[Deck] The Rock

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Originally Posted by tescrin

Your experience is hugely foreign to me. I find that most of the time against other Goyf decks, it's down to who draws their removal or second goyf. I've never had issues with DRS (even with DRS on both sides) keeping Goyfs small; and most of the time have an Artifact, Planeswalker, or Enchant in the grave (I like to run with Revoker, Library, Lily, etc..) making even my typical goyf larger than your typical rhino.

That said (and deleting my pro-goyf rant), it looks like we play with different philosophies. Without Liliana, Deluge, Revoker, and Equips; I can see how your spot removal is just that. My spot removal tends to be numerous and thusly aim to lock the opponent out and it's odd if I don't see 3-4 pieces (which actually makes the size of my dudes less relevant except for defense and closing time.) Currently I've gone haywire in a 4c version running 4 Plow, 3 Decay, 3 Pfire, 3 Lili, Jitte/SoFai, 3 discard, 3-4 Revoker, and (essentially) a Reclamation sage. The literal "try to answer every permanent you can get while putting threats out" is just feels a lot better to me. Never tried a "big zoo" approach before.

This difference in perspective/playstyle may be where most of our differences come from; in which case probably disregard what I was saying (not that you were going to follow it anyway lol.)

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Like I said, my list plays more like Zoo than Maverick or old Rock lists. Unfortunately "BGx midrange" is a pretty fucking huge umbrella but it's better than a new thread for every nuance IMO. I'm not saying I've found "The One True Way" or something. Just another riff on the color combination that's been working for me and it suits my play style.

I actually still like Goyf a lot, which is why I auto-included 4 copies when I built the deck. I just kept finding that he was one of the easiest cuts postboard, usually 1-2 of, and to me that's grounds for a closer look. I think I'll probably start small and just go 3 Goyf/2 Ooze main and see how that feels.

Another awesome thing about Rhino: he laughs at JTMS so hard.

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

I can't tell you how great it feels to resolve carpet then back to back Rhinos against Shardless.

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Hah, can confirm the great feeling.... I just did that online! Won a close first game but Carpet and Rhino made it a cake walk in G2, even though he cascaded a blind Visions (lucky f*cker) and then decayed my Jitte (yes, I've squeezed the Equipment package into a 61 card deck). Seriously considering taking to FNM Legacy this week.

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

I think the only round where he actually did much damage was against DDFT, because I Decayed my own Diamond to get him up to 5. He's also good at keeping opposing Goyfs off your back, but I'm not sure Ooze isn't just better there since he can nerf opposing Deathrites and Knights at the same time.

@Warden - not really sure. I think I would only play a couple equipment and a couple SFM. I still like the idea of having 1-2 Goyfs around for when you just 'gotta go fast' though, and I still want that second Ooze main. Depending on your meta you could move the maindeck Teeg to the board, or cut him and Pridemage and go down to 2-3 Zeniths. Or I suppose you could cut a Knight, I don't have a big land toolbox or anything. I do really like her ability for ramping out a Rhino and various other trickery.

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I like the synergy of zenithing into big green things. I also adore Toxic Deluge, which fits so well into your list. If Goyf was lackluster, I wonder if SFM is the solution or if it dilutes the deck more. SFM itself is just a tutor with legs, which does A LOT for a "drop things and attack" strategy.

**update: I gold fishes and tinkered with Cheese's main deck. It's actually pretty solid and I'd agree it feels like Zoo than Maverick or Junk Rock. Noble Hierarchy was really nice in place of mox sequence-wise. I had openers of double hierarch into rhino that look fantastic. Other times I drew hands of fat after fat. The problem with the deck is its lack of interaction. I think Thalia and 1-2 more should be discard and/or removal. Maybe Thalia could become tidehollow (faux discard with legs)? If I don't have decay in hand, I can't really interact with a pesky permanent on be board. Likewise, if the fat I drop on the table is dealt with, I lose a ton of momentum.

I tried several creature configurations and the default 4 goyf "works" if you wanna be aggressive like Zoo. I think I'd shave a KotR or Goyf out of the list entirely. Part of me also missed Liliana, but then you're going back to pure junk and not this threat heavy concept. Liliana would be a strain on Cheese's colors

I started with a DGA based list, but found myself overrun in some early games and unable to end games in a time effective manner. I swapped out Lingering Souls (which, while awesome, almost always played a passive role) for Tarmogoyfs and ended up with this list.

4 Deathrite Shama
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library

4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath

SB:
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Manriki Gusari
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Extirpate
1 Karakas
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Choke
1 [open slot]

The addition of Goyfs led the DGA thread to point me here. My biggest concern is beating BUG, as it is consistently my most difficult matchup. While Mirran Crusader is the obvious choice for that sideboard slot, I'm concerned about BUG's fairly large number of sweepers. So my primary candidates for that spot are Lingering Souls and Nahiri.

General advice and BUG advice are very welcome.

