[Deck] Dredge

Leyline of Sanctity stops the tap ability of Relic. You might be thinking "so what" and you might be right; I haven't tested enough yet. However, I know I have kept DDD hands on the draw against Blue decks that didn't work out because they played turn 1 Relic. I keep 4x Cabal Therapy in the deck as well FWIW.

The castability / dead draw aspect of Leylines don't bother me. Maybe other Dredge players aren't doing this, but I play Leyline of the Void in my sideboard already because it's such a strong tool against Lands.dec, Dredge mirrors, and Reanimator. This is already a deck that doesn't mind mulling a lot for the right hand if the payoff is worth it. The same can be said for Leyline of Anticipation - if the flash effect is worth it then I'll be happy to play it in my sideboard. How has LoA played in your testing?

The problem with the leyline cycle has been, traditionally, not having them in your opener so you mull into them if you really need them and when you hit them in your hand of 5 cards or something what if the rest of the hand is absolutely terrible? Like no dredgers or odd cards to have in your hand like ichorid, dread return, narcomoeba, etc. or no discard outlets because if you don't get leyline in your opening 7 DDDing might be out the window because leylines reduce your hand size by 1, making it effectively 6 cards or less in your hand at the start of the game if you open with turn zero leyline of any type so DDDing might take a few turns to get active and when it does get active the opponent could be beating you down with a goyf or something with a fast clock. But you play your deck how you want to play it, I can't decide it for you.

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

Good call on angel of dispair. It's a great black (ichorid fodder) creature. And i included it in my list.
At first glance, i would not run unmask main deck now. I prefer no addition disrruption other than cabal therapy. I know, unmask it's pro combo yes, but i want as much cards as possible in my hand!! I leave them for side (4x).
Another thing is that you dont run witness / sphinx what slows down terrible to capability of combing of!
Take a look to my list for discussion:

/ Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
3 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [OD] Tireless Tribe
1 [GP] Angel of Despair

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
1 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [10E] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 4 [MM] Unmask

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Ok I'm new to Ichorid and the question I'm asking may be stupid, but I'll ask anyways. Looking at your md you don't play Careful Study. I run two of them and really like the card. You also only run one deep Analysis were I run two of them. I use to run just one but never really hit it that much so I made it a two of. To me if you hit deep anaylsis within the first few turns, It should be good game. Plus I really like Sphinx of the Truths md. How do you feel about him?

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Originally Posted by The Pharmacist

Ok I'm new to Ichorid and the question I'm asking may be stupid, but I'll ask anyways. Looking at your md you don't play Careful Study. I run two of them and really like the card. You also only run one deep Analysis were I run two of them. I use to run just one but never really hit it that much so I made it a two of. To me if you hit deep anaylsis within the first few turns, It should be good game. Plus I really like Sphinx of the Truths md. How do you feel about him?

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No stupids questions.
You can play 2 off of the mentioned card. I give up using them to make the deck a bit more protective if that are the words. I really like 1 DA and a permanent discard enable (tireless tribe) but you can play 2 CS and 2 DA if you wish.
In my testing Eternal witness > Sphinx.

Good luck!

This is my first post in this forum. I'm a Legacy player from Germany and often write in the main MTG forum there.
But the people there stopped discussing the LED Ichorid and just concentrate on the LEDless version, which I personaly don't like.
I'm playing now this list:

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
1 Tireless Tribe
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful Study
1 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

2 Tireless Tribe
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Unmask

You are right - I think it is an error to play without our LEDs. This card make the difference, it makes us soooo fast. Ok other ichorids are more consistent, but what helps that if you are simply not fast enough....

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

This is my first post in this forum. I'm a Legacy player from Germany and often write in the main MTG forum there.
But the people there stopped discussing the LED Ichorid and just concentrate on the LEDless version, which I personaly don't like.
I'm playing now this list:

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
1 Tireless Tribe
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful Study
1 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

2 Tireless Tribe
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Unmask

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Nice list, indeed. What it's not clear to me is why replacing chain of vapor for nature's claim?

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

Nice list, indeed. What it's not clear to me is why replacing chain of vapor for nature's claim?

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A good question. I know that 4 Chain of Vapor is maybe the most common card in the SB and I ran it.
But after testing the Caim I realize that it is also very powerful. The only problem is that you need green mana, but in certain situation it can be the matchwinner.
I've played a big tournament three weeks ago. Against SneakAttack.dec I played three Nature's Claim destroying two Ley Lines and one Sneak Attack. I finally scored a 5-3, which was ok to me.

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Originally Posted by Seraph2k

You are right - I think it is an error to play without our LEDs. This card make the difference, it makes us soooo fast. Ok other ichorids are more consistent, but what helps that if you are simply not fast enough....

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Exactly. Especially Merfolk is a poblem, if you are too slow. The 16 lords version is sometimes too fast and with their FoW and Daze a hard MU.

Hey guys. I am new to Ichorid and I have huge problems with creating SB. In my meta I have merfolks, painters, eva green, lands, reanimator, enchantress, goblins, zoo, ant and dredge.
I was thinking to make sth like that:
1x Ancestor's Chosen
1x Realm Razer/Terastodon/Woodfall Primus
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Firestorm
3x Pithing Needle
3x Chain of Vapor/Ancient Grudge/Nature's Claim
but I suppose I made wrong cards ;s
Could any1 help me? :(

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

Nice list, indeed. What it's not clear to me is why replacing chain of vapor for nature's claim?

