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Why wouldn't you run a card that spells "Deal with me now, or I'll hit you where it REALLY hurts. And probably repeatedly at that!" and fits the general theme of your deck really well as a four-of? I never understood those who'd trim D&T by its most outstanding cornerstones like Karakas and Mangara of Corondor - there are matches you'll win without either, but there are others you win BECAUSE of one or the other. Or both.
Because Mangara sometimes (when you don't have Karakas online) can be worse than an Oblivion Ring (which is the WORSE card of the deck by far)? Because 2 of this in the opining hand is an auto mull?Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
I think that you rely to much on Mangara + Karakas. Those cards are nice, but they aren't the only way to win games, and against a lot of decks the combo is worthless because it is too slow/fragile.
If you consider a starting hand with two copies of Mangara an "auto-mull", I can definitely assure you: you are playing the card and probably the whole deck very, very wrong.
Care to explain why?Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
Huh? I can't think of one time when I had an opening hand including two Mangaras and thought "This is good, I keep".Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
Mangara is wildcard removal. It's a card that answers a great many threats, and relying on Karakas - or even more so, a single activation of it - to save it and abuse it more than once is rather short-sighted. If your opponent knows how to beat D&T, he'll hate on the Mangara and Karakas E
engine any way he can, which means that - unless you're sealing the deal with it and winning anyway - you're going to lose Mangara, which is the stronger part of the combo, rather sooner than later. Having a spare copy isn't bad (except for when Humility is on the battlefield), since that card always trades at least 1-for-1, and _must_ be answered by your opponent asap.
It really depends on the matchup in my opinion. Mangara is too slow to rely on for several matchups. As for hating on Mangara. It depends on how they hate on her. If it's targetted, you have Mothers and Flickerwisps+Vials to deal with that. If it's Humility/E.Plague, multiples won't help. It's an easily hated on combo, I don't think it's worth relying on too much. It adds to the deck, but I don't believe it's worth building around just that.
Well yes, of course. Every card can be dead in certain matchups, all cards are situational. Mangara just single-handedly shuts off a ton of cards other decks and even archetypes have serious problems with - it makes Emrakul shudder, takes out the Planeswalker trash, eats Moats and Ensnaring Bridges, and occasionally chump-blocks one attacker to snipe out a second one, all while beaming up to its owner's hand just a moment before. It's not exactly news that it doesn't do much against, e. g., Storm Combo, but neither does the deck as a whole. Mangara is made of serious win, and I cannot help but frown every time if some newfangled D&T-player disesteems it because it's "easily hated on". Being a creature, and therefore easily removed, is not a liability in D&T, mostly because of the quartet of Aether Vials I hope you are running. If you fin it to be sub-par in a certain matchup, board it out. It's that easy.
what do you guys think of putting a singleton of ghostly prison in the sb? considering combo is going a bit down, and the freaking vengevival deck is everywhere, i think it would do some good right? and the tax effect is even better now with leonin arbiters hitting fetches...it's really nice against zoo too...any thoughts?
I don't believe in having the toolbox with arbiter. But if you do have it, it could work. It might also help against Goblins.
hmm so Penguinizer, what's your sb? i think it still works though...more often than not, the arbiter is always killed or countered at sight in my experience...
My current SB consists of:
4x Tormod's Crypt (might drop this down to 3 though.)
3x Ethersworn Canonist (Combo)
3x Wing Shards (Oh so many decks. It's great.)
3x Kitchen Finks (Helps stabilize against zoo. This is a slot I might switch out though.)
1x Jötun Grunt
1x Leonin Arbiter
The last two are to supplement MD 3-ofs.
Well, it's been calm over here lately, so I thought I would post my GW for critique and discussion.
Here you go but beware, long post ahead...
// Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Savannah
3 Karakas
3 Plains
1 Forest
// Creatures (28)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mangara of Corondor
// Spells (11)
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
// Sideboard (15)
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Meekstone
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Runed Halo
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Body and Mind
Some notes:
- The sideboard must be tailored to your meta..."The flexible" spots for me are: Meekstone (Vs. Reanimator, New Horizons and occasionally Elves! and Merfolk), Wheel of Sun and Moon (Vs. Reanimator, Loam, Lands, Dredge...) and Sword of Body and Mind (Vs.? I'm just trying it out). The others are quite a MUST.
- I haven't tested Rishadan Port nor Flickerwisp. I don't like the idea of the port because I'm running 2 colors; I don't want to open the deck to manascrew, and with this land configuration I can't recall being colorscrewed. I don't like the idea of the 'Wisp because this version doesn't rely that much on the Mangara trick and I don't play Oblivion Ring (Qasali does almost the same job, but so much better...). However, it may warrant testing, as everybody here speaks wonders about the card. I don't know what to cut for it, so for the moment it is not in; but I'm open to suggestions backed up with testing
- Before you ask, Noble Hierarch doesn't belong here. The deck doesn't need accel and the exalted triggers needed (to break goyf stalemates and pump up the damage) are provided by the Pridemage.
Some wild ideas (untested, so no flaming plz):
- Do you feel that we could use Elspeth, Knight-Errant somewhere in the deck? Maybe a 2-of on the side, using 2 of the open slots? The walker is very powerful and can help when you're winning and when you're losing, so I think that it might warrant some testing. However...It can't be used with [card]Gaddock Teeg[/card]...but that shouldn't be a big problem.
- Same as above but with Eternal Witness. That card + Vial seems like a winner to me. Recurring a Wasteland, StP or a broken equipment seems nice...
- What about changing the sideboard E-tutor toolbox for a Worldly tutor toolbox? In theory, that helps us to put more pressure as we'll always be adding power to the board AND we get new Vial Tricks. However, we loose the ability to search for Vial (that I have never used) or equipment (which I have rarely used and don't mind loosing) AND we'll probably need more access to green mana. Let's see what we can get and what we loose:
Graveyard hate: We loose Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus. We gain access to Loaming Shaman and Faerie Macabre. I'm not sure which tutor is better here.
Storm Combo: We maintain access to Ethersworn Canonist. We loose Runed Halo (which never was very good, btw...). On the other hand, we gain more access to Gaddock Teeg/Leonin Arbiter (depending on the matchup) and we could include back Glowrider/True Believer (also see Meddling Mage below). W-Tutor seems better here (however, if they go Wish --> Pyroclasm, they can take out several hatebears at once) :thumbsup:
Utility: We loose Pithing Needle, Engineered Explosives, Meekstone, Runed Halo. That's bad...We gain access to Goldmeadow Harrier, Tivadar of Thorn (goblins is not that favorable in my opinion...), Marble Titan (bad card, but...it has the same ability than Meekstone if needed), Meddling Mage (I know we can't cast it, but as a singleton could be vialed in...), Intrepid Hero (if big critters are a poblem), Dauntless Escort (Mass removal anyone?) and generally to any critter already on our deck (Mangara, Mystic, Qasali...). W-tutor seems more flexible for a diverse metagame. Probably :thumbsup:
- All the above but with Eladamri's Call instead of W-Tutor. Each has it's pros and cons, but at first I think E-tutor would be better, except in meta's where storm combo is not an issue.
Comments welcome and appreciated.
At least this choice is, imo, strictly worse than the E-Tutor version. As tutored cards don't end up in your hand, you're probably after a more or less permanent solution to your problems, which Wheel of Sun and Moon is in terms of yardhate, and and the hatebears you list as an alternative aren't. Eladamri's call seems better here, but it's 2 mana already. One could consider playing Living Wish at that point, which would open up accessing sideboard hate game one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorgalis
i really recommend playing Living Wish if you're playing the green splash. It is a little slow, and I've been thinking of cutting it from 3 to 2, but it makes the Mangara/Karakas engine super-reliable, and it's useful in corner cases to wish for stuff like Gaddock Teeg, Kitchen Finks, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorgalis
Well, I have already tested Living Wish and it doesn't work, because it is too slow. Also, I don't see myself changing anything from the MD, I just want to replicate the E-Tutor Side with W-Tutor.
