MD Rest in Peace, or Tormod's Crypt.Quote:
Originally Posted by zangoasyl
What is your plan here, and how were you losing?
Ensnaring Bridge isn't as instant win as say Blood Moon vs Jund, but they can't possibly win without first dealing with your Ensnaring Bridge. Unless we are talking unusual Eldrazi decks, then I'd ask why we plan to modify our MD or SB for something that is abnormal. Ensnaring Bridge buys you a lot of time to close the game out.
Ideally I think you would run 2 or more Bridges main, + GY hate so you can buy enough time to 3 card combo them, this would be my plan in the post boarding R/W Enlightened Painter build. In Mono Red I'm not sure you run the 3 card combo since you don't have access to Rest in Peace and Tormod's Crypt is just not as attractive.
Other opinions?
I've never been a fan of three card combos. Therefore I adapted my Mono R list to play to weaknesses in these sorts of matchups. You need to switch up your play style more than cards IMHO.
Another Painter's Servant/Grindstone combo deck brewed in SCG premium article: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28206_AI.html
Interesting take on the cards.
Put in some shortcake training at the LGS today played against Omnitell, MUD and Grixis brew.
Interesting against omni, it is not a familiar MU and I would say I was 50/50. Since it was practice, I was keeping speculative hands just so I could see the interactions. Post board canonist, GY hate and jaya seemed to hold it together. This MU does need more research though.
MUD was pretty easy, I lost when I made some dumb plays but a fast combo hand almost always paid dividends.
The grixis brew folded to a resolved moon. The one game I lost was to a daft call "blue" off painter into a board with a moon and bridge, this turned his REBs on and my moon disappeared allowing him to cast and win. The thing was, there was no need for painter at that time, I could have sat back and waited for my full combo and land to hit him in one turn. Lesson learnt.
For this week's league match, I have a tip-off it's goblins. Looking back over the thread, this appears to be a hard MU but the line is either bridge or fast combo.
Depends on the build of goblins. Mono Red will have a tough time with a fast combo, or with a bridge. The black splash can interact with you via discard, Warren Weirding and Gempalm, so that match is tougher. I'd side out some REBS and not name Blue, because if you do Piledriver becomes unstoppable. Don't forget he pumps up after he's declared an attacker, so he can sneak in if you have a card in hand. Play tight and remember they're going to attack for the kill, so Peacekeeper and bridge from Rw will be your key cards to get into play.
Well the idea was to possibly sneak some first games against Eldrazi. As soon as they counter/bounce&counter Jaya I have no way of winning the first game (assuming a fast enough Griselbrand so that dork beatdown is not possible). Obviously this matchup is one for the bridge to shine, nevertheless I'm planning to cut one as more than one bridge seems redundant for a welder build and the possibility to search for them with the eTutors.Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamGuy
sooo true...Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
I'm still far away from mastering this deck, but I'm on my way... :-)
I actually played Artificer's Intuition at a Jupiter Games event. I think it's pretty bad for Painter, though. There's too much confusion trying to milk the most out of situational artifacts. It's cute and all, but I just feel like a more aggressive approach is the way to go in Legacy today.Quote:
Originally Posted by yugular
i.e. Mono Red-R/w Painter.
Sneak and Show is a combo deck which is trying to minimize dead cards so running bounce main doesn't make sense. So you should not expect any bounce game one. I looked at a few recent Sneak and Show Deck lists and saw there were Zero MD bounce spells, with 1-2 Echoing Truths or Wipe Aways in the SB. So sticking a Bridge game 1, should be game. Additionally don't run Jaya into counter spells, wait till you can counter back or are in a favorable position. There is no need rush and not play around daze (unexpected) or force once you've soft/hard locked them. Does this mean you should run only one Bridge? No, because relying on tutoring for it on time game one is not a good plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by zangoasyl
Other things to note: Use your revokers wisely, they are your second best card against Show and Tell.
Show and Tell is way better for you then Sneak Attack. Show and Tell lets you put something (non-planeswalker) into play without fear from counters at the same time they do, putting a Bridge in this way is strong, and sometimes the thing you can put into play will trump there only way forward due to your earlier game decisions so it's right to let Show and Tell resolve.
Think of Show and Tell as a wierd Rock, Paper, Scissors.
- Bridge Trumps Emrakul and Sneak Attack but not Griselbrand
- Revoker Trumps Griselbrand and Sneak Attack but not Emrakul
Out of the board you need to watch out for Through the Breach, and REBs.
Firstly, Jandax thanks for giving feedback. Always appreciated.
Contrary to my intel, this week's league foe had caught the Death and Taxes bug after white splashing his long serving Goblins deck. I hadn't put too much consideration into this match mainly because I have been playing that deck for over a year and was pretty confident I could go with it if it was on the other side of the table.
My opponent is really happy and explains how joyful it is to him I made the time to play him. He then offers a heartfelt apology for being about to beat me.
Game One, I drop a moon into a fast combo, he does the whole putting library into GY and waits for his draw to extend the hand.
I go to board and whilst firebolt is an obvious starter I am unable to work out what to swap. I don't board and head into game two thinking game one worked so well why change the formula?
