The current state of Magic

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...61/738/f8e.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CptHaddock

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...61/738/f8e.jpg

---

They're just missing Fadoras.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by taconaut

You're trying to have it both ways, though.

"It's important that we call each thing what it is, because the definitions of the words matter, and they are different."

"There's no difference in legitimacy between sports and games, play what you like."

The point of branding it as "eSports" is that it acknowledges the level of skill and dedication required to play on that stage. As fans of games, you and I understand that these streams are high-stakes and not just anyone can be on there, but there are still people who don't understand it isn't just random nerds in their basement. If those properties want to expand their audience, and capture some of the people who might watch the NFL but not the OWL, they might find it useful to take cues from franchises that are already successful.

---

I'm not trying to have anything "both ways" though. The nomenclature and the "legitimacy" are not one thing. Sports might be considered by many people more "legitimate" but that is not an intrinsic quality, that is a cultural valuation. The "problem" is that no one really would take a game that as arbitrarily been renamed a sport "more seriously" because calling something doesn't make it so.

I am willing to speculate that no one, and almost certainly almost no one, would consider a game more legitimate simply because someone slapped a label that says "sport" on it. You either feel like games have intrinsic value, as such, or you don't. Some people find that sports, even traditionally defined, have no intrinsic value, as a matter of fact. Some one these people are the same ones who value games, as such. So, no, it isn't just an issue of nomenclature that gives us the valuation, it's our personal values.

So, marketing thinks it can put the cart before the horse and go on it's merry way, but it doesn't work like that. People who have a contempt for games do so, not because they aren't called sports, but because the intrinsic valuation of the constitute defining elements. They don't value sports because they are called sports. That is absurd. So, attempting to "rebrand" something as such is absurd as marketing deciding that chocolate cakes sell better than vanilla ones, so let's just call both chocolate and they'll be equal in the eyes of consumers, right? I mean, what is the flavor of chocolate anyway, but a mere sensation we can't define with objective certainly. So, here at Nonsese Cake Factory, we want you to know that all flavors take skill and effort to make and we don't want your intrinsic valuation to cloud you in thinking that one might have intrinsic properties the other doesn't.

It's also nonsensical to think that people like traditional sport solely for the fact that they require skill. Although could be a part of some people's enjoyment, another part of sport that appeals to people is the simplicity, prima facie. The world's most popular sport, football (AKA soccer for us more contemptible), is fantastically simple. Just kick this here ball into that there net and don't use your hands doing so. Out of that rises a much more interesting game (for most people, not us Yanks). And that is a key to it's success. The same reason why people decry so-and-so's "terrible" play, despite that fact that there is essentially a zero percent chance the arm-chair commentator could have been on the field in the first place, let alone been able to make the "right call" in the moment.

Why doesn't Magic have the same appeal? Because it is much less intuitive, much harder to conceptualize and with it's fantasy styling, seems "childish" to people. Again, you can rail against that, but it is what it is. And none of that is mitigated by simply calling something a sport. It goes the same for any other game that people attempt to "rebrand" as a sport. In fact, the very need to "reband" tells you all you really need to know about it's very nature. No one "branded" football as a sport, it just is. If Magic was a sport, it would be, there wouldn't be a need to rebrand it, any more than you'd rebrand flavors of cake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

They're just missing Fadoras.

---

I own a fedora, and then idiots had to cavort and ruin it. Not that I was going to wear it often, but now there is no way to wear it ever.

Not to mention, Call of Duty 4? When I told our kids the last call of Duty I played was 2, they looked at me as if I told them I worked the Pyramids in Giza.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by H

I own a fedora, and then idiots had to cavort and ruin it. Not that I was going to wear it often, but now there is no way to wear it ever.

Not to mention, Call of Duty 4? When I told our kids the last call of Duty I played was 2, they looked at me as if I told them I worked the Pyramids in Giza.

---

Unless you're over 55 the fedora was ruined before you were born.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Unless you're over 55 the fedora was ruined before you were born.

