[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

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Originally Posted by tadiou

Re: Above.

Ichneumon Druid is absolutely hilarious. I approve. I also think the Wolfir Silverheart (I mean, I do love that card v. much) would be much better suited for a Thragtusk. Thragtusk is literally one of the best cards hands down that you can play with 4 GSZ in any format that has miracles & burn. Is Peacekeeper your out vs Sneak and Show? What about Omni-Tell?

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The reason Wolfir is a big one in this deck is Lingering Souls; though thragtusk is a good suggestion!
Peacekeeper can be an out to sneak and show, but also vs very aggressive decks. Omni-tell is not a much-used deck around here, but I suppose Qasali/Peacekeeper could be an out.
The MU I hate the most are unfair decks like combo. Normally after SB-ing in a lot of hate, I would stand an alright chance, so I am curious what Living Wish will do (little experience with it, as of yet).

Hello again all,

Just been wondering about the card Gaze of Granite. Since it can hit planeswalkers, could Pernicious Deed be swapped out for it? Do the facts that it requires two skulls to cast and that it remains in your hand until you cast it make it unplayable? I'm not asking because I'm on a budget. I've got the Deeds so I'm just curious. (I assume that since no one has adopted it I've got my answer already.)

@Gtf

I was actually asking Tadiou if he (or she) was at SCGCincy, since it seemed as if, from the way he or she spoke, that he or she was. In any case, are you still at 61 cards in your list? I've moved back and forth between two Decay mainboard and one (between 61 and 60 cards) and I was wondering if you've encountered higher variance in your 61-card list. I have found space for a third (or second) in the board, as it just seems indispensable in some matchups.

Edit: Also, are you still running Jitte?

One reason is that deed can come down on T3 and you can activate it later on. Gaze, all of the mana has to be paid in that one turn, which makes it very susceptible to Daze/Spell Pierce or something. Plus having deed just sit on board vs Miracles to stop entreat or something is also a common play

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Originally Posted by gigapatrick

Hello again all,

Just been wondering about the card Gaze of Granite. Since it can hit planeswalkers, could Pernicious Deed be swapped out for it? Do the facts that it requires two skulls to cast and that it remains in your hand until you cast it make it unplayable? I'm not asking because I'm on a budget. I've got the Deeds so I'm just curious. (I assume that since no one has adopted it I've got my answer already.)

@Gtf

I was actually asking Tadiou if he (or she) was at SCGCincy, since it seemed as if, from the way he or she spoke, that he or she was. In any case, are you still at 61 cards in your list? I've moved back and forth between two Decay mainboard and one (between 61 and 60 cards) and I was wondering if you've encountered higher variance in your 61-card list. I have found space for a third (or second) in the board, as it just seems indispensable in some matchups.

Edit: Also, are you still running Jitte?

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I'm down to 60 and no abrupt decays main, 1 in the board. It is really good in some matchups but I think it's necessary to max out on the best cards that jump start your engine (4 explorer, 4 brainstorm, 4 Deathrites). It's certainly a close call. I've cut Jitte since I found that whenever I was bringing it in, I didn't have card that I was thrilled to be boarding out for it. In other words, I think it is mostly helpful in matchups that are already good (except maybe elves). So I found the space more necessary for other things.

Gaze being able to hit planeswalkers is interesting. However I still think the downside of not being able to invest the mana over 2 turns makes it worse enough that I'd rather have deed. I haven't actually tested it.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

One reason is that deed can come down on T3 and you can activate it later on. Gaze, all of the mana has to be paid in that one turn, which makes it very susceptible to Daze/Spell Pierce or something. Plus having deed just sit on board vs Miracles to stop entreat or something is also a common play

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^Pretty much this

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I've been on 61 for as long as I've been on Nic Fit (approaching 3 years now), and have never had an issue with it. There've been a lot of debates throughout the thread on it -- general consensus is that there isn't really a consensus. Mostly comes down to personal taste...some people would rather have the slightly higher % of having a given card in your opening hand / drawing that card, some would rather have an extra copy of something, an extra land, an extra toolbox option, or what-have-you.

My thought is that when you play a deck with 4 Tutors like green sun and such, having the extra green sun target in the main for random situations will be alot better than the extra few percentage points you lose when running 61

Anyone have any thoughts on mcdarbys PW BUG fit list? Anyone know him and could get him to post some thoughts?

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...g/daily/ur/299

Selvala is extremely playable for GBW variants.

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The idea of a BUG Walkers (or GBW Walkers) list has been tossed around in here for basically as long as Nic Fit has been a thing. There's a few things that I don't agree with, but obviously he's had a lot of success with it.

