[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

This probably doesn't belong in here, since it's as different to Team America as Team America is to DreadStalker. Still, this is what I've been fooling around with:

U/B/r Tempo Aggro/Control (TAC?)

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [A] Underground Sea
1 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Badlands
1 [7E] Island (2)
1 [BD] Swamp (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [MM] Snuff Out

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 3 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 4 [FD] Engineered Explosives

I realize that Tarmogoyf is amazing, and I realize that I dropped him for Clique. Clique costs 1 more mana, which makes him slower, and his body is smaller than your average 4/5 Goyf. However, his evasion can make him deal damage faster than Goyf through ground blockers, and his ability can protect him against removal, which I feel is important in such a threat-light deck.

I also replaced Thoughtseize with Spell Pierce, since Thoughtseize doesn't generate tempo, and Spell Pierce protects my threats against removal better when the opponent has multiple removal spells in hand. With evasive beats, I'm less concerned with opposing creatures, so hitting noncreatures doesn't seem as relevant. Spell Pierce is a great answer against alot of spells, especially with the powerful LD suite.

Dropping green allows me to splash red for Firespout, which is such a badass card in here. It's basically a one-sided Wrath of God against aggro decks.

This is probably a massive butchering to Team America, but I wanted to try something outside the box. I figure running nothing but evasive beats allows the beats to more easily connect, Clique and Spell Pierce are great at protecting the low threat base against removal, and Firespout is a massive beating against aggro decks.

Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread with a decklist that probably doesn't belong here, and is probably much worse than standard Team America.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Clique costs 1 more mana, which makes him slower, and his body is smaller than your average 4/5 Goyf. However, his evasion can make him deal damage faster than Goyf through ground blockers, and his ability can protect him against removal, which I feel is important in such a threat-light deck.
...
With evasive beats, I'm less concerned with opposing creatures, so hitting noncreatures doesn't seem as relevant.
...
I figure running nothing but evasive beats allows the beats to more easily connect, Clique and Spell Pierce are great at protecting the low threat base against removal, and Firespout is a massive beating against aggro decks.

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While I don't necessarily disagree with this, I could see where you might very easily get ran over by a couple quick dudes. Team America often used Thoughtseize and Spell Snare to keep enemy dudes off the table which let their slower but larger beaters win the game relatively efficiently. I plan on testing this some, but I'm going in really wondering if something like Nacatl, go is going to break me given that my only real answers to it on the draw are Snuff Out and Force of Will. If an opponent follows up a turn 1 threat with another threat I could be in a really bad position making my V.Clique into a removal spell while depriving me of a win condition (something Goyf didn't suffer as much).

In any testing, did you ever encounter this?

Not to mention you can drop multiple Goyfs against aggro, something you cannot do with Clique.

Edit: I can see this being great in a more controllish meta. Having a Spell Snare proof threat base is pretty awesome.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by whienot

Not to mention you can drop multiple Goyfs against aggro, something you cannot do with Clique.

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...and many other reasons I have already explained make ubr version subottimal...

Ta is not Canadian,
Ta is not Faeries.

Ta doesn't play in istant speed and doesn't stay open for clique/pierce and other.

Play Ta.

Quote:

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...and many other reasons I have already explained make ubr version subottimal...

Ta is not Canadian,
Ta is not Faeries.

Ta doesn't play in istant speed and doesn't stay open for clique/pierce and other.

Play Ta.

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Does my version looks like it plays in sorcery speed? Nope. Is being sorcery speed even relevant for a tempo deck? Nope. It doesn't really matter either way, so whether or not it's good or not has nothing to do with sorcery vs instant speed. It's more a matter of does Clique do enough, I would think.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

U/B/r Tempo Aggro/Control (TAC?)

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [A] Underground Sea
1 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Badlands
1 [7E] Island (2)
1 [BD] Swamp (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [MOR] Vendilion Clique ---> 4 legendary vs 4 tarmo --> subottimal
4 [FUT] Tombstalker ---> sorcery

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder ---> sorcery
4 [SC] Stifle ---> istant
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce ---> istant
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [A] Sinkhole ---> sorcery
4 [MM] Snuff Out

---

The question isn't is a tempo deck must be sorcery or istant.

The problem is: if you play tempo as TA, play sorcery, if you want to play tempo as canandian or faeries, play istant.

Playing istant and sorcery spell all together is not the best way you have to build a tempo deck.

