What's the point of changing it's colour though, or just to pump?
-Matt
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What's the point of changing it's colour though, or just to pump?
-Matt
I have not, I just recently put in the deck as 3x of. Am waiting to get a chance to use it and provide experienced advice on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by deezy
Survives Perish and makes it harder for people to use Mother of Runes. That's about I all can think about as a bonus that's relative. Could be a possible post-board if not wanting to M/D it, I'd rather see it M/D then post though, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I'm very keen to run a 1-of Dauntless Escort with GSZ to screw over Perish, but I can see where that Mongrel ability could be great. Very interesting.
-Matt
What about something along the lines of:
8 Fetches
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1/2 Savannah
1/0 Karakas
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
3 Scrubland
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
1 Rafiq of the Many
3 Birds of Paradise/Noble (Probably birds, though)
1 Dauntless Escort
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Top
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition/Cabal Therapy/EE
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Vindicate
Board:
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
2 Thrunn, the Last Troll
2 duress/Cabal/IoK
3 Engineered Plague
1 Trygon Predator
3 Grave/Storm Hate
Thoughts? Trygon is just there against stuff like Stax, Blood Moon based decks, etc. Thrun comes in against CounterTop, Progenitus against other NO Bant and Tribal as does Plague, etc.
-Matt
I for one believe that without gsz, The Rock or any midrange green deck in general cannot compete. Especially in the mid range mirror with a deck packing gsz. This might sound overly dramatic but it is a fact. Take your non - gsz builds and go 20 games against a competitive list with gsz. The consistency it provides is unparalleled. I don't play it because of hatfield. I played it even before he played it in SCG. See the zenith order thread in ND? I started it, that's how much I believe in it. The card is on the same power level as brainstorm. That is the reason I play it.
@ sdematt. Without any need for double black in that list, I suggest nobles. The exalted is pretty important. Dauntless escort should be kotr and the 2nd pridemage could well be the 4th bob since you also play vindicates. The list looks pretty solid! Maybe a trop somewhere would be ok too.
@sdematt
Your list looks like more traditional rock (which i like :wink:).
But i would go with:
-1 scrubland
+1 bayou (because you constantly need green mana on first turn for bop/noble or gsz)
-1 qasali (one should be fine, it can be fetched, othervise you have vindicate)
+1 witness/finks (it would be nice to fit them since you can grab it)
Play cabal therapy in place of duress/iok. Combined with thoughtseize it can be so powerful, and you can sac your birds/arbor/finks(if you play them) in mid/late game to trade them for the cards in opponents hand.
That's my opinion.
Would not have to run GSZ w/ Mongrel, but the same slot would be interchangeable, would depend on how the pilot plays. Both have same intentions, I feel that Mongrel would be the more aggressive approach where Escort is the safety measure.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Looks solid, personally:Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
3 Noble Heirarch
2 Cabal Therapy
-1 Diabolic Edict
+1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Qasali Pridemage
+1 Dark Confidant
-1 Scrubland
+1 Tropical Island (backup measure for Rafiq and needing U source)
Get 2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant into S/B. Her + rafiq = GG
I'd probably consider:
-1 Hierarch
+1 Eternal Witness
Interesting...do you feel that this applies to all lists or just rock...The only reason I asked is there were Zoo decks that placed that run both.....Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
the problem with gsz is that you have less disruption (hymn) It just looks like a junk and taxes list which is imo better as you get better games agaisnt control tribal, make a more stable manabase, tempo decks don't hurt as much, let's you curve out better and gives you more threats with utility. also you get more CA and virtual CA
How do you get better card advantage with less disruption hymm creates the best card advantage possible and punishes marginal hands...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow Maker
I actually feel like GSZ slowed and weakend the meta and under performed in its debute....In the fact that decks in the top 4 havent had a respectable showing like that in awhile....Whens the last time enchantress did somthing? or doomsday? Apparently the ole GSZ for pridemage just isnt as strong as everyone though it would be....
None of the top 4 ran GSZ and none of them had placed that high recently....I think there was the amount of zenith decks simply due to the fact the card is interesting and people wanted to try to use it and not because of its power and performance...
