[Deck] The Rock

Went 5-2 today at the SCG Denver Legacy Open. Good enough for 18th out of ~80. Same list I've been playing for a while with some minor changes:


4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Siege Rhino
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
2 Mox Diamond

1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
3 Savannah
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 2 Containment Priest


List still feels solid overall. Deathrite standoffs are super lame. Rhino and carpet are a house.

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

Went 5-2 today at the SCG Denver Legacy Open. Good enough for 18th out of ~80. Same list I've been playing for a while with some minor changes:


4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Siege Rhino
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
2 Mox Diamond

1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
3 Savannah
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 2 Containment Priest


List still feels solid overall. Deathrite standoffs are super lame. Rhino and carpet are a house.

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So basically top 16, mucked on breakers? Seems good. Congrats! I think the colours are very strong right now :) No hand disruption in the main...thoughts?

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Originally Posted by sdematt

So basically top 16, mucked on breakers? Seems good. Congrats! I think the colours are very strong right now :) No hand disruption in the main...thoughts?

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Yeah I ended up being at the very bottom of the 12-pointers, with 2 16s and I think 7 15s. A little disappointing since I lost a round 2 game against BUG Delver that went turn 1 Deathrite, turn 2 Waste, Thalia. He flooded out, including double Waste, and I never drew another land. I got a bit lucky in the last round against Painter though, he didn't realize Arbor is still a creature under Moon effects and sent his Magus on a death march when I was basically locked out.

Didn't really miss discard main. Every Legacy deck just seems so redundant and/or packed with cantrips that the only time I care about a specific spell is against combo, and I really hate drawing discard late in the game. My thoughts when building this list were to just have as few dead draws as possible. Thalia and Teeg give me a chance against combo game 1. Not a great chance, but they're good in other matchups as well.

Mox is just a concession to the fact that I really want to hit 4-5 mana consistently, and the occasional explosive start is cool. Still, I may drop them and go to a 3/3 split with Hierarch and Deathrite, or hell, maybe 2/4 with Sylvan Caryatid. DRS is so good when left unmolested, but yesterday he mostly played the role of holding off other Deathrites, and Ooze is just better at that.

I may also look to replace Goyfs, or at least go down to 2. Between DRS or Rest in Peace showing up in every. fucking. game., the guy just isn't the threat he used to be. Probably cut one to put the second Ooze main, and another for...something.

Edit: Here are my matchups, in order:

Round 1: Grixis Delver 1-2
Round 2: BUG Delver (w/Stilfenought) 0-2
Round 3: DDFT 2-1
Round 4: Shardless BUG 2-0
Round 5: RUG Delver 2-0
Round 6: D&T 2-0 (hooray for last minute Stony Silence!)
Round 7: Rw Imperial Painter 2-0

This is kind of around the deck I want to play irl. I play junk fit on mtgo so I understand some aspects of this archetype.

I have a semi-ridiculous question: seeing as the rock refers to BGx, what about a blue splash for the usual suspects?
Like a Blue rock or Rocking Blues? Not necessarily force but baleful, brainstorm, ponder?
At first, it seems like a worse shard less but I believe that deck is a bury my opp in value and hope to get there. I want a smooth drawing Bob goyf throw down with decay and their homey Drs. Probably some lily, library. Definitely 4 wasteland.

How ignorant/stupid/naive am I to suggest this?

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

Rockin Blues

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What's most likely to happen is that over time it'll morph into Shardless BUG, BUG Control (planeswalkers, Deed, etc..), or BUG Delver.
I think it used to be BGx; but I think this thread is just for BGw now. Maverick is GWb generally, though sometimes it's GWr. Same goes for DGA as it's BWg; occasionally BWr (but that has its own thread.)

