Don't get the mana from drain until main phaseQuote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
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Don't get the mana from drain until main phaseQuote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Solitary Confinement and an Enchantress are in play, bro.Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
Miracles is a kind of a non argument against drain, since without draw replacement effects, you do not get the mana till after the miracle trigger.
It could help Miracles cast a Entreat already in hand, but if they have the resources pay the 3 white to hard cast Entreat, and hold back more mana for counter backup then the game has already gone on long enough that it does not matter.
The worst case here is like 3 angels on turn 3 after your opponent delves out a big threat when you have 2 mana open, which is likely a mistake even without drain in the format.
The real argument against drain is the tempo boost from draining then dropping something with he mana like a sword, and t1 delver, t2 drain t3 sword equip looks great, the problem is the tempo decks either will not run enough cards that they can drop from drain for that to be a common play, and it ends up being a little better then a card they do not play because they want to be dropping threats not keeping mana open early.
Any deck that could run enough cards to drop off drain reliable will be running to many Sol Lands to reliable have a turn 2 drain.
What is left are counter playing control decks, which aside from Miracles are weak and need the boost.
To me the scariest play that would be reliable with Mana Drain is dropping a turn 3 JtMS, instead of a turn 4 JtMS.
The way I look at it, there are some scary plays with drain, but for the most part the decks that can make those plays can not afford to add Drain because it does not work with the rest of the decks play style. The biggest real problem is it leads to bad feels when someone makes a misplay and runs into the card when they should not because hey were not reading the board state properly.
I've been saying Drain could come off for a while now. It would probably enable a viable control deck that isn't Miracles. High Tide might want it I guess, and you can use it as a weird delayed ritual, but really I think the best thing it does is make a turn three Jace, which isn't anything the format couldn't handle. You can already make a turn three Jace pretty easily if you want to.
Drain is on the fringe of being safe, with availability concerns being why it's still on the list imo.
Likely won't change much were it to be unbanned, unbanning would only make it harder to get into legacy (as now you're going to play drain over counterspell as there isn't much reason not too) so no real reason to unban it.
Pumping Drain mana into Fact or Fiction, Consecrated Sphinx or SFM + hardcarst Sword in nothing you would at least consider critical?Quote:
Originally Posted by thefringthing
I'm pretty sure a Mana Drain + Mentor deck would be pretty busted.
Mana Drain + Mentor + SDT seems pretty sweet indeed... :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
I at least know I would play the shit out of that :DQuote:
Originally Posted by CorwinB
SORRY. I was going to say "hardcast Terminus" but then the awesomeness of stupid Angels got the best of my brain.Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
Can we not unban Drain? I never remember to move to the second main when I am playing it.
I just remember the old Vintage trolling to FoW a Spell, which opponents tried to FoW as well and I drained that FoW to Hardcast my Robot. So good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Ya, I won games like that back in the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
To bad Mana Burn is gone.
I will say it again: unban Recruiter. Give some power back to a non-U based deck. Give some love to the oldest tribal deck in MtG, some cheers for good old Goblins!
It's not about "power" like countless times discussed in this thread, but a lot of wanting Shahrazad back in the format to give more power to White creature decksQuote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
Shaharazad would bring so much joy in a competitive field.
A game of magic that can't end? Where do I have to sign?
Why don't we also bring Balance to the table? Sounds fun.
Have we really reached the point where every non blue card is ok to discuss? Apart for the lovely art, Recruiter is just broken.
I am of the view that if you want to say that Recruiter is broken you need to explain how it is more Broken then ANT. I mean we can list off a whole bunch of decks but really, we are talking about a single card that at best tutors you a card next turn and at worst is a 5 mana two card combo that is not even guaranteed to win you the game.
Yes, so much power I could hardly contain all my Squirrels. Oh and that's another card that needs to come off...
No, Recruiter is just a logistic nightmare thats why I drew lines to ShahrazadQuote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Fair, but still not broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I don't have much an opinion on Recruiter, as I've never actually piloted Goblins and I'm not qualified to assess its power level. I would like to see Goblins back, so I'd certainly welcome Recruiter if indeed it is safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
The advantage Recruiter.dec would have over ANT is resilience. Storm decks have a had time coming back if the fizzle or are disrupted. Not so much with Goblins.
Indeed. Regardless of whether it's too powerful or not it takes way too long to search your library and stack it to be legal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I'd imagine that there's a relatively small number of default piles that handle most situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
Some sort of non-Standard legal "fixed" reprint of Recruiter that let you search for 5 Goblins or something and stack them would be the nuts.
http://i60.tinypic.com/20uwjn6.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
and pretty much all of them are stackable in a couple minutes, once you know the piles.Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
Recruiter is no where near the logistics problem people make it out to be.
It is a unskilled player problem however, since they take to long to think about how to stack. which should not be a bannable issue.
There's actually an easy way to stop Shahrazad from stalling you out: Just concede the subgame and go on with the main game. No slowdown at all!Quote:
Originally Posted by Spam
The real issue with Shahrazad is that taking out half of someone's life for 2 mana seems a bit overpowered.
Oh, we are back to "SDT as a card is not the reason why Miracles matches go to time, but the inexperienced players"? Yeah, because just the fact that some people can play with card X or deck Y like with their own schlong, doesn't mean there is no logistic Problem overall. I have seen people puzzling 5+ min about Doomsday piles and I have seen people wasting 10+ minutes per game stacking their deck with Recruiters. The effective difference between the two cards is, that Doomsday does not stack 20+ cards several times in a single match like Recruiter is used to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmcc13
I recommend anyone interested in a recruiter unban put together food chain goblins in vintage online and then attempt to combo out without feeling suicidal.
What would happen if they unbanned Oath of Druids right now?
Nothing good. Think the Vintage deck only without the acceleration. It's not a safe card.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
Price spike would be the first thing that happened. After that it would be a rush to find which vintage shells can be recreated in legacy and aren't completely out of their element. A normal list dropping vintage cards for petals, extra cantrips, and some number of chrome mox is probably playable immediately.
The bomber man shell could go in rather easily. If you wanted combo that's likely your best route. The lack of Yawg Will hurts the storm set up and no Vault means your not going to run the tutor heavy version.
Apart from that, dropping Brand onto the table followed by Elish Norn would likely be good enough too.
format would be awful.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
If you thought creatures were bad in a world if terminus, they're even worse in a world of Oath
It's probably because you're playing on MTGO.Quote:
Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE
Real talk - when are they going to get rid of the ancient poll results in this thread? I'd be interested in seeing a new poll of which card should be banned in Legacy with "no bans" as an option.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
It's funny that none of those cards were banned in seven years.
It's left there for a reason. That reason being it looks ridiculous in our eyes knowing what time has done to the format. Thus a reminder that not every idea is a sound one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
I dunno Phyrexian Dreadnaught is still a 12/12 for 1.
I mean that's a lot of creature for one mana.