@Gigapatrick

I wasn't at SCG Cincy, but I should (employment gods be willing), be at SCG Somerset/New Jersey. I have the car, the room, the decks, i just have to figure out if I'll have a job by then so I could actually afford it.

I'm just hoping that when I go there I'm not going to be faced up vs burn for 1/3rd of my matches.

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Originally Posted by benofzongo

Anyone have any thoughts on mcdarbys PW BUG fit list? Anyone know him and could get him to post some thoughts?

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I tested it a bit. My main problem with it was that after landing a jace, your brainstorms are surprisingly poor. You often draw into redundant planeswalkers and lands. The mana curve is high, and explorer doesn't totally solve this issue. The Combo matchups are also pretty bad since the deck is full of cards that don't do anything (innocent blood, veteran explorer) so you have to devote a ton of SB spots to fixing it.
I ultimately gave up on the deck because I just think Pod is better and doing the kind of thing it wants to do. But before I gave up, I made the following changes which I think helped:
Add Garruk Relentless. It has great synergy with other planeswalkers, is a nice removal spell, and gives you a reasonable win condition. I'd recommend playing 2 in the deck and cutting down to 1 or 0 karns.
I think I cut the ponders/hymns (maybe left 1 ponder) for 3 Deathrite Shaman. The card helps you accelerate your planeswalkers if veteran explorer isn't showing up and is just a generally great card in the format. I think the anti-syngergy with deed and innocent blood is not that bad, and you have cabal therapies to sacrifice them to as well and jace to make up the card advantage.
The deck also has a serious problem with Creeping Tar Pit, so you might try squeezing in a wasteland or two.

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Originally Posted by GtF

I tested it a bit. My main problem with it was that after landing a jace, your brainstorms are surprisingly poor. You often draw into redundant planeswalkers and lands. The mana curve is high, and explorer doesn't totally solve this issue. The Combo matchups are also pretty bad since the deck is full of cards that don't do anything (innocent blood, veteran explorer) so you have to devote a ton of SB spots to fixing it.
I ultimately gave up on the deck because I just think Pod is better and doing the kind of thing it wants to do. But before I gave up, I made the following changes which I think helped:
Add Garruk Relentless. It has great synergy with other planeswalkers, is a nice removal spell, and gives you a reasonable win condition. I'd recommend playing 2 in the deck and cutting down to 1 or 0 karns.
I think I cut the ponders/hymns (maybe left 1 ponder) for 3 Deathrite Shaman. The card helps you accelerate your planeswalkers if veteran explorer isn't showing up and is just a generally great card in the format. I think the anti-syngergy with deed and innocent blood is not that bad, and you have cabal therapies to sacrifice them to as well and jace to make up the card advantage.
The deck also has a serious problem with Creeping Tar Pit, so you might try squeezing in a wasteland or two.

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I'll echo this. The deck basically looks like bugstill Nic Fit edition, which is fine and good, but I think that more can be done. Losing Green Sun's Zenith makes sense since Explorers are the only creatures, but losing Zenith also seriously hinders your ramp development since you'er reliant on naturally drawing / Brainstorm for Explorers, which is subpar. I would consider Nature's Lore as the backup ramp source -- possibly Sakura-Tribe Elder, but I like the idea of grabbing duals with Lore to fix the divergent color requirements. The full 4 Bloods and Deeds make sense and I like those. I'd actually like to see a Deluge or a Damnation and maybe a pair of Decays as an additional removal, or perhaps to diversify the suite to solve more problems better.

Gitaxian Probe is strong and all, but it almost seems like a crutch to me. I hit the majority of my Therapies unassisted (admittedly, I've been playing with Therapy for wayyyyy too long now). Probe does help keep the blue count up for FoW postboard, which is good, but it's just too low-impact imo. Same with the Ponders and Hymns -- they feel too much like McDarby is trying to acquiesce to "accepted legacy standards," which I disagree with. Nic Fit isn't your standard legacy deck -- it doesn't function the same way, and trying to shoehorn in these low-impact support cards are going to end up with too many games where you run out of gas. Ponder is reasonable card selection, but I'd value Top more. I guess he might be still be trying to hedge blue count?

Running only 1 Baleful Strix is criminal in this deck IMO -- it blocks for planewalkers for days, cantrips, and is blue. I would also like to see 1-2 Batterskull in the 75 (adding 1 to 76, but that's my preference). This is also exactly the type of Nic Fit I would run an Aetherling in. 4 Jaces is 1 too many -- I would happily go down to 3 and incorporate a new 'walker of some kind, possibly Garruk, Primal Hunter (I don't think that Relentless does what this deck wants to do). Kiora is a strong contender as well, as is Tamiyo. I don't particularly like Liliana of the Veil, but I understand why he's running it and can accept it.

