Miracle Control

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useL
If you read my post your Containment Priest does nothing in many of the matchups I bring Relic in from the board. Containment Priest is actually quite horrible against for instance storm where Relic of Progenitus is quite efficient.

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I don´t see how relic is really helpfull against a deck which can win without the graveyard in multiple ways. Yes you are right it makes the past in flames kill problamatic vut assumin we are discussing games post the first they have other ways to win and even can play around relic. Also we have Cliques, blasts and a hell of counter Magic after the boarding so we should not have problems against them anyway.

The priest instead of the rlic is a good idea because it kills things we can´t win against normaly. It makes the matchups for Sneak, Renanimator, Dregde, World Gorger Control and all lines of cheating creatures in play a lot easier.
it also helps against DNT because it makes their vial useless which is actually pretty good.

Both cards are good. But I don't feel good without any pure graveyard hate. The lands matchup can be a pain in the ass. Meaning an opponent loaming around for minutes accomplishing nothing. Which can be wasting time and annoying.
Generally I feel like I have 2 many cards 2 side in often. And it comes down 2 ur philosophy and maindeck.
But I play a split between them.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

This is assuming Terminus is set up by Brainstorm during your draw step rather than with Top. It's very common to have top Revokered in this match up.

Anyway to each their own. Dig is definitely better vs combo. I'm confident my sideboard can give me sufficient help vs combo so im dedicating as much mainboard towards winning the fair matchups instead.

I just came back from a testing session against Bug Shardless and I'm very happy with Punishing Fire, it single handedly won me 2 games I would.have outright lost without it. Took down Jace and countless weenies and I would have been run over by the Shardless, Baleful Strix value train without it. I stole a 3rd game with an early Entreat for 2. Punishing fire was by far the Mvp in this matchup.

Tested against lands as well, Punishing fire was surprisingly useful as a 2 cc card to lock out life from the loam with Counterbalance. Against combo, the casting cost of Punishing Fire is surprisingly useful. It can take down Exhumes, Infernal Tutor etc etc. However Dig is for sure better in this matchup.

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whats your list with p-fire look like?

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Originally Posted by Teveshszat

I don´t see how relic is really helpfull against a deck which can win without the graveyard in multiple ways. Yes you are right it makes the past in flames kill problamatic vut assumin we are discussing games post the first they have other ways to win and even can play around relic. Also we have Cliques, blasts and a hell of counter Magic after the boarding so we should not have problems against them anyway.

The priest instead of the rlic is a good idea because it kills things we can´t win against normaly. It makes the matchups for Sneak, Renanimator, Dregde, World Gorger Control and all lines of cheating creatures in play a lot easier.
it also helps against DNT because it makes their vial useless which is actually pretty good.

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Relic is good against storm. It cycles itself and pretty much downsizes their cabal rituals, along with invalidating past in flames. Even if they have other ways to win, it cuts off one of their wincons, which is enough of a reason for me to board it in.

Ah I see than its clear why you think you want relic. I for my part want cards in my sideboard which interact with the highest number of winconditions possible.
Relic only answers 1 way and hinders the other not really because you can just cast more spells and play grindy against Miracles. So against a good Storm
player Relic will not help you to win because they also can play the long game with you. This includes the inclusion of Sensei´s Top on their Sb etc.

For that reason you don´t need Relic but direct counterspells and if they go for the Pyromancer 1 or 2 sweeper to deal with it. So nope relic is not a card
I would concider boarding against Storm and cutting off one Wincondition is not enough against a Storm deck because it will find a second in time.

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Originally Posted by Ltj999

whats your list with p-fire look like?

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one or two pages back

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Originally Posted by Teveshszat

Ah I see than its clear why you think you want relic. I for my part want cards in my sideboard which interact with the highest number of winconditions possible.
Relic only answers 1 way and hinders the other not really because you can just cast more spells and play grindy against Miracles. So against a good Storm
player Relic will not help you to win because they also can play the long game with you. This includes the inclusion of Sensei´s Top on their Sb etc.