I'll be testing this list and feeding the updates if anybody is interested...
How is Living Wish any slower than Eladamri's Call?
Living Wish is slower than W-Tutor in the early game, not slower than Eladamri's call.
I've been giving it some thought, and tinkering with a friend, and I'll give a shot to a build with Living Wish. And, maaaybe, play it tomorrow at my local tourney...so maybe more feedback later.
Well, I'm also going to a local tourney tomorrow. I doubt it's the same one though. :P
I'm playing a fairly standard mono-W list with 3x Mishra's Factory in place of Rishadan Port and 4x Wasteland. 3 Arbiters main and one SB.
I still don't like my SB at all, it feels too rigid. 4x Crypt and 2x Grunts to supplement 2 MD grunts is enough gravehate, a couple of kitchen finks against aggro, Wing Shards and Canonist should be ok though. It just feels bad compared to the flexibility of the toolbox.
Played 31 ppl Legacy FNM (5 rounds, no top). Went 3-2 with the following list:
9 Plains
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Oust
4 Mother of Runes
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
3 Jotun Grunt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Cataclysm
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Condemn
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Aura of Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Runed Halo
1 Pithing Needle
It was my first real tournament in more than year and I didn't make notes, so just a small overview:
Round 1: vs Bant (I saw Top, so probably it was Countertop Bant) 2-0
Game 1: don't remember here, guess I won on the back of creature with SoLaS
Game 2: Again, won with equipped creature, but the true star in this game was Goldmeadow Harrier for tapping enemy creatures in responce to equip Jitte.
Round 2: vs Mono-:r: Goblins, 2-0
Game 1: I installed fast Jitte, he burned 2 Flickerwisps with 2 Tarfire, I tapped his mana with Ports and ended up with Jitte on Avenger and won
Game 2: again, fast Jitte, Avenger, StP, my opponent stuck on 1 land and Vial and topdecked 4 non-goblins from Ringleader. I feel a little dirty for this game.
Round 3: vs Sneak and Tell, 1-2
Game 1: Turn 2 Sneak Attack, Emrakul, turn 3 Emrakul.
Game 2: beat him with Mystic and SoFaI, don't remember if he did something interesting
Game 3: I forgot to side in Runed Halo for Prog and was promptly eaten with turn 2 or 3 hydra.
Round 4: vs Eyeless Dredge, 1-2
Game 1: Saw Grunt too late, was eaten with Ichorids and zombies
Game 2: Turn 1 E-Tutor, Turn 2 Wheel of Sun and Moon, game
Game 3: I mulled to 6 and he Therapied my E-Tutor. After some turns of slowdredge I drew bunch of lands while he finnaly managed to dig power and made 10+ tokens
Round 5: vs Food Chain Combo, 2-0
Round 1: Managed to beat through Woodfall Primus with equipped dude. Goldmeadow Harrier done nice job.
Round 2: Ethersworn Canonist with Mom's protection prevented his combo, Harrier tapped blockers adn I bashed for the win just a turn before he could have an opportunity to combo out.
Overall, I punted alot and had some luck.
I never wanted Leonin Arbiter. Goldmeadow Harrier was full of win and I guess that 5-th StP effect can turn into 3rd kithkin.
Sideboard was usefull, but I think about -1 Grunt, -1 Condemn, +2 Wing Shards to fight Hydra.
If Leonin Arbiter doesn't work for me, I might cut some of the SB cards and move it to the SB and put Harriers back in main.
Congrats, I guess? People keep saying that Arbiter needs to be in the MD, but she has never shined for me. SB is a great spot for her, for not every deck will be crippled with her on the field. I am glad to see that Harrier was a positive part of your deck.