I disagree with GTF RE@Karn: I think that Karn is definitely fine. I'd agree to back him off to a 1-of, but I'd definitely keep him. He ranges from being either a generic pain in the ass to being genuinely insurmountable depending on the board state when he drops, and he's definitely worth it.

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I just the tl;dr is that I feel that his list is too focused and has too many low-impact cards. I'd look to diversify the threat base, add a backup ramp engine, and make the deck a little more Nic Fit and a little less every other BUG legacy deck in existence.

Thanks for the comments folks, very helpful. I've toyed around with the pod version and would like to run it eventually, but I think for now it's above my pay (read "skill") grade. I may be running Punishing Fit this weekend at the LGS though, wondering if anyone has any updated thoughts on that, especially status post TNN.

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Originally Posted by benofzongo

Thanks for the comments folks, very helpful. I've toyed around with the pod version and would like to run it eventually, but I think for now it's above my pay (read "skill") grade. I may be running Punishing Fit this weekend at the LGS though, wondering if anyone has any updated thoughts on that, especially status post TNN.

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I am toying with the following list since a few weeks.
No sanctioned events yet with it, but my results are above the average:

3 Swamps
3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Grove of the burnwillow
4 Verdant catacombs
1 Wooded foothills
2 Bloodstained mire
1 Phyrexian tower

4 Veteran explorer
3 Deathrite shaman
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Eternal witness
1 Huntmaster of the fell
1 Thragtusk

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Vraska the Unseen
2 Garruk Primal Hunter

3 Sensei's divining top

3 Pernicious deed

3 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt decay
4 Cabal therapy
4 Green sun's zenith

SB:
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ensnaring bridge
2 Surgical extraction
1 Pyrosalve
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Beast within
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Slaughter games

@Ralf:

I like that list a lot, actually, although I would suggest a few changes:

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-1 Bloodstained Mire
+1 Volrath's Stronghold

-1 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Primeval Titan

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or
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-1 Bloodstained Mire
+1 Badlands

-1 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Thragtusk

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sideboard:

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-1 Thoughtseize
+1 Slaughter Games

-1 Beast Within
+1 Batterskull

-1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Golgari Charm

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There's two maindeck packages you can opt for. Adding Titan/Tower gives you access to the pseudoNightmare engine of the Two Towers, with Titan for easy lategame access. However, with 1 Witness, 1 Huntmaster, 1 Thrag, and 1 Titan, you don't have a ton of high-impact options to get back with Two Towers, and realistically, I'm not sure how great it would really be for you. Thus, the second option of making your mana a bit better and adding a second Thragtusk.

Thragtusk is the guy that 9/10 I want to be casting. He does basically everything that we want to do in Nic Fit, including and especially making blue players cry. Also, he hands down plays the best with Garruk, Primal Hunter of any monster. I played Jedi Jund in standard with those two, and it was very powerful -- they pair very well with each other.

The Badlands is because there will be times where you'll have Forest Fetch and you'll want to grab a B/R source.

2 Deathrites gives you 6 t1 ramp creatures, which I think should be enough, especially with 4 GSZ to ferret them out.

Something that I thought of but did not list was Chandra, Pyromaster. She -might- be good enough as a spicy 1-of to back up GPH in the CA department, but she would need testing and I'm hesitant to recommend her without actually knowing if she's good enough.

Otherwise, I like your maindeck a lot.

For sideboard, I would hands down run the first Golgari Charm over the first Deluge ... and probably the second Charm over the first Deluge as well. It's faster and more flexible, and you already have 3 Deeds as sweep....not sure you need another 'hard' sweeper. A faster, 'soft' sweep should do what you want there -- it still kills TNN and Elves, but has added flex vs Miracles and suchlike.

Beast Within is interesting and I'm reluctant to cut them. Normally that would be the first place I'd look to make space, but I think that they're definitely worth trying. That said, I think 2 is enough -- between Top and GPH (and oodles of removal), you'll find them when you need them. That opens the way for a Batterskull, which I'm rapidly coming to believe is one of the premier sideboard options (or possibly even maindeck options) for Nic Fit of most varieties. It's god against anything fair deck, and can help blindside Burn which can randomly be a challenging matchup.