For that reason you don´t need Relic but direct counterspells and if they go for the Pyromancer 1 or 2 sweeper to deal with it. So nope relic is not a card
I would concider boarding against Storm and cutting off one Wincondition is not enough against a Storm deck because it will find a second in time.

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Actually, I have had relic on board against storm numerous times and very often they have told me afterwards that without that I would have been dead. Sometimes it is way better with a permanent they cant handle than a counterspell they can just simply duress away.

I would sure as hell prefer to have a relic in my opening 7 against storm than any of the following cards (entreat, terminus, jace, swords to plowshares) which means that there are a BUNCH of slots to fill with sideboard cards.

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Originally Posted by useL

Actually, I have had relic on board against storm numerous times and very often they have told me afterwards that without that I would have been dead. Sometimes it is way better with a permanent they cant handle than a counterspell they can just simply duress away.

I would sure as hell prefer to have a relic in my opening 7 against storm than any of the following cards (entreat, terminus, jace, swords to plowshares) which means that there are a BUNCH of slots to fill with sideboard cards.

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I always keep in 2 StP post board as getting xantid swarm off the table if it resolves is of paramount importance.

I prefer to keep in Terminus. It kill Swarm, but also deals with T1 Goblins before you would die.

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

I prefer to keep in Terminus. It kill Swarm, but also deals with T1 Goblins before you would die.

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Engineered Explosives does the same thing and can be used even though you lack top/brainstorm etc. It also blows up LED like a boss =)

I also play Engi. TBF, I've not had to deal with Xantid Swarm for ages. My local Storm guy hates it.

Bit late on this one, but I played the following list to a 6-2 finish at the SCG Legacy IQ in houston this past weekend

Creatures (3)
3 Snapcaster Mage

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (21)
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

Spells (33)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Ponder
4 Terminus

Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Counterspell
1 Disenchant
3 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Entreat the Angels

More or less Schronegger's list that he posted on SCG a few weeks ago (minus the sideboard, I feel compelled to put pithing needle in literally every deck I play, I've no idea why)

(this is all from memory, all I have is my lifepad but I didn't keep detailed notes)

Round 1: Infect 2-0
g1: Am able to plow his glistener elf in response to an invigorate, and then terminus away his inkmoth nexus, then killed him with a Jace
g2: Opponent commits real heavily to the board (noble, glistener elf, and then activates his inkmoth nexus iirc), I then terminus him, untap, jace and fateseal him out of the game

My opponent was brand new to the deck, as I don't feel this matchup should be that easy, but I'll take it

Round 2: a bye...nah just elves 2-0 (splashing white for teeg)
g1: stick a turn 2 counterbalance, no top but between ponder/brainstorm I am able to keep him from being able to do too much with it, eventually I get a top, terminus his board and stick a jace
g2: I keep a hand with 3 counterbalances and he blows up all 3 (rec sage and 2 decays), he manages to stick a Teeg and some dudes and starts beating, I cast 3 brainstorms in a row eventually getting a swords and setting up a terminus on his turn, untap, play jace and fate seal him out of the game

Round 3: BUG Delver (Hymns and Lillys) 0-2, some guy who knows WAAAY too much about humility, cool guy tho
g1: I kept a hand with 2 lands (Island, Tundra), ponder, and top (either was in my hand or I drew it, was on the draw iirc), he counters my first top and I proceed to not draw a single land for several turns in a row, at the point I draw my second top (and a Jace), I'm so close to dead I am forced to 1 for 1 each of his threats and am unable to completely control the game, he eventually sticks 2 DRS, and am unable to kill both
g2: Sylvan Library and Pithing Needle are very good magic cards

Round 4: BUG Delver (Jim Davis list) 2-0
G1: 2 Lands, Ponder, Top, Swords, Snapcaster, Brainstorm, I remember this because I looked at it and thought "how can I lose?", sure enough it got there, answer everyone of my opponents threats, eventually sticking a Jace and taking him out of the game
G2: Hand wasn't quite as good but close enough, game took a lot longer to end as he wouldn't simply let me kill him

