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@ sdmatt: thanks for the comment on the list, and yeah it really sucks losing to zo just because of the ravnica duals
but there are some things i do not like about my list, i am not sure if i should keep the wastelands or cut them in favor of more basics
and next thing is, i still haven't got the maelstrom pulses, i am still playing deed in this slot, what would you think of it, or should there be the pulses in a more aggro oriented deck?
Considering you're playing a bunch of <3 drop creatures with a ton of equipment, I don't think deed is the way to go without a bunch of recursion. Pulse is an amazing card. It kills Goblin tokens, Dredge Zombies, Thopter Tokens, and blows other crap up. I'd say go for Pulses. Plus, they're going to be really cheap once they rotate out of standard in a few months. :D
Also, I noticed you have a bunch of recursion, so Deed is playable here. But, you're usually blowing Deed at 2, to kill Goyf and such, but it'll also destroy your equipment as said before. Again, I'd say go with Pulse.
Regarding Wasteland, I think a one-of can be amazing. Against that Glacial Chasm, Kor Haven, Maze of Ith, etc. it can be devastating. 2 is still fine, but I'd say maybe add another basic, just to be sure.
-Matt
So, another tournament report from me! We had a small 6 man tournament with an 8-5-4-1-1-1 payout. I didn't do amazingly well, but my opponents either drew the nuts or I screwed up.
The Deck:
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of K.
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Phyrexian Arena
Board:
3 Plague
3 Choke
4 Leyline
2 Extirpate
3 Diabolic Edict
Round 1: Dredge
Game 1: Almost had the win here. It was a drawn out game where I managed to hit a Bog and slow him down. Hit the Knight one turn too slow, and I had to block a 16/16 troll to save me from dying. So close.
Game 2: I steamroll the crap out of him keeping a hand with Leyline, Goyf, Land, Land, Hierarch, Vindicate, Swords. I draw into Deed. Enough said.
Game 3: I should've kept my opening hand, but it had 2 Lands, no Leyline, and solid otherwise. I mull into a hand of 5 lands and a Goyf. I didn't want to go to 5, and time was running out. He drew the stone cold nuts and blew me out turn 2 or 3.
In: 4 Leyline, 2 Extirpate, 3 Plague.
Out: 4 Hymn, 2 T/s, 2 Inquisition, 1 E. Wit
0-1
Round 2: Lands
Game 1: He goes first and Manabonds into Port, Wasteland, double Factory, Ghost Quarter, and a mana producer. I die.
Game 2: I Leyline him, then Deed away his Manabond. I destroy Maze and eventually get there after a half hour.
Game 3: It goes back and forth, with him eventually setting Chalice at 3 with Bridge on the Board. I can't get there, so we draw.
0-1-1
Round 3: ANT
Game 1: He goes first, Land, Petal, pass. I Thoughtseize, he allows, and I take infernal Tutor. He draws into the win a turn or two later.
Game 2: I thoughtseize, he brainstorms and hides Ritual. He goes off second turn.
0-2-1
All in all, a decently horrible night. I'm freaking glad Mystical is getting banned. I hope to see less ANT, but it'll give rise to more Iggy/Fetchland Tendrils, I think. Oh well. I got a pack of RoE for my efforts, and sold my Momentous Fall I opened. Ouch.
All in all, I'm still happy with the deck, it's just the matchups were pretty crap for me. Dredge was so close to being a win, and Lands I was close if time was on my side. ANT I basically had no chance.
-Matt
@sdematt; against Dredge: game 2 on the play, I would keep the targeted discard in. If you can start by taking away their discard outlet, you're usually in good shape.
I see your point, but pretty much after that first turn, the targeted discard is utter crap (unless you hit Careful study/Breakthrough). I took it out because it's really good at first, and becomes less so as the game goes on, and I wasn't sure what else to cut. I'm sure I could cut E. Wit, and perhaps the Arenas, but I like having the drawing power vs. Dredge. But, I'll have to practice! :D
-Matt
Nice report sdematt.
The 3x Noble Hierarch seems strange. This deck has no cantripping/draw... if you need the early mana accel why not run 4? To me it seems like you either run 4x or 0x.
You coming out to the Stronghold tomorrow, James? Around 12-1pm?