2 Thoughtseize brings you to 6 t1 discard plays, which should be sufficient to have a reasonable chance of seeing one. I would much rather have the second Slaughter Games over the 7th 1cc discard. Games is simply the best anti-combo card we can run. It doesn't matter what type of combo they are, or if they have Force, or Misdirection, or anything. It simply says, "No."

One thing that I feel I should point out is that you are a little weak to Leyline of Sanctity -- but realistically, white versions are the only ones who can actually fight combo in multiple axes effectively. At least the only combo deck that usually runs Leyline is Sneak and Show, and you have 2 Bridge and 2 REBs for them, as well as Surgical to screw up their Intuition.

Like I said, definitely like it -- those are just what I would change.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

@Ralf:
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Like I said, definitely like it -- those are just what I would change.

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Thank you Arianrhod !

I'll definitely test your recommendations.
I'll opt for the 2nd Thragtusk package and as for the SB:

+1 Golgari
+1 Batterskull
-1 Toxic deluge
-1 Beast within

However, as a longtime player of one of your Valakut list (the one with 2 SLG main deck), I must confess I was never impressed much by SLG
4 CMC is a lot when it comes to fight "fast combo" and even with a BW package (so that we have virtually 7 copies of it), it was often "too late".

So basically I reached the conclusion that:
1) Thoughtseize is here for 2-3Turn Combo.deck
2) Slaughter is here for Control/Slower Combo.deck

But maybe it's just me...

Last question: "Batterskull", why ?

Except for Burn, I see it more as a win-more card against fair.deck but maybe you have some personal experience with it being huge against certain archetype you could share with me ?

PS: yesterday night I lived the dream:
T1= forest, Veteran
T2= phyrexian tower -> GPH...

Who said saucy ?

I once went t1 Vet t2 Tower -> GPH vs Loampox. He was VERY unhappy with me.

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I don't disagree that Games is slow, but it's an absolute lights-out when it hits. With Thoughtseize/Therapy, they can just draw into another [something that kills you]. Surgical removes that possibility from [target], but it needs the setup of [something] having already been countered/discarded. Games takes names, not prisoners. I agree with not running more than 2 copies of it -- heck, when I'm siding 3 Games in Scapewish, I usually only board two in and leave the third for Wish (exceptions exist, obviously, but in general). That being said, I think that the 2nd copy is important because as slow as it is, you really do want more of a chance at seeing one than a singleton provides. You likely won't have the ability to durdle with Top for too long, so it's not like you can dedicate 2-3 turns to digging for it.

As for Batterskull...

This dips a little into theoretical, but consider the number of times that you've seen Stoneblade decks dominate games with an invincible Batterskull. Nobody plays Krosan Grip anymore, so it's not like the damn thing can actually be gotten rid of shy of discarding it after making them bounce / countering it on the way down. Usually this involves 5 mana + active SFM (1W vial, 3 bounce). However, SFM dies, a lot, and Stoneblade decks frequently hit 8 mana (3 bounce, 5 recast). And even in these situations, where they're essentially time-walking themselves to keep replaying Skull, it still dominates.

Now think about Nic Fit.

I've said before (and will doubtless again) that Time is the single most important resource for Nic Fit as a deck. With enough Time, we can engineer a board state that is strictly insurmountable for most decks. This is one of the reasons that 12post and MUD are nightmare matchups for us -- they have the same ethos, but they go bigger than we do (well, MUD goes as big as we do, just faster at the cost of more instability, but you know what I mean).

Batterskull gains 4 life per swing, with vigilance. I typically use the "red standard" of Bolt when evaluating Time -- 3 life = 1 turn. Thus, on -strictly offense-, ignoring defense entirely, Batterskull gains 4 turns worth of Time per 3 attacks, or 1.25 turns per attack.

Vigilance throws this even more.

Consider a fairly standard RUG scenario. They have a 4/5 Goyf, a few lands, and a Bolt and maybe a useless Daze or Spell Pierce or some other bullshit in their hand. We have a pile of mana, a Batterskull, and say like 12 life. What are their options?

They can swing -- but if we don't block, we swing back to gain the 4 that we just lost back. This traps them into needing to draw a 2nd creature or us just completely locking them out of combat, with us drawing into more threats / removal / threat of Deed each turn. Alternatively they can swing and we can block, in which case we can just bounce/re-cast the Skull. In this scenario they're tying up our mana, but we're actively gaining life as opposed to just staying at 12. We're gaining 4 life/turn in that scenario, which as established above translates to a -1.25 on their clock in our favor.