---

Yeah, likely, I just didn't know, :cry:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CptHaddock

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...61/738/f8e.jpg

---

Ugh... I guess I'm this kind of gamer:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/19/15...df982a0812.jpg

- Super Mario Bros 3
- Mega Man 2

eSports is horribly overused anyway. Hasbro even called D&D an eSport, for fucks sake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by H

Why doesn't Magic have the same appeal? Because it is much less intuitive, much harder to conceptualize and with it's fantasy styling, seems "childish" to people. Again, you can rail against that, but it is what it is. And none of that is mitigated by simply calling something a sport. It goes the same for any other game that people attempt to "rebrand" as a sport. In fact, the very need to "reband" tells you all you really need to know about it's very nature. No one "branded" football as a sport, it just is. If Magic was a sport, it would be, there wouldn't be a need to rebrand it, any more than you'd rebrand flavors of cake.

---

Obviously, the solution to the whole "Magic is not a sport" is motorcycles. Card games on motorcycles.

http://orig06.deviantart.net/59a1/f/...y_endermon.jpg

On a more serious note:

WotC dropped the MSRP

You can fully expect price hikes rather sooner or later. Hasbro needs to whore out MtG some more considering the rest of their core business is horribly failing ever since Toys"R"Us went belly up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barook

eSports is horribly overused anyway. Hasbro even called D&D an eSport, for fucks sake.

---

This is largely my point. If the criterion for sport gets lowered so far that we use it for any activity, of what use is the word?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barook

Obviously, the solution to the whole "Magic is not a sport" is motorcycles. Card games on motorcycles.

---

Well, that would certainly be something...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barook

On a more serious note:

WotC dropped the MSRP

You can fully expect price hikes rather sooner or later. Hasbro needs to whore out MtG some more considering the rest of their core business is horribly failing ever since Toys"R"Us went belly up.

---

Well, I am definitely not knowledgeable enough to say, so what are the overall effects of this in the long term? Was MSRP really holding the price?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by H

Well, I am definitely not knowledgeable enough to say, so what are the overall effects of this in the long term? Was MSRP really holding the price?

---

Worst case is it will let them distribute direct to Amazon and Walmart for different a different price point than smaller local shops, pushing their margins even narrower.

MSRP is really only an American thing, so more likely their aim is it'll let them distribute better in Europe and stuff. But it's not like any of the limited edition products were sold at MSRP anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by taconaut

My point with this is that whatever distinction you choose to make between them is wholly arbitrary

---

It's not, there are lines between what words mean. Just because you like using the phrase 'professional sport' more than 'professional gaming' doesn't change the meaning of the words themselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by taconaut

and things like high-level shooters and MOBAs demand exceptional physical abilities, even if the specific list of them doesn't include "running."

---

Again, I used several very specific traits that encompass the words 'Athletic' and 'Sport'. Right from a dictionary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by taconaut

It's important to increase the legitimacy of it, even if you think it's distinct from sport, because there are people that deride it for no reason other than, "oh it's just video games, lol @ nerds."

---

Why is important? To who? I personally could care less This, frankly, sounds more like you projecting your insecurities onto others, as most here with real input haven't reduced it to 'running good gaming bad'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by taconaut

Hand eye coordination? Teamwork? Communication? Dexterity?

---

Again, I provided very specific examples of things that constitute athleticism. From a dictionary. Not that these things don't require skill, of course. But they are not athletic in nature.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by taconaut

There's clearly physical prowess there, even if it's not "aerobic." That distinction is arbitrary.

---

It's not arbitrary...again, it's directly from the dictionary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by taconaut

Yes, in the case of Magic, I think "Sport" is a stretch. However, "eSport," in the sense of, "competitive game you can watch online," is perfectly legitimate, and not an abuse.