I'm already at 60, and I dont "need" 4, persay. I can survive without it, but I also don't know what to cut.
-Matt
I just redesigned my Rock list and wanted some input:
Lands (22):
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
1x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
1x Volrath's Stronghold
Creatures (19):
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Kitchen Finks
2x Tombstalker
Spells (19):
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse (only have 2 Vindicates, subbed in a Pulse for one, but I feel like Pulse has some good uses)
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Umezawa's Jitte
SB: (very half-assed, wanted to have a toolbox but don't really know how to pull it off well)
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Pernicious Deed
2x Engineered Plague
1x Choke
1x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Krosan Grip
2x Diabolic Edict
First of all, we have another one joining the dark side of The Rock! Excellent!
Secondly, so far, nice list!
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
1x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
1x Volrath's Stronghold
Creatures (19):
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Kitchen Finks
2x Tombstalker
Spells (19):
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse (only have 2 Vindicates, subbed in a Pulse for one, but I feel like Pulse has some good uses)
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Umezawa's Jitte
You seem to be going to the Aggro plan, so for that, your creature base seems solid. I think Qasali Pridemage is good, but I'd rather have more fatties. I'd consider Doran, or possibly running 3 Paths as well. You up your chances vs. Tribal and Zoo, and Qasali or similar effects can be run in the Side.
Pulse vs. Vindicate. Both are good in their own way, and I always suggest running both, with a favour towards the Vindicate. Why? It blows up lands, which can be terribly problematic. Maze of Ith, Volrath's Stronghold, your opponents Basics, etc. can be strategically important targets which Pulse can't hit. Can pulse take out 5 Goyfs? You bet it can. Goblin Tokens? Yes. Plus, it doesn't get hosed by Iona on white.
I like the fact you're running Top and Confidant. It's like cheating.
Jitte seems good. You're blowing crap up and getting there. Therefore, Jitte seems good. Plus, it allows you to blow up other problematic Jittes.
Now, the real question is whether you want to run the Finks. They'll improve your Zoo match, but you can also play other fatties or more removal. It's up to you and your Meta.
4-of Wasteland: I'd cut this back to 3, and add a Karakas. You're decently double black/coloured mana intensive (Hymn, Tombstalker), and I think Wasteland could screw you over a bit. Plus, you can fetch Karakas to kill Iona. Alternately, I'd say run a 1-of Bojuka Bog. Solves your black mana hunger, and decimates Reanimator/Ichorid/Lands, which are prevalent.
Sideboard: Don't run a bunch of nasty one-of's unless you're playing 4 Enlightened Tutor. A couple of things. Combo is going to be a horrid matchup, even with your amount of discard. They can just hide key spells with Brainstorm. You need to pack some solid combo hate in the form of Gaddock Teeg/Thorn of Amethyst. I suggest multiples of each.
If your Meta is terribly counter-top heavy, I suggest Deed/Krosan Grip.
If you're running into a ton of Dredge, Leyline of the Void could help you out, if you're also running Mainboard Bog.
Explosives seems bad, as you have no way to recur it.
Plague is good, but you'll have to test and see whether you need it or not.
Choke is always good, with all the Blue running around. You kill Merfolk, Thopter, and a bunch of decks that play blue.
If you're really having Goblin trouble, you may want to give Tivadar's Crusade a try :P
All in all, you're on the right track. I really like the list. Keep it up!
-Matt
@Dyzzy - I'm not too sure about KotR and Tombstalker in the same deck; haven't you had occasions when you had to shrink a Knight in order to cast a Tombstalker. If the opponent then has the answer for your Tombstalker, you put yourself in a pretty poor position.
Also if you're running Knight, I think you should run 8 fetches at least (maybe -1 Swamp, -1 Waste for 2 more fetches).
I would also run at least 1 more Top, it's probably the best card in the deck.
As far the SB, sdematt is right. If you want to run a pure tutorboard, you should either run 1 more tutor or increase the number of cards you want to board in for certain matchups. Against combo for instance, 1 Thorn isn't going to get you anywhere.
