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I'm just starting out in Legacy and I played a few games against my friends Affinity deck.
I sided in Pithing needle, steel sabotage, and chalice of the void. It seemed like ravager, plating, and tezz are all answer me now cards, and I always found myself coming up one answer short. I think my play testing went something like 10-2 in favor of affinity, with 10 games post sideboard.
Do we have game vs. Affinity? If so how is it supposed to work?
Fish is a meta anti Blue and combo deck. It's really never had a favorable match against Affinity. You can use half your side to make it an even fight, but it's really not worth it since you lose so much sideboard space. You really have to pick one of two options, go all in, side to hell and be weak against so many other decks, or just take the loss against an uncommon foe. I pick the second.
Thats pretty much the way I felt. I guess I'll opt for the auto loss to affinity in favor of having cards for other match ups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
There have been quite an abundance of posts lately, asking how to beat X deck. Almost every reply had been to just avoid them, or get lucky. The easiest way to fix all these terrible match ups, is just splash a color. The two most useful colors now are probably black or red. Black gives you the ability to beat all the non-affinity aggressive decks, via e. Plague, perish, and dread of night. While red offers sudden demise to beat all the non-affinity aggressive decks, and artifact destruction to beat stoneforge mystic and affinity.
I have been also thinking about this. And now that most of us have realised Wasteland is not a must in the deck, spashing a color has less consistency problems than before.Quote:
Originally Posted by landwalker000
The downsides are obvious, we cut wastes to ensure TNN entering the battlefield on turn 3, and with this manabase we again may have trouble on taht...
Could a mana base like this could posibly be viable?
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
4 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
To me, the answer will be if you want to play two colours, play another deck. The strength of Fish is that you are not going to die to Stifle, DRS does not feed off you and you don't damage yourself with your lands. The deck is a strong meta call. If it doesn't suit your meta, play a deck that does.
Edit:
I am not trying to undervalue good ideas and suggestions here, it's just everything you can suggest fits better in the shells that have been built around them. I just don't feel that adding in more colours helps us as much as it helps other options.
Being a meta call doesn't mean you won't face any other deck those expected.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Also most people didn't also thought cutting wastelands (me the first) was the right move, and at the moment lists with cavern are getting the better results.
I'm not saying to add a color, but we should be discussing it at least. There is one SB card that solves almost all of our bad MU's: Rough. (Even Pyroclasm or Sudden Demise)
Then, the cost of weakening our mana bases is still a big problem...
EDIT: Not Rough, I was thinking as Canadian, Sudden Demise would work better
When a lot of the meta is fielding fetchlands we shift to cosi's trickster to take advantage and punish them. Other decks use more PoP, stifle, back to basics, blood moon, etc. I dont think it a good option to start splashing a second colour when we are in a world that is trying to punish these greedy mana decks. I would consider putting back to basics back into my side long before I considered going away from basic islands. Seriously the pros do not outweigh the cons for me.
This is a similar thought that I relate. In the current meta there is an influx of decks using TNN and as such thet will be an increase of ways to remove TNN. Thus I do not feel it wise to open yourself to any of those strategies. Never dump your hand if your opponent can have mass removal which you cant control (Supreme Verdict). Never have TNN standing by itself if your opponent can have sacrifice effects (Cruel Edict). And these are the reasons I like Merfolk, they can be open to these effects but only when you allow them to be open, you decide when to be the aggressor and how far to take it in most cases.
Cheers
I always thought the main strength of this deck, wasn't that it was stifle proof or that it didn't feed deathrite, but that it was an aggressive deck that can actually beat combo.
Any new testing been done? I'm going to test Merfolk at my FNM this week against at least mono-g elves. Not exactly competitive, but it will be interesting to test against something much harder than I've ever faced, since Maverick or D&T might as well not exist in my local meta.
Any current opinions on the following:
Kira: the Great Glass Spinner - I was thinking of MDing this, but no one really plays it, not even in the SB. It seems really good to me, especially against Jittes/SoFI.
Sygg: River Cutthroat - anyone been playing with it again? You liking it? Trying to decide between 2 or 3 in my deck for testing. I was going to go with a 2/2 split with Kira (since spot removal is the main reason I feel like I need to draw cards, to replace my dudes. Blank the removal, and I feel better).