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Because it makes sense I guess. If the opponent drops a Leyline, I often end up draw-going for Chain of Vapor which gives the opponent time to draw himself out of his crappy hand or to develop a boardposition. I can then bounce Leyline, but then I am forced to do some serious brokeness before it gets replayed again.

On the other side, Chain of Vapor can be casted with Cephalid Coliseum which might be the elemental difference between Claim and Chain.

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Originally Posted by Saff

1x Ancestor's Chosen
1x Realm Razer/Terastodon/Woodfall Primus
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Firestorm
3x Pithing Needle
3x Chain of Vapor/Ancient Grudge/Nature's Claim
but I suppose I made wrong cards ;s
Could any1 help me? :(

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In every meta I would play 3 or 4 Ancient Grudge.
If you are going for two DR-target-slots take the Chosen and Woodfall Primus.
I would also argue about the Needle. I played it a few times and I don't like it much.
If you don't know, if your opponent has Relic or Crypt, it is just gambling.
Sure, you can target other permanents like Wasteland or Top, but Ancient Grudge
is way better.

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

Nice list, indeed. What it's not clear to me is why replacing chain of vapor for nature's claim?

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In my experience with the deck there are only 2 permanents that I have encountered where I wished I had Chain of Vapor instead of Nature's Claim. Chain of Vapor deals with Yixlid Jailer (rarely played) and Blazing Archon (Reanimator target). For most of the other problem cards (especially Leyline of the Void) I would rather have Nature's Claim. Leyline is a lot more popular at least in my part of the US. For what it's worth I have removed CoV from my sideboard and rarely miss having it.

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

This is my first post in this forum. I'm a Legacy player from Germany and often write in the main MTG forum there.
But the people there stopped discussing the LED Ichorid and just concentrate on the LEDless version, which I personaly don't like.
I'm playing now this list:

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
1 Tireless Tribe
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful Study
1 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

2 Tireless Tribe
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Unmask

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What is your SB plan against the various matchups? I find the hardest part about dredge to be the sideboarding.

What metagame changes or cards has cause Ichorid deck to no longer be a Deck to Beat or top tier deck?

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Originally Posted by Kiljae8n

What metagame changes or cards has cause Ichorid deck to no longer be a Deck to Beat or top tier deck?

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probably the heavy shift to combo, and the fact that people are packing fair amounts of grave hate even in decks that have a tight G1 against this deck, because of stuff like lands and, formerly, Reanimator. Also, for semantics' sake, it was a DTW.
Has anyone tried Stormtide Leviathan as a DR target?

Most of the recent successful Ichorid builds are LEDless. I can only speculate but I think it may be due to the availability of LED or just preference of consistency over explosiveness. I myself have been using the LEDless build for three months until I got a hold of a playset of LED last week. But contrary to popular belief, based on what I've experienced when playtesting at least, the LED build is as consistent as the LEDless build.

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Originally Posted by sa17dk

What is your SB plan against the various matchups? I find the hardest part about dredge to be the sideboarding.

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Can be pretty simple. I often board +4 Ancient Grudge and +2 Tribe in and throw the LEDs, Deep Analysis and the FKZ out, when I expect some crypts/relics. The reason for boarding is just the hate, when I can hit a Top or somewhat with my antihate, it is ok too.
I just look at their SBs. Against Combo.decs I have normaly in addition to Cabal Therapy the three Unmasks.

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Originally Posted by Pastorofmuppets

Has anyone tried Stormtide Leviathan as a DR target?

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No, but it looks funny. I think Blazing Archon is better.

I played the LEDless version before playing the LED version and I agree that there isnt that much of a difference in consistency especially if you run 3 Tireless Tribes in the board for games 2 and 3.

The budget argument is a bit misleading. LEDs are only about $40 which is still cheaper than Tarmogoyfs and there is no lack of Tarmogoyf based decks. I'd say its mostly the fact that there exists a version that doesnt have LEDs that lets people rationalize not buying LEDs. I can guarantee you that if there were "Goyf-less builds" of Goyf decks people would also flock to those as well.

Consistency issues aside, I prefer the LED version because of the speed it offers us. I played the LEDless version at a tournament recently and I definitely felt some pressure trying to race other fast decks in the format. I'm not sure which version I'll settle on yet as I've been switching back and forth, but the one thing I always wanted in the LEDless build was the Unmasks. Obviously taking a card from their hand is crucial, but what I wanted most during games 2 and 3 was the information that Unmask would offer. Youre only going to have one Cabal Therapy in your hand and I'd rather get the information of what theyre holding AND take a card I want rather than trying to psychic snipe with Cabal Therapy. Playing without Unmasks felt like I was playing Belcher that dies to both counterspells and graveyard hate.

The next time I switch back to the LEDless version I'm definitely going to cut the Careful Studies and replace them with Unmasks. Careful Study is just terrible.

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Originally Posted by sa17dk

The next time I switch back to the LEDless version I'm definitely going to cut the Careful Studies and replace them with Unmasks. Careful Study is just terrible.

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Na, they aren't terrible it's just that, compared with unmask, they are subpar...

I think Stormtide Leviathan would be awful; Merfolk could still attack you and your Zombies won't be able to attack. Besides the dread return targets don't matter too much except FKZ because it helps us race faster combo decks. Even though we sideboard FKZ out in a lot of matches he is invaluable in game 1 and games 2/3 against combo opponents. Personally I play Flame-kin Zealot + Sphinx of Lost Truths + Woodfall Primus, but even if you cut all 3 of them the deck would still largely play out the same.