Game Two, plains, vial, go. I keep a mana heavy hand with the requisite cards to go again. I drop a stone, he drops a ratchet bomb and commences to tick it up, I drop a painter with a recruiter in hand hoping he will bomb the painter calling blue. EOT he vials in SFM, now I am thinking go SoFaI and he does! In his turn, he o-rings my stone, ticks up the bomb and passes turn. I pull an ETutor, play a fetch and pass. Here he makes a rookie mistake of forging the sword and attempting to equip it,"it falls off" so he tries to untap two of his four tapped plains as take backs. "No, it equips and then falls off" he tries to argue the point and just before I call a judge he realises his mistake and passes turn. EOT, I fetch a plateau and tutor for a 'stone. On my turn, I cast the stone and instead of waiting for me to pay activation he pops the bomb, which kills my painter. Since I still have three mana in play I drop the recruiter and grab a painter. He reacts by slumping closer to the table. I pass. He draws and this time rather than allowing me to perform the coup de grace he extends his hand and it's GG. 2-0 and 2-0 in the league.
Clearly, I got lucky. The SoFaI over a Jitte was bad but to basically give me an extra turn by not waiting for the 'stone activation was the game. There is plenty of live ammunition in DnT - Revoker, StP, Mom, Mangara and Flickerwisp are strong. Post board he didn't have a disenchant effect which was a mistake but still he had outs.
Ten minutes in total, DnT was always to time, I really like this deck. It feels easier to play and I have enough time to eat between matches!
I would have recruiter'd for a Goblin Welder. That way with a painter in the yard and GS out, you have the kill, and Welder will eat the next piece of removal before a drawn/tutor'd painter does.
That match you won through your opponent's inexperience. Jitte would have indeed destroyed you, and you definitely needed to sideboard. Keep in mind SoFI and naming blue, so with that respect you can shave a few blasts Bridge will shine for you because they can only attack to win. They have lots of utility in their lands so Moon effects are also good. If they get Mangara/Vial/Karakas online you're toast. Firebolt is sweet in this match as stated. So that leads to the decision tree branching off where you're on the play or draw in games two/three. On the draw, I'd assume a more controlling roll and board in art/creature removal and bridges. You can shave cards like blasts, because all their cards sort of do the same thing. Sure, it's tits when you have painter on Blue, but you'll need on the spot removal in Firebolt, Viashino Heretic (reusable tutorable artifact hate) and the like. Also, find room for extra Bridges, because DnT does have ways of removing one and swinging for a million after a board stall.
I've only played the match with Mono R and I had sets of Bridges and Revokers after boarding. They all did their part, but the thing I'd concentrate on is bridges. Not letting them attack nerfs their equipment, and you can easily lock them off of Mangara, so the rest of their deck is just sitting there while you can assemble and protect your combo. But this is all against a good DnT player. If they're new to the deck then you have to play to their weaknesses more than your strengths. Both decks are good decks, it comes down to experience and a little luck, really.
Cool, thanks again Jandax.
I think game two was a really different story had he been more attuned to his deck and yes, an active Jitte was completely the end...
I have played the DnT match ALOT... And with experienced players. From this experience and results I have found it a very difficult matchup. Very skill intensive and grindy. All of our trump cards like moon appear dead but aren't, and both players have multiple answers to eachothers game plan.
All in all it can be a fun matchup. What out for flickerwisp... That's the card that can get ya.
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Mindcensor can as well. If they pass with three mana open, it's a red flag. If you let them get a Vial up to three, you're gonna have a bad time
Yeah... Seems like one of the "safest" plans to go, evolve around a moon effect and a revoker on vial :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Ish
My cards for "RaWberry shortcake" come in today! After playing fair for a while now I'm headed back to the darkside and cant wait! I do have a question though. Do you guys beat down SnT, or do you try to 3 card combo them instead?
I was talking about Jace @bounce in game 1, as this seems to be a recent MD 2-off of Sneak Show, as the top8ed SCG Legacy Open Charlotte and Starcitygames Open Series: Los Angeles Sneak Show decks suggest. Besides that thanks a lot for your thoughts, it really made me think different about this matchup... Looking forward to test it again somewhen soon!Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamGuy
Could be piloting Painter tonight for the first time in *six* years.
Let you all know how it goes!
If he shot first and did not wait for your activation to pop his ratchet bomb and you had 3 mana open. Why not just respond to the bomb activation by activating grindstone in response. Unless there is more to the situation seems way better than this line of fetching up another painter with an imperial recruiter with the open 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jungian Thing
Also about jace in sneak and show. I'm not sold that jace is all that good in sneak and show, but either way he has a nice big blast target on his head. If they do manage to stick a jace I think you are in trouble anyway.
So I guess use your blasts judiciously, and only counter the key spells so you can fight over what matters.
Yes, I see the ambiguity. Sorry. He popped it while the 'stone was on the stack.Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamGuy
Went deep at the local today with my previously posted Rw list. Will post a list and write up but here's a spoiler:
Achievement Unlocked: It's Miller Time
-Win via a natural mill (Helm of Obedience, for me)
fucking boss
I have that achievement! Actually done it 2 or 3 times (w/ stone). It's pretty frustrating unless it's game 3 it your up in game 2. Usually the opponent is hard locked and just won't scoop.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
But I did mill out a loam pox player who did half the work for me with grindstone.
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I did it with Helm. Funny thing was I boarded out one GS for the helm and that would have been game a while back because I had at that point two welders, two painters, and a heretic out on the board sitting behind a bridge just tuggin' it. Mine is also better because I won turn 5 of over time via welder shenanigans. That was an awesome game.
Painter is live on SCG right now. A strange game. The player in question is taking lines I would not. Unsure if he is running a different line of thought or is a touch untested.
Never played the deck before, but I dunno why he wasn't topping after draw to try to dig deeper in the main phase. Also revoker naming stone forge and batterskull seems terrible when you know your opponent is playing jace