I've finally gotten around to some testing with Arbiter and I must say I have not been impressed. It has never been more than just a bear. It doesn't improve any of our problem matchups. Even harrier, while seemingly sub-par, has allowed me to win games I shouldn't have. The decks it hinders the most, blue-based control with few removal spells, we already have a good matchup against. There is also much better hate against combo than Arbiter. The one matchup I haven't been able to test is Vengevine survival. This is the one matchups where it seems it could be useful but for now, Arbiter is so underwhelming in the other matchups that I'm leave it out of the deck.
Well. i'm at the tournament. So far I'm neutral on Arbiter. It'll have done about as much good for me as Harrier. This is to say it has done nothing.
Burn was too fast and got Vortex active too fast for finks or jitte to help. Tendrils in turn manages to go off with only two lands drawn and one left in play the turn it went off. All without any fetches or tutors.
Two bad matchups in a row. Probably will play Belcher net. Considering a drop if I do.
MD arbiter seems meh. Might just be better as SB.I just feel like I'm losing my faith in the deck in general. It just hasn't done well at all for me.
I am not saying that Arbiters are bad or not yet. But I will say that if it turns out to be about the same as a Canonist, I would just stick with Canonists. They are a stronger lock.
Here's a report about the rest of the tourney. Round 3, some random pile. Was pretty easy. Round 4, storm. He fizzled game 1 and I had 2x arbiter and canonist along with 2 lands in my hand. Round 5 was dreadstill. Game 1 avenger+sword wins. Game 2 he just rolls over me. Game 3 I get him to 4, but he has removal fo my dudes and gets countertop active.
Overall, I'd rather just have Harriers MD. Was better in my opinion. Arbiter might work in the SB, but was a disappointment MD.
Here's the meta breakdown and T8 lists: http://poromagia.com/index.php?page=...e&articleid=11
I ended up going 2-3. 3-1-1 was needed to get into T8.
I don't consider Arbiter hate against storm combo. They don't play enough fetches nor search spells for it to be relevant...Well, maaaaybe Doomsday, but it is still a stretch. If you're looking to beat storm combo, Canonist is your man (well, artifact girl or whatever it is).Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
What I can say from my testing is that Arbiter usually destroys Landstill on its own, and also Survival decks. And those are not good matchups for D&T.
@penguinizer: looking at your meta, it seems that Canonist >> Arbiter for you...
Ahh. Yes. Sorry if you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that Arbiter was storm hate, but that if there's any reason to use Arbiter, it shouldn't be for storm combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorgalis
As for landstill, which version have you been testing against? UBGw or UW/x? I know UBG usually runs 6-7 spot removal + deeds and it just kills us. Does Arbiter actually make this matchup beatable?
No prob Supachai.
I just smashed UW Landstill against a very good player (from the Mana Drain), but I play Gaddock Teeg + Qasali Pridemage, so that matchup is quite easy...:tongue: Arbiter is just overkill there, and it helps you slowing them down.
UBG Landstill has Innocent Blood and Ghastly Demise; if can play around those and/or make sure they don't have access to black mana, you're good to go.
Really, Arbiter is very good against fetchlands. I think that people thought that it would win games on its own...and sure it doesn't. But which creature does? (and Mangara doesn't count because it needs Karakas). It gives you a lot of time though, and meanwhile it beats or attracts removal. Of course, iit dies to most of the removal out there but...which creature in D&T doesn't? And we play Mother of Runes for a reason...
If you want to win games with Arbiter alone against fetchlands, you would need to land it turn one. But that would be a whole new deck, as you'd need moxen and Suppression Field.
I'm getting a lot of positive feedback about Flickerwisp, which I don't play in my GW build. I'll try to put it in somewhere...but I don't know what to cut.
Post your list so we can help out.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post494553Quote:
Originally Posted by LegacyDan
his list as of wednesday though it may have changed slightly sense then so don't quote me on that.
I have been running mono white version with canonist main.