Or, you know, they could not swing -- in which case we've already won. We're not spending resources, and we've bought multiple draw-steps while they search for some way to deal with the problem...which is probably a singleton Ancient Grudge that they didn't board in anyway. Their other options are digging for a Delver or finding a 2nd Tarmogoyf. That's it. Those are the only profitable options for them.

On top of all of that, you run Punishing Fire. You have the option of blocking their Goyf, gaining 4 life, then Punishing the Goyf to finish it off......and -then- bouncing and replaying the Skull.

It also has another 'mode' where you can actually use it like an equipment. Consider equipping Skull to a Garruk token. That makes a 7/7 lifelink vigilance. Only the halest of Goyfs will punch through that, and, again, you have vigilance where they don't, so at worst you're Mazing their Goyf every turn. 7 lifelink is 2.25 Time per attack. Over 3 turns, (say they had a chump blocker or two), you'll have gained 6.75 Time. If you're playing vs a fair deck (which you are, otherwise Skull wouldn't be sided in), how are they going to effectively deal with that? The things Nic Fit can do in almost 7 turns are profound, to put it mildly.

I'd urge you to proxy a Skull (if you don't own one) and test it out. See for yourself what you think of it -- I can spout theory nonsense all day, but practical experience is what convinces a pilot that a card is good, not theory.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I once went t1 Vet t2 Tower -> GPH vs Loampox. He was VERY unhappy with me.

I'd urge you to proxy a Skull (if you don't own one) and test it out. See for yourself what you think of it -- I can spout theory nonsense all day, but practical experience is what convinces a pilot that a card is good, not theory.

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Ah. I bet you won that game (against Loampox). Anyway, Pox/Loam.deck are usually very unhappy when an explorer enters the battlefield !

It was against JUNK for me (my opponent was very unhappy too...).

Well, thanks for the "SKULL" thing. I'll test it.

Against what kind of deck will you side it in ?

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Ah. I bet you won that game (against Loampox). Anyway, Pox/Loam.deck are usually very unhappy when an explorer enters the battlefield !

It was against JUNK for me (my opponent was very unhappy too...).

Well, thanks for the "SKULL" thing. I'll test it.

Against what kind of deck will you side it in ?

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Basically anything that doesn't involve Tendrils of Agony or Show and Tell. Blade, Jund(k), Delver of various stripes, etc. Probably comes in vs Dredge since it laughs at Ichorids.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

I am toying with the following list since a few weeks.
No sanctioned events yet with it, but my results are above the average:

3 Swamps
3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Grove of the burnwillow
4 Verdant catacombs
1 Wooded foothills
2 Bloodstained mire
1 Phyrexian tower

4 Veteran explorer
3 Deathrite shaman
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Eternal witness
1 Huntmaster of the fell
1 Thragtusk

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Vraska the Unseen
2 Garruk Primal Hunter

3 Sensei's divining top

3 Pernicious deed

3 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt decay
4 Cabal therapy
4 Green sun's zenith

SB:
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ensnaring bridge
2 Surgical extraction
1 Pyrosalve
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Beast within
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Slaughter games

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This looks like a really sweet build!

How do you like Vraska? Seems like a good inclusion--Protects herself, has a removal effect. Do you find she's able to finish games out with her Ultimate? It seems like she would have to go unanswered for a relatively long period of time, but even if not, the removal could be worth it.

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@Arianrhod: Batterskull seems awesome in fair matchups. What are you generally boarding out for it? Are you bringing in 1 or 2?

I also really liked your thoughts on the Veteran Planeswalkers deck! I guess my biggest question with it is: could it be a real thing with enough tinkering? I guess the question there is, do creature-based Nic Fit/Pod lists just work better than Planeswalker-based ones? It seems like McDarby's done pretty well with his list, and your suggestions seem like they would help make the deck a bit more focused. I guess I just really like the idea of a Legacy Superfriends deck? Maybe that's dumb :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by taco-hell

This looks like a really sweet build!

How do you like Vraska? Seems like a good inclusion--Protects herself, has a removal effect. Do you find she's able to finish games out with her Ultimate? It seems like she would have to go unanswered for a relatively long period of time, but even if not, the removal could be worth it.

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Vraska has been discussed multiple times in the past.
Some like it, some not.

Personally, I like it "Hot" :D

You can see her as another liliana but with a "license to kill". It can close games and close out them fast.
Funny it is, I found that her +1 is what brings the more "power" to the table because it forces your opponent to react. Period.

In Magic christmas land, Vraska kills 1 turn sooner than GPH.

Anyway, make your own opinion and try to play Vraska in one of your list (or try mine if you want)