If the meta will shift as people predict (i.e. more aggro), I think Finks is a great option. I'm currently testing them as a 4-off in my build.
finks are awesome, i am playing them as 4 off, and i will never cut them again, i just love them, specially against aggro decks, they slow down every opposing aggrodeck for 2 turns plus you get 4 life out of em most of the time (expect against zoo, due to paths)
ZZZ - i think KotR and Tombstalker do fit in the same deck, actually i am playing both to, but tombstalker just as a 1 off (and addictionally to the 8 fetchs i am playing 3 horizon canopy and 1 wasteland so my knight won't become that small)
Actually I've been playing Rock for a while, it just always took a backseat to Merfolk. I think, in concept, Rock is my favorite deck archetype. I just randomly decided to make some changes last night, which is why I posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Well, isn't that true with Goyf and Stalker as well? Anyway, I have not actually seen both cards in the same game yet (literally only put them in together last night and only goldfished a few test games).Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZZ
I could see cutting a Waste for another fetch, but I don't know about cutting a swamp (I wanted to have 2 basic swamps for Hymn and Stalker, but maybe I only need the one basic?)
SB: yeah, I know it's a mess. Maybe I should just abandon the tutorboard and make it a real board instead.
No, it's not entirely true, Tombstalker and Knight both rely on your own graveyard while Goyf also takes your opponent's graveyard into account.Quote:
Originally Posted by dyzzy
I also like having a basic for each required colour within the casting costs but fetch is the easiest way to grow your Knight; maybe you can shave off one of the duals, a Scrub perhaps although I'd rather go with 1 of the Swamps.
How do you guys feel about running Stoneforge Mystic when already equipment? I currently run a 2/2 Stoneforge & Jitte split and have been pretty happy overall, although the few times I have an active Jitte and draw a Stoneforge Mystic, it's a dead draw, which is quite painful in deck that doesn't have the luxury of blue cantrips/shuffles/brainstorms/etc.
Arsenal,
I play an aggro/fishy list with Aether Vials and lots of two-drops and I love running a Stoneforge/gear package. However, running just two Mystics and two Jittes seems a bit awkward because it sets you up for redundant/useless draws.
For awhile I was playing two Mystics, 1 Jitte, 1 Basilisk Collar and 1 Sword of Fire and Ice. SoFI cost too much and has to connect to trigger so I was never impressed with it, and drawing a second Mystic with no gear left worth searching for wasn't too fun. So now I've cut down to one Mystic, one Basilisk Collar and one Jitte, with an extra Jitte in the board for like Zoo and tribal.
And I've said this before about Basilisk Collar, but to reiterate, it is fantastic. Deathtouch lets you trade random shitbags for opposing fatties and the lifelink allows you to race games where you should have no business racing.
-
Re: board options for Zoo and tribal:
I've gone back and forth on Kitchen Finks and Path to Exile. I really like the option of killing Merfolk's lords outright and cheaply with Path, especially perhaps during combat to screw their math. Meanwhile trading Finks for Nacatl or Kird Ape or whatever, gaining 4 life along the way, and still having a 2/1 is really appealing for Zoo. So. Thoughts? Pros/cons? Is this a meta call?
I'm leaning toward Path because it's far stronger against New Horizons. Which is a deck I've been having a hard time with. If they Stifle and Waste a couple of my lands early game I'm often too color-screwed and trapped in top-deck mode to survive. If I resolve Aether Vial I'm usually much happier, and obviously if Dark Confidant survives a few turns I can hit my drops and stay in the game. But overall this is an un-fun match-up and I'm not sure how to improve it.
My mainboard only plays black for Confidant, Thougthseize and Maelstrom Pulse, so I'm considering boarding out the Seizes to simplify my colors while bringing in Paths and possibly Aven Mindcensor (brick-up their fetches and Knights). Other ideas or experiences?
Also worth mentioning: I think this deck has game against lots of random aggro while still holding against whatever reincarnations of Reanimator pop up. But I've never tested the match-up against storm combo or Enchantress and did not enjoy the two games I've played against Lands so far either. What's ya'll's experience been? How savagely must we hate, and what opportunities do you see for interconnected/overlapping hate to maximize each slot's utility?
I haven't had a ton of issues with Enchantress, except when they get the God hand and give everything Shroud on turn 2. Mind you, Pernicious Deed is really good here. Usually, if you can land Deed, you're Golden. If not, blow up relevant crap (The Angel Generator and the Shroud thing). If you can keep them off their key cards, you're usually good. Also, hand disruption against them is really brutal.