---

They have the same word in it. The phrase 'eSport' is an abuse anyway. To hark back to the same example, no one calls competitive poker an e-sport even though it's also a 'competitive game you can watch online'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by taconaut

I don't think [the legitimacy of a competitive gaming enterprise] is [questionable], and that is the crux of my argument. People still making arbitrary disctinctions about competition are why professional games are still looking upon with derision - my coworkers can't perceive the parallels between watching the League finals and watching the NFL, despite the fact that they are both teams of dudes playing a game. Just because some of the dudes are big and run doesn't mean the other guys don't dedicate themselves, train, etc and provide entertainment.

---

I meant legitimacy in more of a financial sense. The enterprise as a whole seems to make money. Nothing like a monster like the NFL/MLB or the like, but it seems to support itself at least. I also don't think people look upon 'pro gamers' with derision, at least I don't get that impression. And no one says that professional gamers don't "dedicate themselves, train, etc, and provide entertainment". I mean, I'm just gonna point at South Korea in general and leave it at that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by taconaut

my coworkers can't perceive the parallels between watching the League finals and watching the NFL

---

this bit I wanted to touch on specifically, partially because the following is much more opinionated than the rest.
Frankly, I can't blame them. Professional gaming in general is boring as all fuck to a layman. Unless one is deeply invested/involved with most of these games, if you've never played them before they're borderline impossible to understand. Add to this the fact that games like League, Overwatch and friends change month-by-month? Insanity to someone involved with professional sports. Please note that I'm not much of a traditional sports strategist, but I don't think that strategies get invalidated as often as they do in competitive games due to the rules of the game changing. Football (hell, American and otherwise) likely has strategies that have been good for decades, and yet the game doesn't get stale.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by H

Not to mention, Call of Duty 4? When I told our kids the last call of Duty I played was 2, they looked at me as if I told them I worked the Pyramids in Giza.

---

I was just going to ask if my hobby's prehistoric: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9tv_-8sBkY (Super Street Fighter II Turbo, or ST for short)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by niv

this bit I wanted to touch on specifically, partially because the following is much more opinionated than the rest.
Frankly, I can't blame them. Professional gaming in general is boring as all fuck to a layman. Unless one is deeply invested/involved with most of these games, if you've never played them before they're borderline impossible to understand. Add to this the fact that games like League, Overwatch and friends change month-by-month? Insanity to someone involved with professional sports. Please note that I'm not much of a traditional sports strategist, but I don't think that strategies get invalidated as often as they do in competitive games due to the rules of the game changing. Football (hell, American and otherwise) likely has strategies that have been good for decades, and yet the game doesn't get stale.

---

There's probably a reason Counter-Strike stays popular. Simple enough to understand and teams have room for self-expression so game-overhauling patches are very rare.

Nobody remembers Total Annihilation. Nothing more satisfying than the old "ARM VERMIN HAVE BEEN EXTERMINATED."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by H

Well, I am definitely not knowledgeable enough to say, so what are the overall effects of this in the long term? Was MSRP really holding the price?

---

No idea, I think the better question is "Who here buys sealed product"? Outside of draft I don't.

On that topic, this set has been sweet for draft.

I love that image. What about those of us who's thought was "System Shock, Halo CE and Golden Eye"? Hell Alex Kid anyone? Duck Hunt. Wow I am starting to feel old.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dice_Box

No idea, I think the better question is "Who here buys sealed product"? Outside of draft I don't.

On that topic, this set has been sweet for draft.

I love that image. What about those of us who's thought was "System Shock, Halo CE and Golden Eye"? Hell Alex Kid anyone? Duck Hunt. Wow I am starting to feel old.

---

I love Duck Hunt. Jack Nicholson's joker should have Super Mario, Contra, Duck hunt, Zelda, Castlevania... come on best games ever.
Now i use a real gun to shoot duck btw.

Boys are boys, they just change their toys ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

Ugh... I guess I'm this kind of gamer:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/19/15...df982a0812.jpg

- Super Mario Bros 3
- Mega Man 2

---

What about Eye of the beholder / dungeon Master / Some bitmap brothers' games?? :) (Yeah i started early).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Nobody remembers Total Annihilation. Nothing more satisfying than the old "ARM VERMIN HAVE BEEN EXTERMINATED."

---

Who remembers Dune II which was the precursor of real time strategy games?

Lands of Lore anyone?
Warcraft 1 or C&C and the one and only Kane!

RA1 DOS installer

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matsu

Lands of Lore anyone?
Warcraft 1 or C&C and the one and only Kane!

---

Good times!

My first real video game experiences were on CHoplifter, load runner and spy vs spy on Apple 2c. It's incredible to imagine that i had such a good time on those games which were graphically speaking horrible :)
But I can compare it to my first game of magic with a deck playing Sea Serpent, Basilisk and Sengir vampire, back in 1994.... Mostly crappy cards, but good times :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zombie

I was just going to ask if my hobby's prehistoric: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9tv_-8sBkY (Super Street Fighter II Turbo, or ST for short)

---

I never had a system as a kid, but would play it often at a friend's house. Positively prehistoric.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Nobody remembers Total Annihilation. Nothing more satisfying than the old "ARM VERMIN HAVE BEEN EXTERMINATED."

---

CORE for life! That game was both great and not so much at the same time. It was neat for a while, but eventually we would just stick to Starcraft, for custom games and the like.

Two games I loved but no one really played: Deadlock (Deadlock 2 was OK as well) and Rise of Nations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matsu

Lands of Lore anyone?
Warcraft 1 or C&C and the one and only Kane!

---

C&C owns

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yMy7JuGpJM

This is really a prescriptivist vs. descriptivist thing. I am obviously the latter.

I'd be interested to know what you think of the "is a hot dog a sandwich?" debate. I have a guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by H

The nomenclature and the "legitimacy" are not one thing. Sports might be considered by many people more "legitimate" but that is not an intrinsic quality, that is a cultural valuation.

Yes, and part of the cultural valuation is the words we choose to use. "Nerd" was formerly a pejorative, and is no longer, because of changing use and cultural attitudes. Words have meanings, but the meanings aren't static. They change over time.

So, no, it isn't just an issue of nomenclature that gives us the valuation, it's our personal values.

Again, which is it, then? Do words have immutable definitions, or do we define them personally?

It's also nonsensical to think that people like traditional sport solely for the fact that they require skill. Although could be a part of some people's enjoyment, another part of sport that appeals to people is the simplicity. The world's most popular sport, football, is fantastically simple, and that is a key to it's success.

I mean, American Football and Baseball are both extremely complicated, and are both very popular. I agree that simplicity will enable widespread appeal, but I don't think it's the driving factor. Why do we keep track of records, and debate which players were the greatest of all time? Because the fundamental nature of sport is excellence, whether it's with a ball, bat, mouse, or controller.

Why doesn't Magic have the same appeal? Because it is much less intuitive, much harder to conceptualize and with it's fantasy styling, seems "childish" to people.

Again, those opinions change, and are fluid. Boxing, for instance, was once a preeminent component of the American sports landscape, but has since fallen from grace because it's seen as dangerous and barbaric. It's possible to argue American Football is on the same trajectory, as a consequence of new knowledge about TBI and the unsettling conduct of the players off the field.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by niv

It's not, there are lines between what words mean. Just because you like using the phrase 'professional sport' more than 'professional gaming' doesn't change the meaning of the words themselves.

As a descriptivist, the meaning of words comes from how we use them.

Again, I used several very specific traits that encompass the words 'Athletic' and 'Sport'. Right from a dictionary.

The dictionary is a snapshot, it changes.

Most here with real input haven't reduced it to 'running good gaming bad'

Maybe I'm misinterpreting it, but it really feels to me like you're trying to separate them on that basis that calling games "sports" is the consequence of nerds aspiring to more than they're worth, which seems to imply "running good, gaming bad," as you've put it.

They have the same word in it. The phrase 'eSport' is an abuse anyway. To hark back to the same example, no one calls competitive poker an e-sport even though it's also a 'competitive game you can watch online'

Yes, and that's fine. People have an intuitive understanding that poker requires skill, and that the stakes in it are high, because the money is physically present at the table. Also, you may recall that the premier event in Poker is the "World Series of Poker"...

Professional gaming in general is boring as all fuck to a layman. Unless one is deeply invested/involved with most of these games, if you've never played them before they're borderline impossible to understand.

I don't think League and American football differ considerably in complexity. In fact, I think they share several attributes: Tanks, DPS, Carries, Supports, and Junglers all have parallels in Linemen, Receivers, Quarterbacks, Defensive Backs, and Special Teams, and the objective of both games is to bring your offense to bear on the opposing team by exploiting asymmetries in positioning (get your tank on the carry, get your linemen to sack the quarterback). Many of the same things can be said of Overwatch, and in that game there's even a Payload (ball) you push to get yardage(!).

League can even have more interesting things going on at once, because both teams are on offense and defense at the same time, and there's a macro element that resembles clock management in football but has the potential to be more varied and interesting.

Anyone who is an American Football fan is perfectly capable of understanding a game of League or Overwatch. Maybe if they realized they have more in common than they do different, they'd give it a shot, and maybe one way to get them to realize that is branding!


Add to this the fact that games like League, Overwatch and friends change month-by-month? Insanity to someone involved with professional sports. I don't think that strategies get invalidated as often as they do in competitive games due to the rules of the game changing. Football (hell, American and otherwise) likely has strategies that have been good for decades, and yet the game doesn't get stale.

I'll admit that I'm not an expert in standard sports either, but the notion that they rarely change is not true - football has had many small rules changes ("patches," if you will) that people perseverate over constantly. Here is a list of changes, they make a couple every year, which is not all that different from seasonal changes in Overwatch or any other game.

Plus, even if a former meta lineup changes, is it really all that different if the new Carry is Cait instead of Ashe, or if running an extra tank is strong because Ana got released with killer numbers? The fundamentals are the same, and these changes are the kind of thing sports fans love to debate/hear about from the in-game commentators - I would argue they are a boon.

---

P.S.: A hot dog is a sandwich.

Man i was looking for the name of this game...
Command & conquer!

One of the first games i played in a LAN (On PC because i had already played some games on amiga with Null cable in direct connection) along Duke Nukem !

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tylert

Man i was looking for the name of this game...
Command & conquer!

One of the first games i played in a LAN (On PC because i had already played some games on amiga with Null cable in direct connection) along Duke Nukem !

---

Original C&C circa ~1995 is still one of my favorites. Several of its successors are good; but the original got so much right for basically inventing a genre. I was truly inspired the last time I played it. I remember the first time I played it, maybe I was 9 or so; I was sleeping over at a friends house, they showed me the game and I don't think I hung out with them the rest of the night. To be fair to myself; that kid was a douche. But his game was pretty great.

Yes and the National Baseball League (EDIT: Major League Baseball. How I did that is beyond me.) championship is referred to as The WORLD Series. And there's a Miss UNIVERSE beauty pageant. And let's not forget WORLDStar Hip Hop.

Give me a break dude. If I wanted to play language games I would have gone into academia.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by taconaut

This is really a prescriptivist vs. descriptivist thing. I am obviously the latter.

I'd be interested to know what you think of the "is a hot dog a sandwich?" debate. I have a guess.

P.S.: A hot dog is a sandwich.

---

If the definition of "sandwich" is meat between two slices of bread, then yes. However, this would tend to get you into trouble, because if you have something like pepperoni on pizza and you fold it in half, that too is a "sandwich." However, that isn't really how people use the term sandwich. Not to mention, a hot dog isn't guaranteed to be eaten between bread. Our kids never do, they don't like buns. So, no, a "hot dog" is not a sandwich, but it is something that could be eaten as a nominal "sandwich."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by taconaut

Yes, and part of the cultural valuation is the words we choose to use. "Nerd" was formerly a pejorative, and is no longer, because of changing use and cultural attitudes. Words have meanings, but the meanings aren't static. They change over time.

---

I'm not changing the meaning of sports. In fact, I am keeping it the same. The definition of nerd hasn't changed, only the value associated with the term. So, what you want is an overarching broad meaning change to the word sport. I'm not for that. What you also want is a different valuation of the word game. I'm fine with that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by taconaut

Again, which is it, then? Do words have immutable definitions, or do we define them personally?