Merrow Reejery - who is cutting, who isn't?
Not just stifle: we are wasteland resistant (they can wastelands our non-basics, but it is hardly the end of the world), taxing deck resistant and blood moon resistant. Blood moon is a REAL threat. Someone had it worked out, that we'd lose 2-3 life on average with fetchlands, and that adds up a lot in a race. All of those things are nothing to sneeze at.Quote:
Originally Posted by landwalker000
I think that splashing a different colour might be an option, but to warrant it, you'd need to identify what the problems of the deck are, and then we can look within blue/colourless cards and see if there is any efficient answer there first. I used to think we should splash white for removal, and then someone pointed out dismember. The main reason I'd see to play pyroclasm would be to hit elves: and it is much better to attack their engine than kill their dudes, because they can literally rebuild within a turn, their card advantage is nuts.
I suspect that we'll find that blue and colourless cards have all of the answers to problems that we need.
I will go to my local tournament this evening.
The list will be quite similar to the Greg Hatch one... I want to try it after his advice :-) I would have really really like to try the Tidal Warrior but the tournament is sanctioned (no proxy) and I am not sure if I will be able to find them :-/ ( if yes, I will cut the Merrow)
I tried Sygg.. He is not terrible but IMHO He is not solving our problem...
To let it works you have to have a good presence on the table that means that usually you do not need it. Against combo (apart from elves) it seems nice because it works immediately but It is not like standstill... If you have to be lucky with standstill, using Sygg you have to be a lot more lucky...
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I have actually been playing around with the Merrow Reejerey slots in my deck. I have been very happy with the change personally. First thing I want to say is if you still play wasteland & mutavault just skip over this post because Merrow Reejery is too good to change! It’s a standalone Lord, It can get a double vial use, untap an Island for another blue, tap down enough creatures to force through an attack for a turn, and it’s a single blue casting cost. With 12 blue lands and 8 colorless lands you cannot beat Reejery. However… If you have switched to Cavern of Souls & Mutavault with 12 Islands then hitting UU is not as difficult when casting merfolk with essentially 16 blue sources. Merfolk Sovereign is also a standalone lord but, its ability is very relevant is some of Merfolk’s worst matchups. While you lose the chance of an explosive vial drop that Reejery can sometimes provide you gain an unblockable creature in non-island matches. I have found that to be much more useful to me and both are 3cc Lords regardless of their other ability. Greg’s Cosi’s Tricksters have also been great for me! I still can’t let go of my vials however and without the slots to add in Tidal Warrior my Sovereign’s have been doing allot of work for me. Here is my list:
4x Cursecatcher
2x Cosi's Trickster
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Master of the Pearl Trident
4x Phantasmal Image
4x Silvergill Adept
4x True-Name Nemesis
2x Merfolk Sovereign
4x Aether Vial
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
12x Island
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Mutavault
late to the party, but thanks for the explanation greg hatch.
has anyone tested his second list, the onw without aether vials?.
I don't think i could play without them, it's like going out naked!!!:wink:
I think you have some solid thoughts regarding Sovereign. I mean with all this talk about Tidal Warrior allowing you to get damage through (primary use) but at the cost of forgoing either your Aether Vials or Cosi's Tricksters in its place, I think Sovereign is definitely worth considering to fill the same sort of role (not as well in most cases, but along the same vein.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shough
Don't get me wrong, Reejery has always been solid, but when you really think about it, you're not going to get to take advantage of any of the Reejery antics until T4 at the earliest, and now that we aren't running Standstill, the chances of having much of a grip in the T4-T5 range to really take advantage of Reejery have dwindled. If you're looking to play the 4xTNN+some Cosi Tricksters, I think Sovereign is certainly worth considering in Reejerys spot as it can help us win the races on stalled boards while also pumping our troops.
I'm pretty excited to try out my deck out our little 16ish-man tourney next week. Mainly because I want to see in action how running 4x Phantasmal Images and only 8 Lords works out for me. I have been goldfishing with this core build:
4 x Cursecatcher
4 x Silvergill Adept
4 x Lord of Atlantis
4 x Master of the Pearl Trident
4 x Phantasmal Image
4 x True-Name Nemesis
4 x Aether Vial
4 x Force of Will
3 x Daze
1 x Spell Pierce (not sure if I should go 4 daze instead)
4 x Flexi Spots
12 Island
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
I'm pretty happy with it as going. Phantasmal Image is really pulling its weight. Going from 3cc Reejery to 2cc Phantasmal Image speeds up the deck considerably. I'm hitting T4 kills with Merfolk much more consistently. But here is the thing: I'm only goldfishing, I need to actually play it out. Will be fun! I think that if I didn't have blood moon and stifle running around my meta, I'd be mightily tempted to borrow 7-8 fetchlands and play with 4 brainstorm in the flexi spot.