I don't see much to bring in against Enchantress, except NOT siding in creature hate. Siding in Grips for Swords should be fine.
For Lands, the matchup is tricky. If they Manabond first turn into double Port, Wasteland, Factory, etc., you're boned. If they don't have a God Draw, you can usually get there by blowing up their Manabonds, Explorations, etc. Once Loam gets going, it can be hard to beat, so make sure you get rid of their Intuitions and exile their Life from the Loam (with Bog). You can eventually get there with creature beatdown, but you'll have to get through Ports, Tabers, and Mazes.
Side in Leylines, and Extirpates. Extirpate on Loam is cruel, and Leyline takes away recurring EE, Intuition, and Crucible (if they side it in). You should be able to get there post-board. Just make sure you attack often, and Swords their Factories.
Both can be tough matchups, but you just have to play smart, save destruction for key pieces, and turn your creatures sideways. I've found a ton of Lands players forget to Maze your attackers :P
-Matt
I've been testing the following list, partially inspired by danpo's list:
Lands (21):
1 Bayou
3 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Creatures (27):
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Disruption (8):
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
Miscellaneous (4):
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard (15):
4 Path to Exile
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Aura of Silence
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Gaddock Teeg
The most unconventional card in this list is probably the Tidehollow Sculler. It has been so-so in testing so far; I just wanted a low-costing creature that disrupted combo, since I expect it to remain strong despite Mystical Tutor's banning, and I thought it was better against more decks than Teeg. I've been pretty happy with it so far, it's been giving me positive results against Zoo, Merfolk, and New Horizons (more so after board due to the 4 Paths). It has a variety of answers to whatever decks it might face, but still plays aggressively. Thoughts?
Plains 2
swamp 2
forest 2
scrubland 2
savanna 2
bayou 3
windswept heath 4
verdant catacomb 3
marsh flats 1
birds of paradise 4
gaddock teeg 2
knight of the rel 4
kitchen finks 4
goyf 4
stoneforge mystic 3
Dark confidant 3
sword of fire and ice 1
sword of light and shadow 1
jitte 2
swords to plowshares 4
thoughtsieze 4
vindicate 3
side
deed 2
k grip 2
chalice of the void 3
extirpate 3
choke 3
tormod's crypt 1
relic of progen 1
This is what i plan on rockin at my next local tournament. I decided to go with the stoneforge plan because it really just felt to good not to. I don't know if any of you have for whatever reason opted out of trying it but at least give it a shot. Shes really good. Its pretty card advantagey and the equipment can turn anything into a viable threat. Im main boarding the teegs partly because I dont think the deck is going to want deeds main (what i had in that spot before) its great but i feel like its better in the side. And teeg is good in some random match ups and always good against force of will at least.
I have played rock before but not this particular build any ideas or advice regarding it would be appreciated.
Brainw712, i like your list but it feels weird to me only running 2 dark confidants. Usually especially in this deck I really want to see them, the only reason I'm not playing 4 is because i haven't gotten it yet. It feels like the deck really needs the card advantage. Im not too sure about the mothers either, I haven't tested it though either, how does it play? is it really worth it over the other options? I do think however that elspeth makes perfect sense. I think shes a fine edition to the deck, she gives you a good plan in a stalemate and a good way to seal the deal if your in the lead. I haven't seen a ton of planeswalkers in The Rock, at least around here, but i think its a step in the right direction.
I would advice playing more equips along with jitte too, you may find yourself drawing dead cards with additional jittes or stoneforges, that's what was happening to me anyway. Plus sword of fire and ice/light and shadow are great. I really couldn't see dumping them after trying them out.
I've heard some rumours about new equipment coming out in Scars. Could be interesting to see if the Stoneforge package could get an upgrade.
-MAtt
Considering SFM packages: why doesn't anyone run Basilisk Collar? Is it really that bad? I can see it being pretty useful, from chumpblocking with deathtouch, to attacking Exalted Angel-style with Goyfen and Knights.
It may not be as strong as Swords and Jitte on offense, but on defense, you can trade with their best creatures. SB slot maybe? Combo it with Plague Spitter for the kicks;)