Round 5: BUG Delver (Hymns and Lillys) 1-2
G1: I have a top and 2 lands in play, he casts a hymn, I respond by casting a swords to plowshares on his goyf..right into daze, his hymn resolves (hits a terminus and a land), tilted by my mistake, I top, see nothing good and scoop
G2: Plays out how I think the matchup should, I lean on top to survive his disruption and swords his threats and jace him out of the game
G3: We are in a scenario were we are both top decking, he draws a needle, I have no response, at this point we are both literally living off the top of our decks, he manages to get a goyf and I ponder into nothing.

I feel like I should've won that match but alas

Round 6: Sneak/Show 2-1, local player and known troll, so was enjoyable despite playing against one of the more boring decks in the format
G1: Emrakul matches up real well against Swords to plowshares
G2: I get counterbalance lock and chip away at his health with clique while I sculpt a hand with 3 Flusterstorm, 2 force of will and 1 counterspell
G3: see above

Round 7: Shardless BUG 2-0
G1: He mulls to 5 and I get to do whatever I want
G2: Bit more interesting, he never hits an ancestral visions with his shardless agents, and I end up 3 for 1 him with my terminus, eventually I jace him out of the game

Round 8 RUG Delver 2-0
G1: Top>Counterbalance>Terminus>I win, I've literally never been able to beat RUG delver that easily, and I am including my long stints on Maverick
G2: Not as easy as he counters my counterbalance, unfortunately he is never able to draw a red source (despite casting 4 ponders and 3 brainstorms) while I am at 6-8 life, I terminus on his turn, he double dazes twice, leaving him with 3 cards and no lands, untap, entreat and he scoops

Good enough for 13th and $100

Deck was super consistent all day, snapcaster mage was a bro, I got to beat the two rough match ups, and my round 5 opponent was a bro and spotted me a pen (actually all of my opponents were pretty chill)

Hey guys,

I'm currently not in the situation(still in Hawai'i) to test/contribute/anything but I've taken a quick glimpse into the thread here and there in the last weeks and it makes me happy seeing that so many of you are successful with the good list(s). Keep up the good work, and congratulations to every single one of you.

Greetings

There is a lot of cloudpost decks on MTGO right now. What are you guys doing? Peacekeeper? Humility? Blood Moon? Change deck?

Time to sideboard Dwarven Miner?

Do you mean MUD or what?

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Blood Moon seems good enough. They can't cast Spells.

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Originally Posted by ghost_tmd

There is a lot of cloudpost decks on MTGO right now. What are you guys doing? Peacekeeper? Humility? Blood Moon? Change deck?

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If you're talking about the Primeval Titan and not the MUD lists, the first step is to admit that it's a terrible matchup. Having played it a ton from the other side of the table, here's a couple of things I noticed when playing miracles:

Blood Moon is fine but not great. The lists have Krosan Grips, Repeals and sometimes even GSZ targets to deal with it, and those are in to pester your Counterbalances anyway. They also have basics to play them. Don't build your gameplan around sticking a Blood Moon, it won't work. Same goes for Humility, Peacekeeper or any other singular hate card.

You will lose the long game. There is hardly anything that classifies as a stabilized boardstate against them. As odd as it may sound, but you're the beatdown in this matchup. Bring in your creatures, don't be afraid to flash in a Snapcaster for low value to start beating down. Be prepared to have to deal 32ish damage. Be prepared to expose yourself by playing entreats for 3 when the time calls. Clique is great against SnT, frequently better than countering it and running into a hardcast on the Titan next turn. Meddling Mages are fantastic but very rarely seen in Miracles sideboards these days. This is one of the decks Miracles just can't realistically outcontrol, so you often need to take a different approach to tackling the matchup.

Don't bother with Terminus, everything you can sweep away with it has already done the damage at that point. StP is fine to stop a Titan going out of control or to clear the path for your ground beaters if you have any to bring in.

Pay attention to what exactly they are doing in the first game, outside of the core there's a lot of variations on how to build the deck. Do they play GSZ? Are they UG or mono green? Splashing black, or red or white (all of that is a thing)? What for? Do they have Phyrexian Revokers? Show and Tell? Try to get an idea of what exactly they are up to to find a unique approach for sideboard games.

The one thing the deck really has to fear against Miracles is either an overwhelming creature army paired with some disruption for their key spells, or a lethal EoT Entreat. They will play accordingly, and so should you. It's your biggest bluffing tool, try to make use of it when it doesn't cost you much of anything to pretend.

Finally, don't be upset to lose. Miracles and slower Stoneforge decks are THE reason to bring out Primeval Titans in legacy. If they make up too large of a share of the metagame pie, reconsidering your deck for the moment might not be the worst idea. I don't think there's a good sideboard plan for the core Miracles deck for this matchup that doesn't cost you significant percentage points against the rest of the field.

Have yet to play the matchup from the Miracles side of the table, but it's something I dread, so I can't give you any insight on that point of view.

Is Extract for Emrakul too greedy? Also can be used for Teeg or storm win cons.

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Originally Posted by LLCoolDave

If you're talking about the Primeval Titan and not the MUD lists, the first step is to admit that it's a terrible matchup. Having played it a ton from the other side of the table, here's a couple of things I noticed when playing miracles:

Blood Moon is fine but not great. The lists have Krosan Grips, Repeals and sometimes even GSZ targets to deal with it, and those are in to pester your Counterbalances anyway. They also have basics to play them. Don't build your gameplan around sticking a Blood Moon, it won't work. Same goes for Humility, Peacekeeper or any other singular hate card.

You will lose the long game. There is hardly anything that classifies as a stabilized boardstate against them. As odd as it may sound, but you're the beatdown in this matchup. Bring in your creatures, don't be afraid to flash in a Snapcaster for low value to start beating down. Be prepared to have to deal 32ish damage. Be prepared to expose yourself by playing entreats for 3 when the time calls. Clique is great against SnT, frequently better than countering it and running into a hardcast on the Titan next turn. Meddling Mages are fantastic but very rarely seen in Miracles sideboards these days. This is one of the decks Miracles just can't realistically outcontrol, so you often need to take a different approach to tackling the matchup.

Don't bother with Terminus, everything you can sweep away with it has already done the damage at that point. StP is fine to stop a Titan going out of control or to clear the path for your ground beaters if you have any to bring in.

Pay attention to what exactly they are doing in the first game, outside of the core there's a lot of variations on how to build the deck. Do they play GSZ? Are they UG or mono green? Splashing black, or red or white (all of that is a thing)? What for? Do they have Phyrexian Revokers? Show and Tell? Try to get an idea of what exactly they are up to to find a unique approach for sideboard games.

The one thing the deck really has to fear against Miracles is either an overwhelming creature army paired with some disruption for their key spells, or a lethal EoT Entreat. They will play accordingly, and so should you. It's your biggest bluffing tool, try to make use of it when it doesn't cost you much of anything to pretend.

Finally, don't be upset to lose. Miracles and slower Stoneforge decks are THE reason to bring out Primeval Titans in legacy. If they make up too large of a share of the metagame pie, reconsidering your deck for the moment might not be the worst idea. I don't think there's a good sideboard plan for the core Miracles deck for this matchup that doesn't cost you significant percentage points against the rest of the field.

Have yet to play the matchup from the Miracles side of the table, but it's something I dread, so I can't give you any insight on that point of view.

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Thank you very much for the insights man. Yesterday night I was playing the 2 man legacy queues and was paired against a UG Cloudpost, a Monogreen and a GW. Lost the 3 games in a roll and i think I got very upset for that, that is the reason for my last post. Every game seems impossible to win. As you said I countered Show and Tell only to get hitted buy a Primeval Titan hardcast next turn. There was one game I though I could win, agains UG version. I was beeing the beatdown with vendilion clique and entreated for 3 angels EOT, but he had a flusterstorm i didnt forsee.