Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
strom
1) Elves:
-3 Jace
+ 1 EE
+ 1 Supreme Verdict
+ 1 Disenchant
I don't see how this is a MU one should take out Jace. Once you take out All the Jace, doesn't Miracle cards get clunkier? I would -1 CJ, -1 Plains
2) Jund:
- 4 FoW
-4 Counterbalance
+ 1 EE
+ 1 Disenchant (vs Library)
+ 2 Clique (vs Liliana)
+ 1 Flusterstorm (vs early hand disruption)
+ 1 Relic of P. (vs P. fire)
+ 1 Supreme Verdict (not sure, if this is correct)
+ 1 Counterspell
Doubt 1 Flusterstorm would make a difference, it can't counter Liliana or Choke. CB is your best option against PFire and cascade when game gets long. Against BUG Delver, you want to take out CB, this MU I prefer overloading enchantment approach.
5) Painter
-??
+ 1 EE
+ 1 Disenchant
+ 3 Clique
Not sure what the point of running Clique is. I rather put in Blue blast effect. This MU is hard in that they have lots of Red Blast effect, grindstone messes with our top 3 cards of library, and of course Blood Moon effect. I would consider take out maybe a Jace.
6) Maverick
- 4 FoW
+ 1 Supreme Verdict
+ 1 EE
+ 1 Disenchant
+ 1 Relic of P.
Questions: Would you bring in Clique to get rid of things like Batterskull? If so, what else to cut from the mb?
When you board like this, you better make sure you are not Teeg-locked. Yes I would bring in Clique, don't think we need Relic.
8) Infect
-??
-??
+ 1 EE
+ 1 Disenchant
+ 3 Clique
+ 3 Flusterstorm
Questions: I want to bring in these 8 cards, but which cards should leave the mb? Terminus, FoW and Swords have to stay. Counterbalance is not bad either…
This is a MU I would cut a number of Jace, you need to all the resource early game to deter Infect so you can get to mid game.
I skipped some MU because they are self explanatory.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Quote:
Originally Posted by strom
1) Elves:
-3 Jace
+ 1 EE
+ 1 Supreme Verdict
+ 1 Disenchant
I don't see how this is a MU one should take out Jace. Once you take out All the Jace, doesn't Miracle cards get clunkier? I would -1 CJ, -1 Plains
Not necessarily. The idea is that Jace is weak to Elves because they're a bunch-of-dudes deck that can constantly apply 1 to 2 points of pressure on Jace. Sure we can keep digging for removal to keep JTMS alive, but their deck has way more many dudes than we have actual answers. So we'll kill a few, and then more will come. And this repeats until we're out of removal. Keeping Jace alive is an unsustainable plan in the long run. I think Jace is good for finding secondary copies of Counterbalance, but in the face of Abrupt Decay and SDT-hate, that plan isn't as reliable. Also, JTMS doesn't help us stabilize as much as any of the other cards in the deck (minus Plains, I guess), so I'd rather be taking out JTMS instead of Council's Judgment. Is my logic sound?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I personally like Jace, due to the fact that he makes it much easier to find Terminus.
I don't plan on him winning me the game, just stabilizing. He is usually better at that than a single copy of Council's Judgement and without a question better than (at least) 1 plains.
On a unrelated note: What tokens do you use and what basic lands do you use?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Playtested against merfolk a lot this week. Tested agains the best shell against us: 4 standstill and 4 chalice main deck.
I am using 4 ponder list with this side:
2x peacekeeper
1x supreme verdict
1x Engineered explosives
3x Reb effect
1x counterspell
1x spell pierce
2x fluster
1x blood moon
3x vendilion
Game 1 (30%-70%) played 10 games
First game is VERY hard. The best plan I found is NOT counter aether vial and keep our FOW to ensure your entreat resolve fast. A fast Entreat is our only out in the first game.