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Originally Posted by Mirrislegend

I started with a DGA based list, but found myself overrun in some early games and unable to end games in a time effective manner. I swapped out Lingering Souls (which, while awesome, almost always played a passive role) for Tarmogoyfs and ended up with this list.

4 Deathrite Shama
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library

4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath

SB:
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Manriki Gusari
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Extirpate
1 Karakas
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Choke
1 [open slot]

The addition of Goyfs led the DGA thread to point me here. My biggest concern is beating BUG, as it is consistently my most difficult matchup. While Mirran Crusader is the obvious choice for that sideboard slot, I'm concerned about BUG's fairly large number of sweepers. So my primary candidates for that spot are Lingering Souls and Nahiri.

General advice and BUG advice are very welcome.

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Do you mean beating bug Delver or Shardless? Since if you're looking to fight Shardless, Feast and Famine and Lingering Souls are your go-to. I also wouldn't mind seeing some Grips in here somewhere ;) Plus, lone Karakas makes me weep. Otherwise, a very solid 4x list :)

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Do you mean beating bug Delver or Shardless? Since if you're looking to fight Shardless, Feast and Famine and Lingering Souls are your go-to. I also wouldn't mind seeing some Grips in here somewhere ;) Plus, lone Karakas makes me weep. Otherwise, a very solid 4x list :)

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Shardless. The 8x MD removal, 3 Liliana, and Bskull package make Delver an easy matchup.

KGrips? Why?

Lone Karakas with no Knight is sad Karakas. However, the sideboard is for cards that are very impactful in a specific matchup and are significantly less relevant in other matchups. I can't think of any cards that hate on Gristlebrand and Emrakul better than Karakas. But Karakas is shit in every other use.

Lingering Souls runs into their sweepers (MD and SB) and Sword runs into their Decays+SB. This is a hard choice.

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Originally Posted by Mirrislegend

Lone Karakas with no Knight is sad Karakas. However, the sideboard is for cards that are very impactful in a specific matchup and are significantly less relevant in other matchups. I can't think of any cards that hate on Gristlebrand and Emrakul better than Karakas. But Karakas is shit in every other use.

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His comment on lone Karakas is precisely because it's not very useful; especially in the Sideboard where your deck with no cantrips has even less chance of seeing it during the relevant matchups. I realize you could say that about a lot of sideboard cards, but I think it holds more true for Lands or similar since you can easily run it maindeck or not at all. It's just not powerful enough without Revoker and it's not powerful enough to stop Sneak Attack or a well timed Through the Breach.

Ensnaring Bridge is better. They can't attack even with Sneak Attack. Requires bounce or removal. Can be casted through blood moon. Isn't countered by blood moon. You can still win via DRS or Jitte Beats as you remove their fat with Lilianas or swing with several dudes at a time.

E Bridge is also tutorable.


EDIT: Let's just say that I think the whole sideboard needs a complete overhaul. Even 3 Choke feels excessive.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

EDIT: Let's just say that I think the whole sideboard needs a complete overhaul. Even 3 Choke feels excessive.

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E Bridge sounds brilliant. And I'm totally open to suggestions. What would you change and why?

EDIT: I'll include my thought processes for reference

- SoFI is in the sideboard because I found that I don't tutor for it often but it is still better than every other equipment other than BSkull and Jitte
- Manriki Gusari is the one-slot answer to all Stoneforge decks
- Gaddock Teeg is great against classic combo and against Miracles
- Extirpate is to complement the large discard suite. Discard alone doesn't beat combo decks. Extirpate turns that discard into a real backbreaker.
- We've discussed Karakas
- Zealous Persecution beats Elves, Maverick, and Storm/Belcher post board
- Choke is relevant against any blue deck that is not a delver deck

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

Like I said, my list plays more like Zoo than Maverick or old Rock lists. Unfortunately "BGx midrange" is a pretty fucking huge umbrella but it's better than a new thread for every nuance IMO. I'm not saying I've found "The One True Way" or something. Just another riff on the color combination that's been working for me and it suits my play style.

I actually still like Goyf a lot, which is why I auto-included 4 copies when I built the deck. I just kept finding that he was one of the easiest cuts postboard, usually 1-2 of, and to me that's grounds for a closer look. I think I'll probably start small and just go 3 Goyf/2 Ooze main and see how that feels.

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I like the list, and like the Junk/Zoo-approach. A quick couple of questions:

- I know KotR is good, but being truely GY-independent would something like Loxodon Smiter not be better?
- Have you considered using Veteran Explorer as a ramp in opposite of Mox D? Granted, you would probably have to play Cabal Therapy... Veteran's ramp-effect would also greatly nerve the effect of Thalia, I suppose.
- I'm toying with Painful Truths, and what could be the 'best' deck for the card, but that would perhaps be too cute.

Anyway, cool deck and congrats on the results.