---

Words are defined inter-subjectively. You can have any definition of a word that you like. That doesn't mean people are going to agree with you. You want to change the definition of sport to include any game, or at least the games you define as "skillful." I am against that. So, here we are. Could we arbitrarily call anything in the world a sport? Sure. But that would make the word so broad to be essentially meaningless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by taconaut

I mean, American Football and Baseball are both extremely complicated, and are both very popular. I agree that simplicity will enable widespread appeal, but I don't think it's the driving factor. Why do we keep track of records, and debate which players were the greatest of all time? Because the fundamental nature of sport is excellence, whether it's with a ball, bat, mouse, or controller.

---

Again, this precludes a very broad definition of sport which I don't agree with. You can achieve excellence in many things, that doesn't qualify it as a sport by definition. And I'd still disagree that Baseball or Football are all that complicated, but that is really besides the point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by taconaut

Again, those opinions change, and are fluid. Boxing, for instance, was once a preeminent component of the American sports landscape, but has since fallen from grace because it's seen as dangerous and barbaric. It's possible to argue American Football is on the same trajectory, as a consequence of new knowledge about TBI and the unsettling conduct of the players off the field.

---

Sure, people's opinion's change, as does their assignment of value. None of this precludes a definitional, or conceptual change, to the nature of sports. What you seem to be hung up on is that since sports are given cultural value, anything you want to have the same cultural value should be labeled a sport. I'm not buying that. If you want the cultural acceptance, change the culture. That's what happened to the term "nerd." It didn't conceptually drift into meaning the same as "jock" or "aficionado" or anything. It still means the same as it always did. It just doesn't have the negative connotation it once did.

Boxing isn't suddenly not a sport because people don't like to watch it. A game isn't suddenly a sport just people some people do like to watch it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Nobody remembers Total Annihilation. Nothing more satisfying than the old "ARM VERMIN HAVE BEEN EXTERMINATED."

---

I have some ancient and vague memories of Total Annihiliation Kingdoms. "Castle building on. Castle building off. Command me!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zombie

RA1 DOS installer

---

Let me tell you about Madden '95, NHL '97 and the boost-disks I needed to play them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dice_Box

No idea, I think the better question is "Who here buys sealed product"? Outside of draft I don't.

On that topic, this set has been sweet for draft.

I love that image. What about those of us who's thought was "System Shock, Halo CE and Golden Eye"? Hell Alex Kid anyone? Duck Hunt. Wow I am starting to feel old.

---

I only buy sealed so I have a stack of booster packs for EDH where I play Booster Tutor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by H

words

---

Friend arguing with a pedant is just like arguing with someone with an anime avatar. Nothing constructive will ever come out of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CptHaddock

Friend arguing with a pedant is just like arguing with someone with an anime avatar. Nothing constructive will ever come out of it.

---

What about a pedant who has an anime avatar; like a double-negative thing?

Getting back on topic: Brainstorm is a sport; fight me

If you have to cover it with a napkin before you get up so that your friends don't punch it, it's a sandwich. How hard is that, honestly

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TsumiBand

If you have to cover it with a napkin before you get up so that your friends don't punch it, it's a sandwich. How hard is that, honestly

---

Because... What?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Because... What?

---

If you have to ask you really don't want to know.

And if you already know, you better cover your fucking hot dogs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Because... What?

---

Never heard of Sandwich Punch?

Well, now you are tainted. Somethings are better left unknown.

Lmao one of the first links that came up was this: http://www.archive.themanadrain.com/...?topic=33623.0

What the fuck wrong with you folks in the flyovers?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TsumiBand

If you have to cover it with a napkin before you get up so that your friends don't punch it, it's a sandwich. How hard is that, honestly

---

:laugh:

Perfection as usual Tsumi

If you want me to not hang out with you anymore, please be an adult and say so instead of punching my sandwich like an asshole.