Game 2 (60%-40%) played 20 games
They are playing the unfair game to lock us: Vial + Chalice + Standill + Counters. My plan A is ensuring peacekeeper. Plan B is slow down the game and resolve an entreat
Sideboarding:
+2 peacekeeper
+1 supreme
+1 engineer explosives
+1 spell pierce
+3 reb +1counterspell
-4 counterbalance (useless)
-4 ponder (they have 4 chalice)
-1 jace (die very easy)
Suggestions:
1. Do not FOW aether vial. Keep it to resolve peacekeeper, terminus and entreat. Counterspell or spell pierce is OK if you have more counters in hand
2. Keep your life as HI as possible. Do not hesitate using swords against a turn2 silvergil. Merfolks can easy deal 8-10 unblockable damage in a single turn, so you cannot afford any damage. Games usualy ends with you at very low life. (same goes to fetchlands)
3. Peacekeeper is much better than ensnaring bridge. Moat is even better but i don;t use it ;) I preffer peacekeeper cause they are useful against infect, sneak attack and reanimator.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AnziD
Not necessarily. The idea is that Jace is weak to Elves because they're a bunch-of-dudes deck that can constantly apply 1 to 2 points of pressure on Jace. Sure we can keep digging for removal to keep JTMS alive, but their deck has way more many dudes than we have actual answers. So we'll kill a few, and then more will come. And this repeats until we're out of removal. Keeping Jace alive is an unsustainable plan in the long run. I think Jace is good for finding secondary copies of Counterbalance, but in the face of Abrupt Decay and SDT-hate, that plan isn't as reliable. Also, JTMS doesn't help us stabilize as much as any of the other cards in the deck (minus Plains, I guess), so I'd rather be taking out JTMS instead of Council's Judgment. Is my logic sound?
Taking out one Jace is definitely fine, but the original post meant to take out all the Jace. I would prefer to leave 1 Jace in at the least. The point is not to keep Jace alive, the point is to find mass removal using Jace or put clunky Miracles cards back. For example, Reid Duke would have died many turns ago if he didn't use Jace-bounce and/or Jace-brainstorm in that PC game.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Taking out one Jace is definitely fine, but the original post meant to take out all the Jace. I would prefer to leave 1 Jace in at the least. The point is not to keep Jace alive, the point is to find mass removal using Jace or put clunky Miracles cards back. For example, Reid Duke would have died many turns ago if he didn't use Jace-bounce and/or Jace-brainstorm in that PC game.
Following up a Terminus with a Jace can be huge as well. If you can manage to stave off Glimpse / NO and get the elves player into topdeck mode, Jace is game over. A lot of times I find that Glimpse and NO isn't even game plan #1 post board, they'd rather play it safe and push small chunks of damage through early and often.
In this respect, you can misrepresent Jace as a looming threat, and try to prod your opponent into overcommitting to the board. Use Jacestorm to find more ways to clear off the table, rinse, and repeat. Not to say Jace isn't a threat, he definitely is, but if you can push your opponent towards dealing with it NOW rather than LATER, you can certainly press that advantage. A dryad arbor off a fetch can't kill jace, as a single +2 more than puts him out of range for this line.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quasim0ff
I personally like Jace, due to the fact that he makes it much easier to find Terminus.
I don't plan on him winning me the game, just stabilizing. He is usually better at that than a single copy of Council's Judgement and without a question better than (at least) 1 plains.
On a unrelated note: What tokens do you use and what basic lands do you use?
That's a fair reason. I think in Ein's list though, because we're on 4 Ponder, that finding Terminus without Jace is easy enough. Additionally, the removal that would be taking Jace's spot can also effectively "buy us a draw", giving us more time to find Terminus.
RE: Council's Judgment - I think it provides a lot to the matchup because it stops cards like Null Rod, Choke, and Pithing Needle, while also potentially being creature removal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Taking out one Jace is definitely fine, but the original post meant to take out all the Jace. I would prefer to leave 1 Jace in at the least. The point is not to keep Jace alive, the point is to find mass removal using Jace or put clunky Miracles cards back. For example, Reid Duke would have died many turns ago if he didn't use Jace-bounce and/or Jace-brainstorm in that PC game.