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Originally Posted by Chatto

I like the list, and like the Junk/Zoo-approach. A quick couple of questions:

- I know KotR is good, but being truely GY-independent would something like Loxodon Smiter not be better?
- Have you considered using Veteran Explorer as a ramp in opposite of Mox D? Granted, you would probably have to play Cabal Therapy... Veteran's ramp-effect would also greatly nerve the effect of Thalia, I suppose.
- I'm toying with Painful Truths, and what could be the 'best' deck for the card, but that would perhaps be too cute.

Anyway, cool deck and congrats on the results.

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Knight definitely loses some oomph postboard against RiP, but shutting off the graveyard doesn't shut off her ability, which can still be extremely relevant. I used her several times at that event to ramp out a Siege Rhino, and she can still fetch Wasteland if you're trying to hold someone down under Thalia, nullify opposing Wastelands, and provide a shuffle effect for Library.

Not crazy about Explorer, mostly for the reason you pointed out. Thalia and Wasteland are my disruption. I suppose you could go for discard and basiscs instead, but I'm not really sure that's worth it over two slots.

Not crazy about truths. The deck is pretty redundant so you're more interested in card quality than quantity. I also tend to not deploy more than one threat/turn, as I'm usually holding up mana for StP/Deathrite/Decay/Ooze. The curve is also already pretty high and I don't think I'd want another 3-drop.

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

Went 5-2 today at the SCG Denver Legacy Open. Good enough for 18th out of ~80. Same list I've been playing for a while with some minor changes:


4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Siege Rhino
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
2 Mox Diamond

1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
3 Savannah
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 2 Containment Priest


List still feels solid overall. Deathrite standoffs are super lame. Rhino and carpet are a house.

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Have you thought of playing any number of Painful Truths? Or is Zenith/Knight a consistent enough engine to find what you need?

I really feel like people are underestimating Truths. Sure, a good shell is a good shell, but drawing cards is never bad. I think any flavour of black deck should be running it, except if you're Tempo like, say, BUG Delver. Anything midrange and up, I'd run it. Esper Truths, Grixis Truths, Junk Truths....

http://cdn.meme.am/instances2/500x/3561614.jpg

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I really feel like people are underestimating Truths. Sure, a good shell is a good shell, but drawing cards is never bad. I think any flavour of black deck should be running it, except if you're Tempo like, say, BUG Delver. Anything midrange and up, I'd run it. Esper Truths, Grixis Truths, Junk Truths....

http://cdn.meme.am/instances2/500x/3561614.jpg

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I was just testing this list:

Creatures:
2X Siege Rhino
3X Knight of the Reliquary
1X Loxodon Smiter
1X Qasali Pridemage
3X Scavenging Ooze
4X Deathrite Shaman
4X Veteran Explorer

Spells:
4X Painful Truths
4X Cabal Therapy
1X Maelstrom Pulse
3X Abrupt Decay
4X Green Sun's Zenith
4X Swords to Plowshares


Land:
2X Bayou
1X Forest
1X Karakas
4X Marsh Flats
1X Plains
2X Savannah
2X Scrubland
1X Swamp
4X Verdant Catacombs
3X Wasteland
1X Bojuka Bog

SB:
2X Containment Priest
2X Duress
2X Gaddock Teeg
2X Golgari Charm
2X Maelstrom Pulse
1X Stony Silence
1X Toxic Deluge
2X Tsabo's Web
1X Umezawa's Jitte

I felt like it was *almost* there. Painful truths was a house, as was scooze. Cabal Therapy and Veteran Explorer was a nifty little combo, too.

Did 4 truths feel good?

In decks like this, I'm hesitant to run too much of a card that costs 3 and doesn't affect the board.

I mean, maybe it was just super gas all day for you, but 4 looks a little heavy for my tastes.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrius

4X Veteran Explorer

1X Forest
1X Plains
1X Swamp

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Think you want more than 3 basics if running 4 explorer, otherwise the 2nd or 3rd one you draw is pretty horrible. I'd probably run single copies of the duals and atleast 5 basics.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrius

-list/

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Apart from the fact it's more a NicFit-list, I am on a similar path. Not sure I'm supposed to post my list here or in the NicFit-thread. With Veteran Explorer giving you 'free mana' I too found Painful Truths good. Currently I'm testing three.

Personal preference is to not-corrupt this thread with being a secondary Nic-Fit thread. While I've been a Nic-Fit player from time to time, but they are different decks. If I'm in the Maverick thread, I don't usually suggest Goyfs or Bobs, because they're antithetical to the deck's premise. Just IMO

I think if you are into more than one Veteran in the deck, time to switch to Nic Fit thread.

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Originally Posted by T-101

Did 4 truths feel good?

In decks like this, I'm hesitant to run too much of a card that costs 3 and doesn't affect the board.

I mean, maybe it was just super gas all day for you, but 4 looks a little heavy for my tastes.

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It worked out fine. I would probably cut to three and cut one or two knights for goyfs. Probably cut a veteran explorer for another goyf, add a basic.

Thanks for the suggestions, all.