For the sideboard I have found Chalice of the void works much better than Chant for me. for 1 against storm combo you don't need to leave a mana open and you can lay every threat for a faster clock. Though what impresses me even more is its versatility against decks like enchantress, and red burn. If you set it for 1 against those it slows them down considerably. Also against some versions of affinity if you are on the play chalice for 0 can wreck them or late game at 2 for plating, ravager, and the new guy that gives +1+1 counters. I wouldn't bring it in if you are on the draw however.
for reference my SB currently consists of
2 aura of silence
2 cataclysm
2 BFT
3 chalice of the void
2 kitchen finks
1 relic of protogenesis
1 tormods crypt
1 wheel of sun and moon
Im not quite sure which gy hate is best for me, so even though I don't have tutors I still keep the 3 different GY hate cards so Ichorid has a harder time with therapy, and it is harder to name the right one with needle.
Chalice of the Void does have the problem of shutting down a huge chunk of this deck itself if not timed properly (i.e. if not landed after an Aether Vial or two).
against storm and affinity you set it for 0. Against enchantress your 1 drops don't do much anyway except for vial. Against burn yes you lose BFT and Mom if you dont time it right, but shutting down 1/4 of their deck is Very worth it.
against Storm, and Enchantress you have better options in the deck that don't require you to dilute your deck's threat base all that much (i.e. Ethersworn Canonist is a prime example).Quote:
Originally Posted by HerrFunker
Against Affinity, there is always the option of running things such as Serenity if you are really concerned about Affinity, and if it becomes a really huge problem you can always just have Null Rod in the sideboard considering you really don't need Aether Vial in this match up, much less the equipment if you can shut down 90% of their deck.
As far as Burn... why do we need Chalice of the Void in that match up exactly? That should be an easy win for any version of Death and Taxes to begin with...
I dunno. I've had trouble against Burn. It just ends up being fast, and Sulfuric Vortex prevents me from stabilizing fast enough. I may just be an idiot.
As for jitte and whatnot. Smash to Smithereens seems to appear at the worst possible time.
okay, so um... have you tried the Green Splash?Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguinizer
Things the Green Splash adds to help the Burn Match Up:
Gaddock Teeg = Shuts down Fireblast and Flame Javelin among a few other more interesting options they could be running such as X-spells.
Qasali Pridemage = destroys Sulfuric Vortex... key in defeating them...
Tarmogoyf = a creature that is near impossible for a burn deck to get rid of with anything in their deck short of a fireblast cast extremely early.
All of these cards and more are available in a Green Splash that enable you to stop them from killing you as easily. Granted you will take damage faster than normal due to fetches and horizon canopy... but on the flip side that ALSO has the benefit of preventing you from being the victim of Hidetsugu's Second Rite which I am told some burn decks capitalize on...
For the record, I used to play burn, I know what it's weaknesses are and what they are not... and both Mono-White Death and Taxes, and GW Death and Taxes have the tools necessary to beat the deck without adding things like Chalice of the Void.
what's the consensus on enlightened tutor, is 3 or 4 the right number?i'm thinking about buying those foil ones and i need to know what's the best configuration...:)
0? IF you are gonna use them, 3 seems about right.
Hello, I'm a consistant lurker on this thread but rarely post. I've been toying with DnT and it's variants for a few years without much actual tournament experience but lots of games with friends. I'm going to GP Toronto and am deciding between ThopterTop or GW DnT, I'm leaning towards DnT simply because it's more fun to play.
I have a lot of respect for Finn's mono-White list but I can't help but be lured by the goodies that splashing Green gets me. I wonder what people with more experience have to say about the green splash and the current meta-game. I'm specifically excited about 4x Tarmogoyf, 4x QasaliPridemage. I would take out Serra Avenger and Flickerwisp to accommodate.
Other features I'd like to include is 1 Crucible of World to reccur Horizon Canopies, Wastelands and generally keep my mana flowing so as to better facilitate the tempo imblanace that Rishadan Port creates.
I'm also thinking of running 3x Cannonist MD and boarding into Leonin Arbiters against the Survival and other search heavy strategies.
Any thoughts, specifically about the green splash I guess...