I can get down behind leaving in 1 Jace over Plains. Should we be worried about 19 lands against Elves?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hey everybody, i'm a long time lurker and i wrote a couple of posts here and there, i've been working on sideboard plans recently and i'd like to post here where i am with that work atm so if you have any suggestions you can post that here.
I'm testing this decklist now:
21 lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
36 other spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Dig Through Time
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgment
3 creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
SB: 1 Counterspell
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
Here we go with the sideboarding plans:
Ant: 8
Out
1 Swords to plowshares / Council’s Judgment
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
1 Jace
In
3 Flusterstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Counterspell
Swords to plowshares stays in so we can have an answer to Xantid Swarm, Dark confidant and co. If they have Young Pyromancer i'll keep Terminus in instead.
Burn: 6
Out
2 Dig Through Times
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Terminus
In
1 Counterspell
2 Vendilion
2 Fluster
1 Disenchant
Bug Nic Fit: 4 (Totally not sure on this one... any suggestions?)
Out
4 Counterbalance
In
2 Rest in Peace
1 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgement
Canadian threshold / Rug Delver: 7 ( i guess i should cut 1x Dig for 1x more Flusterstorm or 1x Vendilion)
Out
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
2 Jace
In
2 Rest in Peace
2 Flusterstorm
1 Council's Judgement
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
Disenchant enters here for Sulfuric Vortex, Null Rod, Pithing Needle..
Death and Taxes: 5
Out
1 Force
4 Counterbalance
In
1 Explosives
1 Disenchant
2 Vendilion/ 1 Vendilion 1 Judgment
Not so sure here, Vendilion vs. a deck with 3x Karakas rarely attacks or blocks, Judgment vs. Ports, Thalias etc, seems a little too heavy
Deathblade : 8
Out
4 Force
4 Counterbalance
In
2 Reb
1 Pyroblast
1 Disenchant
1 Council's Judgement
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Counterspell
1 Vendilion
Dredge: 8
Out
4 Counterbalance
1 Council's Judgement
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Dig Through Times
In
2 Rest in Peace
3 Flusterstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Vendilion Clique
Elves! : 3
Out
1 Council's Judgement
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
In
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Counterspell
This one's up in the air, i guess it's right to board 1x Disenchant or at least 1x Judgment for taking care of Choke, Library, Needles, Null Rod, but i totally don't know what to cut
Esper blade : 8
Out
4 Force
4 Stp
In
2 Reb
1 Pyroblast
1 Disenchant
1 Counterspell
1 Esplosivi
1 Council's Judgement
1 Vendilion Clique
Goblins: 5
Out
4 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
In
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Disenchant
1 Council’s Judgment
Vendilion here enters for removing Ringleaders from their hand
Infect: 6 ( any suggestions here?)
Out
2 Jace
1 Counterspell
1 Council’s Judgment
2 Entreat the Angels
In
3 Vendilion
2 Flusterstorm
1 Disenchant
Jund: 9
Out
4 Force of Will
1 Jace/ 1 Dig
4 Counterbalance
In
2 Rest in Peace
1 Council's Judgement
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
1 Counterspell
3 Vendilion Clique
Jund Nic Fit: 3 ( This is way up in the air)