Its not coinsidence that all four of the top decks had not been able to post those places until everyone was trying to use zenith.
The change in the meta allowed them to do what they did..
Wow talk about self serving delusions. Anyway, lets move forward constructively. I still believe Hymm and GSZ can survive in the same deck. You have to sacrifice your manabase stability though. I play without basics to compensate for Hymm's double black. I know its ballsy, but look at the SCG winner, Team America. Hymm + no basics + 4 wastes. Same concept.
Thats my true feelings I'm not just saying it for the heck of it to get to anybody... After looking closely at the standings and lists thats what I saw...I could be off here but I guess the up coming standings for the next events will tell..
Also I saw lists place from the zoo decks that were with and without zenith which tells me zenith builds didnt over power theyre standard counterparts I feel like this is the case with other decks as well.....Its not uncommon to see a spike in the use of a good card at the first event after its release.. This is the first event people have had time to test with zenith and get theyre lists ready good and early...I think zenith is definately here to stay but wont be seen as previlant in the future...
My opinion purely based on conjecture is that GSZ is probably better for mid-range decks such as the Rock and not as good for fast decks like small Zoo. The reasoning being you will eventually get to the mid game and keep dropping land, GSZ will allow you to pull up a Goyf or KoTR for an extra mana AND it gets shuffled back into your deck which may or may not be relevant. It also helps you get around strange manabase issues like not having the white for KoTR.
Using it in small Zoo turns on Spell Pierce (as opposed to hardcasting the creature) and keeps Daze relevant for an extra turn, I don't see that helping your tempo.
I think it will shine the most in a mid-range deck that is forced to play less than the best green creatures (Tarmogoyf and KoTR). Then you can play more of your big threats (via GSZ) while still being able to find Silver Bullet creatures (also via GSZ). Making it like a worse/better SotF replacement.
My currently list is:
// Spells \\
4 Inquisition of Kozilek (Maybe split with Seize)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith (Tottaly insane!!!)
3 Vindicate (Pulse?)
2 Sylvan Library
2 Diabolic Edict (maybe split with Path to exile)
// Creatures \\
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Kitchen Finks (maybe 2)
3 Dark Confidant (Maybe 4)
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch (Birds is better?)
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
// Lands \\
3 Marsh Flats
3 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
2 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Plains
1 Swamp
// SB \\
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Choke
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Krosan Grip
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Relic of Progenitus
What did you thik? Any to change?
Thx
I don't think Rafiq is all that good, even if we can hardcast it off of Moxes/Nobles. It just seems win-more. Sure you could probably steal a few wins because people aren't expecting it, but I expect that in the majority of situations your double-striked guy will just get chumped, in which case getting Rafiq wasn't much better than just grabbing another Knight. And since we don't play RWM or evasion creatures we don't get as much out of Rafiq as Aggro Bant would. Maybe in a build with Elspeths and Moms it would work.
How about this for a GSZ rock list?
Lands (23):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith
Creatures (20):
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
Spells (17):
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 GSZ
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
Sideboard (15):
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Path to Exile
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Choke
1 Null Rod
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Trygon Predator
GSZ + Gaddock Teeg = bad match. He prevents you from casting it again.
Yea, but I think the benefits of being able to steal some games against combo game one outweigh the dissynergies. He's also not terrible against the rest of the format, shutting off Jaces and FoW.
There were 22 copies of Zenith in the top 16 of SCG DC, it was the fourth most played card behind Brainstorm, Goyf and Force of Will. What on earth are you rambling about?Quote:
Originally Posted by deezy
problem here is that you made GSZ one of your key-spells (kind of) and gaddock, even just as a one of, can completely shut of part of you own deck which i do not see as being profitable... besides combo (depending on which combo-deck) either kills you before you can search up gaddock or has ways to remove him
about GSZ i actually think the same thing as jazzykat, that it was mainly thought to replace the banned survival of the fittest, since it serves allmost the same purpose with the only difference of the tempo-loss compared to SotF
actually my first thought was .... hmmm , maybe with this playing vengevine will be viable again