Went to a small tournament with this:
4x Cursecatcher
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Master of the Pearl Trident
3x Phantasmal Image
4x Silvergill Adept
4x True-Name Nemesis
3x Merrow Reejerey
2x Thassa, God of the Sea
4x Aether Vial
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
12x Island
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Mutavault
Round 1: MUC
Some kind of mono-blue control, islandwalk lords and cavern were too much. Not much to say, he conceded one on turn 3-4.
2-0
Round 2: Punishing Jund
I won both matches but both were really close, I could have lost easily. Grove is a real pain, however I had tested against it. Relics help but there were a bit disappointing...
4-0
Round 3: Bant
I won 2 and lost 1, he didn't realise he could kill the images with Scryb Ranger; if he had I would have lost for sure. Won third game with an opening hand withouth creatures, I don't know if I should have mulliganed: 2 Island, 1 Cavern, 1 Muta, 1 Jitte 1 Dazeand 1 Pithing.
6-1
Round 4: Miracle control
It was against a friend of mine who is a really good player, nothing to do here, I always lose.
6-3
Nothing impressive of course, but happy to beat Jund 2-0.
The deck seems unconsistent, you can lose to a combat trick or by drawing one more island rather than a lord...
I'm not happy with it and I don't think it's near to be a deck to beat, even with TNN in our deck and in the meta.
(Of course those thoughts are not only because of the tournament but because of the testing I do)
Today at my lgs i had a 10 man legacy tournament, the list i played was a modified verson of the one played by Hatch:
Creatures
3 TidalWarrior
2 Merrow reejery
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
3 Phantasmal Image
4 Silvergill Adept
3 True-Name Nemesis
29
11
3 aether vial
4 Daze
4 Force of will
LAND - 20
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
12 Island
Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
4 Swan Song
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vision Charm
Some numbers are odd because i don't own the 4th card(TNN, Phantasmal Image).
The Games
0 - 2 Agaisnt esper stoneblade: both rounds were close, but i lost anyway.
2 - 0 Against Sneak and Show: tbh the deck decided to stop working for my opponent.
0 - 2 Against UWR miracles: First match i didn't draw 6 lands in a row, 2nd round I draw 6 lands in a row.
0 - 2 Against esper DeathBlade: same as the first match.
Ps: sneaky question, can i animate a mutavult in the Atttack phase and then during the declare attacker step attack with it?
Thank a lot Dice Box
I only got back into magic 5 months ago after playing it casually 2 years prior. I am disorganized and regularly play out of order/don't do legal things. I am not serious-tournament worthy. But I am learning, because these misplays will absolutely 100% cost you the game. I am playing mono-u in standard, and I didn't realize I couldn't cast an overload cost with Jace, Architect of Thought's ultimate. Well, I learned that lesson quick-fast when I lost the game because I'd already picked the card, and couldn't choose another.
I also didn't realize that Phantasmal Image takes on the casting cost and colour of the creature (I thought it retained 1U) and so suddenly my match-up against affinity and goblins pre-board has gotten much better since I am currenting MDing 4 of them. Always learning all the time!
Right now, I'm torn over the 4 flexi spots in my deck. I initially had them filled with tech, but I decided I just really, REALLY want card advantage. My biggest concern is that if my board gets picked/torn apart against a tempo deck, I'm in a really bad position. I don't care if they get card advantage, as long as my dudes stay on the board, because I can outrace them. The reason I want cards is to rebuild after I've been blown out by STP, Liliana, Jace and bolt.
So I've right now gone 2 Sygg, and 2 Kira and it is virtually untested. Sygg for cards, and Kira for protecting my dudes. Kira should work as planned if I get lucky and draw her, but Sygg is the tricky one, because the question is how many cards will I really get out of him realistically? 1 or 2?