Out
1 Counterbalance
2 Force of Will
In
2 Rest in Peace
1 Council's Judgement
I'd like to board in some Disenchants et similia
Loam: 9
Out
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
1 Dig Through Times
In
2 Rest in Peace
1 Disenchant
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Council's Judgment
1 Counterspell
Maverick: 4
Out
4 Force of Will
In
1 Disenchant
1 Council's Judgement
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Counterspell
Merfolks : 7
Out
1 Force ?
4 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
1 Jace
In
1 Esplosivi
2 Vendilion
2 Reb
1 Pyroblast
1 Judgement
Miracles : 11
Out
4 terminus
4 spiga
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Plains
In
2 Reb
1 Pyroblast
3 Vendilion
1 Counterspell
2 Flusterstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Council’s Judgment
Mud: 5
Out
4 Counterbalance
1 Entreat the angels?
In
2 Vendilion
1 Disenchant
1 Council's Judgement
1 Counterspell
Omnitell: 11
Out
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Plains
In
2 Red elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Flusterstorm
1 Disenchant
1 Counterspell
3 Vendilion Clique
Painters:Does anybody here have some experience?
Patriot: 6
Out
4 Force of Will
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Counterspell
In
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
2 Pyroblast
1 Council's Judgement
Pox: 6
Out
4 Terminus
2 Entreat
In
1 Disenchant
1 Counterspell
1 Judgement
1 Esplosivo
2 Vendilion Clique
Reanimator: 9
Out
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
1 Dig Through Times
In
3 Flusterstorm
2 Rest in Peace
1 Counterspell
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
Shardless Bug: 8
Out
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
In
2 Reb
1 Pyroblast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgement
2 Vendilion
Sneak and Show: 11
Out
4 Stp
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Plains
In
2 Reb
1 Pyroblast
3 Flusterstorm
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Disenchant
1 Counterspell
Team America: 8
Out
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
In
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
1 Council's Judgement
3 Vendilion
1 Disenchant
Tes: 8
Out
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Terminus
1 Jace
In
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Counterspell
3 Flusterstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Vendilion Clique
UWr Stoneblade: 7
Out
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Plains
2 Stp
In
2 Pyroblast
1 Esplosivo
1 Disenchant
1 Council’s Judgment
2 Vendilion Clique
Thank you for any suggestion or critique
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gros
Hey everybody, i'm a long time lurker and i wrote a couple of posts here and there, i've been working on sideboard plans recently and i'd like to post here where i am with that work atm so if you have any suggestions you can post that here.
I'm testing this decklist now:
Bug Nic Fit: 4 (Totally not sure on this one... any suggestions?)
Out
4 Counterbalance
In
2 Rest in Peace
1 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgement
Red blast comes in vs. any deck you expect Jace from, IMO.
Quote:
Canadian threshold / Rug Delver: 7 ( i guess i should cut 1x Dig for 1x more Flusterstorm or 1x Vendilion)
Out
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
2 Jace
In
2 Rest in Peace
2 Flusterstorm
1 Council's Judgement
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
Disenchant enters here for Sulfuric Vortex, Null Rod, Pithing Needle..
Vendilion Clique. Clique is great for baiting countermagic and killing geese
Quote:
Death and Taxes: 5
Out
1 Force
4 Counterbalance
In
1 Explosives
1 Disenchant
2 Vendilion/ 1 Vendilion 1 Judgment
Not so sure here, Vendilion vs. a deck with 3x Karakas rarely attacks or blocks, Judgment vs. Ports, Thalias etc, seems a little too heavy
Clique is bad. Don't bother with it. Judgment is good, and so is counterspell, believe it or not.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gros
Death and Taxes: 5
Out
1 Force
4 Counterbalance
In
1 Explosives
1 Disenchant
2 Vendilion/ 1 Vendilion 1 Judgment
Not so sure here, Vendilion vs. a deck with 3x Karakas rarely attacks or blocks, Judgment vs. Ports, Thalias etc, seems a little too heavy
The DnT matches always go long, and you can expect cataclysm from them. Force and CSpell are good.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
My 2 cents
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gros
Burn: 6
Out
2 Dig Through Times
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Terminus
In
1 Counterspell
2 Vendilion
2 Fluster
1 Disenchant
1. Don't like clique,she dies to everything.
2. Burn players generaly try to next level us and remove all creatures.
My strategy: -4 terminus + 1 counter + 3 fluster +1 disenchant
[B]Canadian threshold / Rug Delver: 7
Out
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
2 Jace
In
2 Rest in Peace
2 Flusterstorm
1 Council's Judgement
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
1. Cliques are good blockers and eventually a finisher
2. Entreat is hard to resolve due mana denial + stifle + counters
Think our best plan is deploy counterbalance and win with jace.