For example:

- 1st turn: stay open for stifle, always.
- 2nd turn. Stay open for pierce or play sinkhole? The choice could be not the best choice.

With TA I don't have this problem:
2nd turn play sinkhole, and I can play my istant spells couse of they have an alternative mana cost.

Ok?

You're not making any sense.

Quote:

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For example:

- 1st turn: stay open for stifle, always.
- 2nd turn. [Cast Thoughtseize] or play sinkhole? The choice could be not the best choice.

With [the deck I posted] I don't have this problem:
2nd turn play sinkhole, and I can play my istant spells couse of they have an alternative mana cost.

Ok?

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Fixed.

@ kikkofrio

I'm pretty sure all tempo decks play both instant and non-instant speed spells. I don't think you did a great job of isolating differences between Hanni's deck and the average build of TA.


@ Hanni

You've basically traded [Thoughtseize + Goyf] for [Spell Pierce + Cliques], right?

Ouch. I'd call the former set 'staples' in any Black-based Tempo/Suicide deck, and the latter set is teetering on the edge of viability, at best, those cards would have a place in a highly metagamed version of this deck.

If you don't expect to face any deck with 12+ creatures in it, then I would be more willing to agree to the direction your deck is going. Otherwise, I think the versatility of Thoughtseize and the raw efficiency of Goyf as both a blocker and attacker are too necessary. If I was facing combo all day long, I could better understand why you'd use that setup. However, both Thoughtseize and the raw clock of Goyf would be pretty close in utility to the cards you've suggested in such matchups.

Splashing red for sweepers doesn't seem like an effective use of the color for this deck. Lightning bolt and Fire/Ice are prevalent enough that you should explain why you aren't trying to include those first. REB might not be terrible either. More importantly, by the time sweeping is profitable, you are already fighting an uphill battle that I don't see you winning. I think Goyf is a much, much better "catch-all". Removing Goyf+thoughtseize and playing non-creature disruption + Red sweepers is not going to cut it against opposing aggro strategies.

I think Spell Pierce is really best as a defensive counterspell, but I wouldn't class it as an offensive one that helps you push your spells through. I'd rather have the offensive potency of Thoughtseize in the early game than the slightly better topdecks you would see from a Spell pierce. I'd actually prefer Duress to Spell Pierce if you aren't going to play against any aggro decks.

I think Clique's flying isn't that impressive in this deck. If you needed to fly over creatures, then you were probably already losing that one. You want to win before they can get+keep threats on the table. TS can block and has the 4 turn clock (not the 7 turn clock of Clique), and given the P/T of TS, I can better understand why we would value the flying on that card, but I can't say the same for Clique in this deck. If Clique + Spell Pierce signify that you won't be facing a lot of creatures in your meta, then the flying really won't be relevant, just the efficiency of the card effects. Even with Clique's hand removal, I think it isn't as powerful as unblocked efficiency of Tarmogoyf which can be played a turn earlier and doesn't require 3 mana.

I think the close battles against creature-based decks that aren't as easily disrupted by TA's arsenal will be weakened by too large a margin to accept those substitutions. Goyf at least has a chance to overpower opposing swarm-strategies by forcing them to chump you into card advantage, while Clique just doesn't. For most metagames, you will still need blockers. I think you aren't gaining much against non-creature based decks, and I think you are losing a lot against decks that do play creatures.




peace,
4eak

Like I said, it's just what I'm fooling around with. I already said that it's probably a massive butchering. Was just curious if anyone else had tried anything similar.

White splash is better than red, if you're dropping green. You get to play Vindicate and StP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Like I said, it's just what I'm fooling around with. I already said that it's probably a massive butchering. Was just curious if anyone else had tried anything similar.

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Yes, I tried U/b/w "Team America," using Wake Thrasher and Vindicate instead of Tarmogoyf and Sinkhole. The problem tho' is aggro WTF PWNs you out of existence, you really need Tarmo's fat ass to protect yourself from the zerg.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Yes, I tried U/b/w "Team America," using Wake Thrasher and Vindicate instead of Tarmogoyf and Sinkhole. The problem tho' is aggro WTF PWNs you out of existence, you really need Tarmo's fat ass to protect yourself from the zerg.

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Well to be fair, Thrasher is pretty bad, especially on defense. Clique is the best filler for Goyf. If you play 3 Vindicate/4 StP, aggro is still tough but not impossible to beat. Zoo's creatures become 1/1s without lands, and you have 15+ LD cards. If you keep them off white for Path, Tombstalker just gets there.