The problem with adding blue is it gets it's own thread and becomes a DTB, thereby not being a part of this thread anymore anyway :P. If you think you can engineer a BGu without going to BUg or GUb, by all means; but I doubt it. Also, 4 wastes with Liliana, Strix, and Decay may end up with minor issues.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

What's most likely to happen is that over time it'll morph into Shardless BUG, BUG Control (planeswalkers, Deed, etc..), or BUG Delver.
I think it used to be BGx; but I think this thread is just for BGw now. Maverick is GWb generally, though sometimes it's GWr. Same goes for DGA as it's BWg; occasionally BWr (but that has its own thread.)

The problem with adding blue is it gets it's own thread and becomes a DTB, thereby not being a part of this thread anymore anyway :P. If you think you can engineer a BGu without going to BUg or GUb, by all means; but I doubt it. Also, 4 wastes with Liliana, Strix, and Decay may end up with minor issues.

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Understood. Thank you for the response. I think I am trying to make team America into the Rock.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

Went 5-2 today at the SCG Denver Legacy Open. Good enough for 18th out of ~80. Same list I've been playing for a while with some minor changes:


4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Siege Rhino
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
2 Mox Diamond

1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
3 Savannah
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 2 Containment Priest


List still feels solid overall. Deathrite standoffs are super lame. Rhino and carpet are a house.

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This is so close to the deck I wanna play IRL. I think Goyfs are strong beatsticks, but you have room to shave down to 2 or 3. This gives you room for a vindicate/pulse as catch-all insurance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warden

This is so close to the deck I wanna play IRL. I think Goyfs are strong beatsticks, but you have room to shave down to 2 or 3. This gives you room for a vindicate/pulse as catch-all insurance.

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It would make much more sense to shave a Knight and 1-2 Rhinos than a couple of goyfs IMO

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

I may also look to replace Goyfs, or at least go down to 2. Between DRS or Rest in Peace showing up in every. fucking. game., the guy just isn't the threat he used to be. Probably cut one to put the second Ooze main, and another for...something.

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Meren?

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Originally Posted by tescrin

It would make much more sense to shave a Knight and 1-2 Rhinos than a couple of goyfs IMO

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Possibly. Unless you want to reduce your dependence upon the GY. Trimming 1 Knight and 1-2 goyfs gives you room to add something non-GY based like Smiter or Meren that's got a decent ass and can be zenith'ed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

Understood. Thank you for the response. I think I am trying to make team America into the Rock.

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America Rocks!.dec

4 colour Rock = Tombstone, you young whippsnappers. Basically, you just shoved Brainstorm into this deck.

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warden

Possibly. Unless you want to reduce your dependence upon the GY. Trimming 1 Knight and 1-2 goyfs gives you room to add something non-GY based like Smiter or Meren that's got a decent ass and can be zenith'ed.

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Meren is directly gy dependent. D'oh!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warden

Possibly. Unless you want to reduce your dependence upon the GY. Trimming 1 Knight and 1-2 goyfs gives you room to add something non-GY based like Smiter or Meren that's got a decent ass and can be zenith'ed.

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But by the time we're leaving 4-drop Goyfs in the main; why exactly isn't it just better to gain CA and inevitability from SFM?
He's basically Maverick that replaced SFM and equips with Goyfs and Rhinos, but wants to cut the goyfs.

I mean, he did well... but do we know that Rhinos had anything to do with it? I'd be curious for a report (which he may have already supplied elsewhere); but I have to imagine that Rhino is not better than just equipping and having a QPM in the main.

I do agree with him that he's too grave heavy. The fact he did that well is impressive (but as I said a page ago, we have a lot of RiPs here.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

4 colour Rock = Tombstone, you young whippsnappers. Basically, you just shoved Brainstorm into this deck.

-Matt

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Skip blue. Go pfires and bloodbraid. I wanna see that magic christmasland that is Junk + Jund

Nah I haven't written a report. Maybe I will but I didn't really take notes so it would be mediocre at best. Rhino won almost every game he showed up in, especially in multiples. I can't tell you how great it feels to resolve carpet then back to back Rhinos against Shardless. I really can't say enough good things about the guy, but here are some of the key points:

• The life swing is huge, it speeds up your clock and lets you be more aggressive with Library.
• Trample is also highly relevant right now. Pyromancer, Mentor, Strix, Shardless Agent, Snapcaster...all this little shit that your opponents can use to keep themselves or their planeswalkers in the game. Literally won the round against Shardless by just going over a Strix for lethal.
• He's also just a pain in the ass to deal with. No Bolt, no Decay.
• Having a creature with 0 graveyard dependence is nice. Rest in Peace is everywhere Deathrite isn't. Thanks to Rhino I was able to ignore RiP against Painter and D&T and hold up my Decays for more important targets.

Between maindeck Deathrites, sideboard RiP, and chump blockers, Goyf just wasn't a reliable threat in almost any match. SFM is probably the most likely replacement, I just built the deck to be really aggro, but I'm not seeing the speed I was hoping for because of the reasons above, so she's worth another look. I really want to put the second Ooze in the main though.

FWIW it plays more like Zoo than Maverick. Redundant threats vs. protection/toolbox and all that.

Cheese, what would you do to insert SFM into the deck (since a straight swap means you wouldn't get equipment)? Would you shave down on Knights and Rhinos to make room or pull from elsewhere?
SFM means you can effectively put in hierarchs (work well with SFM for mana and to carry stuff)

@Cheese: conversely, how many times has a Goyf been a game changer/winner? 'Negative bias' has much more powerful psychological effect than a positive experience. That's just the way the brain is wired. So is it possible you're over-emphasizing the few bad times, when RiP is pissing on your Goyfs, and ignoring the more frequent good times when your Goyfs are doing what Goyfs are supposed to do... smash face?

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Originally Posted by Hmmm_Really?

@Cheese: conversely, how many times has a Goyf been a game changer/winner? 'Negative bias' has much more powerful psychological effect than a positive experience. That's just the way the brain is wired. So is it possible you're over-emphasizing the few bad times, when RiP is pissing on your Goyfs, and ignoring the more frequent good times when your Goyfs are doing what Goyfs are supposed to do... smash face?

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I think the only round where he actually did much damage was against DDFT, because I Decayed my own Diamond to get him up to 5. He's also good at keeping opposing Goyfs off your back, but I'm not sure Ooze isn't just better there since he can nerf opposing Deathrites and Knights at the same time.

@Warden - not really sure. I think I would only play a couple equipment and a couple SFM. I still like the idea of having 1-2 Goyfs around for when you just 'gotta go fast' though, and I still want that second Ooze main. Depending on your meta you could move the maindeck Teeg to the board, or cut him and Pridemage and go down to 2-3 Zeniths. Or I suppose you could cut a Knight, I don't have a big land toolbox or anything. I do really like her ability for ramping out a Rhino and various other trickery.

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

I think the only round where he actually did much damage was against DDFT, because I Decayed my own Diamond to get him up to 5.

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Your experience is hugely foreign to me. I find that most of the time against other Goyf decks, it's down to who draws their removal or second goyf. I've never had issues with DRS (even with DRS on both sides) keeping Goyfs small; and most of the time have an Artifact, Planeswalker, or Enchant in the grave (I like to run with Revoker, Library, Lily, etc..) making even my typical goyf larger than your typical rhino.

That said (and deleting my pro-goyf rant), it looks like we play with different philosophies. Without Liliana, Deluge, Revoker, and Equips; I can see how your spot removal is just that. My spot removal tends to be numerous and thusly aim to lock the opponent out and it's odd if I don't see 3-4 pieces (which actually makes the size of my dudes less relevant except for defense and closing time.) Currently I've gone haywire in a 4c version running 4 Plow, 3 Decay, 3 Pfire, 3 Lili, Jitte/SoFai, 3 discard, 3-4 Revoker, and (essentially) a Reclamation sage. The literal "try to answer every permanent you can get while putting threats out" is just feels a lot better to me. Never tried a "big zoo" approach before.

This difference in perspective/playstyle may be where most of our differences come from; in which case probably disregard what I was saying (not that you were going to follow it anyway lol.)