My strategy: -4fow -2entreat -1counterspell -1dig -1jace +2v.clique +2rip +3fluster +1council +1engineered
Deathblade : 8
Out
4 Force
4 Counterbalance
In
2 Reb
1 Pyroblast
1 Disenchant
1 Council's Judgement
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Counterspell
1 Vendilion
- I keep all counterbalances. They usually runs only 2 abrupt decay
- Removals are not that good here. We can cut some
- love clique in this mach. They usualy don't use plowshares in g2
My strategy: -2terminus -1plowshares -4fow -1ponder +3rebs +1council +1engExp 1counterpell +2v.clique
Thank you for any suggestion or critique
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
order
My 2 cents
Vs Burn:
Everything that makes their combo (20->0) less reliable is good. You can get 1 (or perhaps 2) burn spells for 1 spell, which is very good.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
@order Vendilion vs. Burn is needed to kill our opponent, we protect it with cb(without cb top we cannot survive against burn) Terminus stays in vs eidolon
I'm scared about your plan vs. RugDelver only 3 wincons and 2 dies to bolt all 3 dies to reb
Keeping Cbs vs. New lists decay light might be right, however this Sb plan is almost the Ein's one
@exallium which changes would you make to fit in Cliques against RugDelver?
@Quasimoff ok so i will not board in Cliques vs. D&T and I'll keep all 4 FoWs boarding in counterspell and Judgment too
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Under most circumstances, you beat rug by stabilizing and resolving cb+top, entreat is risky as they can sandbag stifle and blow you out while jace digs for cb/top and keeps you ahead
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quasim0ff
On a unrelated note: What tokens do you use and what basic lands do you use?
I use APAC basics (Sunflower plains) und a spanish Serra token.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gros
@order Vendilion vs. Burn is needed to kill our opponent, we protect it with cb(without cb top we cannot survive against burn) Terminus stays in vs eidolon
I'm scared about your plan vs. RugDelver only 3 wincons and 2 dies to bolt all 3 dies to reb
Keeping Cbs vs. New lists decay light might be right, however this Sb plan is almost the Ein's one
@exallium which changes would you make to fit in Cliques against RugDelver?
@Quasimoff ok so i will not board in Cliques vs. D&T and I'll keep all 4 FoWs boarding in counterspell and Judgment too
Second dig and am entreat. I don't like dig and rip in the same config
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Ok, thanks, I'll test that out.
Regarding elves, how do you usually board? it seems to me that i have way too little slots to cut
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gros
Regarding elves, how do you usually board? it seems to me that i have way too little slots to cut
This is how I normally board (3 Jace, 4 Ponder, no Digs):
-1 Force
-1 Plains
-1 Entreat
-1 Jace
+1 Explosives
+1 Disenchant
+1 Verdict
+1 Containment Priest
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
will be streaming again at 7:30 EST - www.twitch.tv/anzi104 - for those interested.
EDIT: Today did not go so well. Went 2-2, winning round 1 vs miracles and round 2 to storm. Lost rounds 3 to miracles and round 4 to deathblade where I misclicked and let a true name resolve with entreat on top. I'll be back tomorrow at 2:00 EST most likely.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
As a budget option, how well does the RiP/Helm version stack up?
Moving to a new area and hopefully will be able to dust off my old legacy decks, but I'm missing Jaces and most dual lands.
I was rocking RiP/Helm with 2x hallowed Fountains and fetches to minimize energy field getting blown up, but don't know if it's viable in today's metagame.