Here's the list lorddotm and I were testing:


4 Tombstalker
3 Clique

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
4 StP
3 Vindicate
4 Sinkhole
4 Stifle

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Scrub

I've tried more threat configurations than I care to mention, whether it's Wake Thrasher, Vendillion Clique or Bitter Blossom, the absence of Tarmogoyf is really significant vs aggro. Regardless, 4xVendillion Clique is just a really, really bad choice, you're better off with 4xSerendib Efreet and ?xVendillion Clique, where the 4 Toughness is invaluable vs Zoo and Goblins. Serendib Efreet is a seriously unperplayed beater in aggro-control, especially in the current meta.

The testing for the tournaments next month started bad... I wen't 2-2 today in the local shop...

It was very small with 10 people and I won against Red Death, lost against Merfolk and Ichorid. Merfolk was a shitty matchup and I won only a game after the tournament in testing, where I landed double Plague. Ichorid was very weird, My opponent mulled to 2! and I went topdecking all my Sinkholes, wastelands and Snuff Outs. If I found a creature I would have won easily. G2 he resolved a Imp, and my crypts couldn't stall him enough. Those two decks where the only bad macthups showed up.

Afterwards I tested against Zoo and Ultimate Walker and ANT and found those matchups quite winnable.

My list was the same is in the OP with the following changes

MD
-1 Snuff Out
+Vendilion Clique

SB
-1 Krosan Grip
-3 Diabolic Edict
+4 Engineered Plague

-Benie

A few observations from fooling around with the list I posted:

Legendary status with Vendilion Clique isn't so hot. Great creature, but you really don't want to see multiples unless they get hit by removal.

I agree that a t1 Nacatl in g1 makes racing [with a Clique] pretty difficult.

I've been liking Spell Pierce alot. It does quite a bit for the deck, answering alot of stuff Spell Snare doesn't, and alot of those spells can be serious problems. With Stifle/Waste AND Sinkhole, it's been very strong, especially in combination with Daze.

The red splash for Firespout has been crazy good.

I'm wondering if a 4c splash is possible? I'm sure that it makes matchups against opposing decks with mana denial complete hell, but at the same time, Firespout is crazy good. I guess the next thing crazy thing for me to test is Team America with Spell Pierce in place of Thoughtseize and a red splash for Firespout.

U/B/g/r Team America

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [A] Underground Sea
1 [A] Tropical Island
1 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Bayou
1 [R] Badlands
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [A] Sinkhole

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [ARE] Duress
SB: 4 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Something like that, I suppose. I hate 4c decks because of 4c manabases. 4c with only 16 actual colored sources is even worse, so I'll likely scrap the idea after I fool around with it. Oh well.

Nice idea. But: A single red mana source would in my opinion be enough. Because you only want it for playing Firespout which would be gg against aggro as soon as it resolves.

The inclusion of Spell Pierce is pretty interesting, too. What is your opinion about cutting the Clique and playing 4 SPierce instead?

How did you test the deck?

Btw.: You could stay three colored if you use Infest instead of Firespout. Infest is not as strong but it provides CA too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

U/B/g/r Team America

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [A] Underground Sea
1 [A] Tropical Island
1 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Bayou
1 [R] Badlands
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Snuff Out
3 Fire/Ice / Lightning Bolt

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Fixed!

Any particular reason you don't just SB the R lands?

Umn I like the red option,I thnk its a good way to go.
Now its time to test

The strain on the manabase for Firespout just hasn't been worth it. A single Wasteland in the early game completely shuts the deck off of either BB for Tombstalker/Sinkhole, or blue in general (Underground Sea + Bayou is the typical play).

Firespout is a badass card, especially with 5 flyers, and especially with the ability to cast it with both green and red mana... but ultimately, consistency issues make the deck too unreliable for me. 3c is shaky as it is.

I like the Infest idea. It doesn't deal with Kird Apes, Wild Nacatl's, or 3/3's (pumped by Lords), but it answers most swarm aggro. Snuff Out hits the bigger guys/Lords, which can strengthen Infest. Not the best answer ever, but going 4c is really pushing it, and I don't see any better alternatives. Pernicious Deed is really slow for this deck, and against aggro, something faster is important.

The new rendition:

U/B/g Team America

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [A] Underground Sea
2 [A] Tropical Island
1 [B] Bayou
1 [7E] Island (2)
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [A] Sinkhole

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [ARE] Duress
SB: 4 [ON] Infest
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip