[Deck] Dragon Stompy

I'm sorry, I have to be the typical naysayer regarding braid of fire.

The deck needs to be dropping lock pieces or threats (for now - maybe non-hellbent with some new draw engine card yet to be printed will exist and emerge in the future). This is neither. It's a borderline, slow, conditional threat augmenter. Has anyone actually unmorphed red akroma with this? What if it was a different creature and another creature... or a lock piece? Would the clock have been faster or your board position more secure? Probably.
Why are you playing braid of fire in the early game instead of chalice, trinisphere, magus of the moon, or blood moon and then a threat? In the mid game you need to be playing serious threats instead of something that can't attack and needs turns to ramp up.

In the late game, you can possibly get a decent pump but you'll be wishing you had beat them to death with the card that would have existed in your hand had it not been Braid.

The deck doesn't really have any form of card advantage (slogger and FTK are corner cases). It needs cards to interact with the opponent, especially in the early turns. It doesn't need a dead card with the 8 acceleration.
It needs to gain virtual card advantage by shutting off cards with chalice, turning them off with revoker, moon effects, and so on and so forth.
Mana for slogger activations or other pumps just isn't that necessary or game ending.

Having not tested it doesn't mean it can't logically be determined to be bad.


I think it is wrong wrong wrong for any version of this deck. I'd like to see Dragon Stompy grow and develop into a stronger deck but I don't think this is an innovation that is going to be useful.

Even the more aggressive versions of DS with less focus on control/locks would be better served with another threat in my opinion. Don't forget how hard dismember kills our threats. The threat count needs to be as dense as possible squeezing in damage where you can. I guarantee that when you can't race the opponent because you have no threat and a braid on the board you will cut it.

Not trying to hate. I just want the deck type to prosper. Please prove me wrong!



An aside - What are Dragon Stompy players doing to combat hive mind? I don't like sundial.
If anyone thinks they have a good sideboard I'd like to see it. Specifically, a sideboard that can fight NO, Emrakul, Dredge, Affinity/MUD, Hive Mind, and Merfolk

Cheers

Eh, I will back off the Braid of Fire for a bit, valid points have been made. Here is what I have been having decent success with for a bit now:

Creatures: 18
3x Shivan Wumpus
4x Fulminator Mage
2x Magus of the Moon
3x Deus of Calamity
2x Arc Slogger
4x Simian Spirit Guide

Spells: 23
4x Chrome Mox
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Blood Moon
4x Stone Rain
4x Seething Song
2x Molten Rain//other land destruction

Land: 19
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
11x Mountain/Snow-Covered Mountain

Sometimes I cut an Ancient Tomb and a (Snow-Covered Mountain) for either Wastelands, Ports (these don't work so well), or Mouth of Ronoms. Sideboard is my own personal metagame, and it's not like yours, it is casual legacy, so I storm the place with awesome power and obliterate everything. It's fun for a while, but I gotta get these kids playing fun mtg, not commander and crappy type two.

Anyway, suggestions are of great importance to me. Good/Bad, lmk.

-ABC

3R
Instigator Gang

Creature - Human Werewolf
Attacking creatures you control get +1/+0.
At the beginning of each upkeep, if no spells were cast last turn, transform Instigator Gang.
2/3

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Wildblood Pack

Creature - Werewolf
Trample
Attacking creatures you control get +3/+0.
At the beginning of each upkeep, if a player cast two or more spells last turn, transform Wildblood Pack.
5/5


Seems like an interesting creature for DS. It supports fast beatdown, and let Magus & Revoker swing for 5. Flip-condition is kinda stupid, but Moons can help, that the opponent plays no spells.

Imagine something like:
- turn 1 -> Tomb, Mox, Magus
- turn 2 -> Instigator Gang, with help of SSG or Song or something, swing with Magus [2]
- opponent couldn't play a spell thanks to Magus
- turn 3 -> Swing for 13 (Wildblood Pack [8] & Magus [5]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

Flip-condition is kinda stupid, but Moons can help, that the opponent plays no spells.

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Trinisphere, also prevents opponents from playing spells (and chalice of the void discourages it, but the spells still get played...)

Misstep was good times for Dragon Stompy. What's going on with this deck now?
Are players dusting off Goblins?

I desperately want to see this deck perform well.

Any predictions regarding how DS can combat the new meta?

Like always... Metadeck... If your meta is full of nonbasics, DS will rule, otherwise it craps to itself thanks to bad creatures and Stompy-constance.

just wanted to post a quick report about a local 30 man tourney that I won 4-0-1 - played against show and tell, dredge, high tide combo & suicide faeries.

I ran this list:
10 mountains
4x ancient tomb
4x city of traitors
4x chrome mox
4x simian spirit guide
3x seething song
4x magus of the moon
4x chalice of the void
3x trinisphere
3x blood moon
4x gathan raiders
4x rakdos pit dragon
3x arc slogger
2x koth, the hammer
4x phyrexian revoker

sb
2x cave-in
2x pyrokinesis
3x pyroblast
1x red elemental blast
2x shattering spree
2x tormod's crypt
1x umezejawas jitte
1x trinisphere
1x blood moon

show and tell died to moons and quick dragons, dredge died to poor decisions and spirit guides, high tide just died (pyroblasts helped), suicide faeries died to moons and their own upkeep.

the last matchup would have been maverick, and a quick fun game showed that although the matchup was winnable, the odds weren't all that high since the version the guy was running had firespout mainboard to deal with my revokers and magi, and once that batterskull hits the board, you're pretty much dead.

I don't get how you guys can just add moltensteel dragon for consistencies' sake - sure you can cast him for 2RR, but that 4 life + a removal and lots more potential life paid by you seems very discouraging. You might say "but I got chalice 1 / another disrupt, he won't get removed!" if that's the case, play something else that kills the enemy and doesnt take you dangerously low. Matchups like combo etc, where life totals dont matter until the very last turn (in the case of tendrils), aren't all that bad a matchup, and most aggro decks (read: our not so good matchups) usually have more than one kind of removal / will race you, in which case 4 damage is something you will feel, especially if you use your ancient tombs. I want the sloggers out of my deck as well, and I've found Koth as a possible replacement, I just would never play 4. all of this leads me to keep sloggers in, at least a few, and have a good anti-aggro MU card mainboard. Because if the matchup isnt aggro, and I'm secure against removal, slogger does the job as well.

If someone was going to pilot this during GP Amsterdam, what would be the 'best' list. The reason I am asking is because I am thinking about building the deck for Amsterdam, but I don't have too much experience with the archetype. I think it might be a good choice because I think the deck can hunt on all of the Snapcaster mage decks and have a decent combo matchup aswell!

Nice MasterKazoom. I agree, MoltenSteel will usually read: Pay 6 life (with Ancient Tombs) and you might lose to yourself.

Quick question: You brought in Pyroblasts against High Tide while keeping the Chalice in? I guess you can REB protect a turn 2 Chalice, but seems like it could potentially shut out some of your cards. Another question is: I want to see the suicide Faeries list :P

Against which decks do you side out the chalices for the blasts? Merfolk and Hive Mind?

Dang! i kinda wish i was still in the states to test ds in this meta.

For me the misstep era was pretty hideous for DS.
-Blade control is a terrible matchup
-Hive Mind is near impossible
-Merfolk is always a pain without heavy sb
-and Much combo was no where to be seen.
and for the most part, blade control and hive mind made up most of the meta.

With misstep out though, the meta's lookin nice.
-online, blade control seems to have probs with reanimator and team america (albeit it's online)
-Hive mind is still hive mind
-NO RUG and Zoo are manageable.
Team America seems to be the best beneficiary of snapcaster, and could/should eat up the meta. This might pave the way for DS to squeeze in :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mercs

-Hive Mind is near impossible

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What impact does Boil have?

do you think about this?
4 in MD?

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=244683

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vash

do you think about this?
4 in MD?

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=244683

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Nice, but don't you think that gathan riders do the job?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

Nice, but don't you think that gathan riders do the job?

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I am not very fond of hellbent versions

Hey guys. I haven't written and played for some time. Except for just one tournament, I really haven't been involved during spring and the MM period. However, more spare time's ahead and I've finally bought those lent City of Traitors.. So I'd like to share some raw thoughts with people here that play mostly competitive magic. Here goes:

1) I haven't faced Hivemind yet. I'd like to know why you all say it's that bad. My logic: Phyrexian Revoker shuts off Grim Monoliths, Trinisphere makes them play a pact the round after Show and Tell, and you can also pack 4 Red Blasts in your SB to fight SaT. Or even better, safely destroy Hivemind with REB if Trini is on the table already. A well placed Moon makes them pray for their 3 basic Islands. They only have 4 Force of Will to fight that, Pact of Negation does nothing before Hivemind's online. DS has speed. DS can run 2-3 Phyrexian Metamorphs main/SB to fight Emrakul. Oh, and chalice at 1 nullifies their Brainstorm/Ponder spells. Hell, on rare occasion you can even pay Pact of the Titan's upkeep cost with Seething Song. So...why all the fuss everywhere about a currently effective -but still- 3 card combo deck that's full of nonbasics? At worse, is this not a 50/50 match?

2) Next thing is also a question. Has anyone boiled down that Phyrexian Metamorph can safely reduce the graveyard hate to 2 pieces? Seems that copying reanimated stuff or SaT'd/hardcast Eldrazi can do the trick. A most solid answer to Iona too. What kind of decks do I miss that need so much graveyard hate AND are not answered adequately with Metamorph? I know that Ichorid plays in quite an unorthodox manner, I've also read that a LEDless version did well -recently I think- but again. A Trini or Blood Moon can bring this match to an even level I think.
Maybe NecroYawg can help in this, as he is adept with Ichorid. [We can test a bit in workstation in one week from now]. But about that sideboard grave hate, what decks do you fear that Phy.Metamorph cannot deal with? I mean: cannot deal at all. (Reminding that Revoker can shut off Knights of the Reliquary, and one of your Moons can stop the crucible-waste engine).

3) Here are some thoughts about reconstrusting this deck (oh no, not again!:), reevaluating each single part of it. What I did was gather up each card in DS's history(well, not Cyclops) in a workstation SB. Then I started writing in a paper about what I wanted the deck to do, using priority, and adding from workstation's SB to main deck.

I. What is the very first thing that comes to mind when thinking about DS? Disruption. Aggro is the second thing I personally choose to do, that can wait and be played after disruption, protected by it(when playing against the majority of the format). I haven't been the advocate of the 1st turn Slogger in most cases, surely not when I did not know yet what the other player was playing.
So, disruption. First and probably second turn disruption. So we need sol lands and mountains, chrome moxes(if we don't want to go artifact) and simian spirit guides. The question is just how much?

The basis so far is 10 Mountains and the 8 Tempest-block sol lands. Some guys played 11 Mountains, depending on the list. Here I'd like to offer a different perspective. I used a hypergeometric distribution board of "X lands in your initial seven cards". I copied it from a site(don't remember which), but I also double checked a sample of 10 results in this site: http://stattrek.com/Tables/Hypergeometric.aspx So the table seems to be correct. I also summed up the total of some probabilities. You'll see why.

Probability of drawing X Lands in Hand

Lands:

in hand__5______4_______3_______2______1_________0___0+6+7___0+5+6+7___1+2+3+4___2+3+4_____2+3____1+2+3__________________1+2_
/
in
deck

_26__9.56%__23.16%__31.22%__23.42%___9.05%
_25__8.19%__21.44%__31.18%__25.22%__10.51%
_24__6.93%__19.64%__30.87%__26.94%__12.10%
_23__5.80%__17.82%__30.29%__28.56%__13.84%
_22__4.79%__15.98%__29.43%__30.02%__15.73%
_21__3.90%__14.16%__28.33%__31.31%__17.74%_____________________________________________________________________________49,05%
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________>3,20
_20__3.13%__12.39%__26.98%__32.37%__19.88%________________________________________________________79,23%_______________52,25%_____>0,15
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________>1,48_________________>3,05
_19__2.47%__10.70%__25.41%__33.18%__22.12%___5,82%__6,12%____8,59%___91,41%___69,29%___58,59%___80,71%_____>0,39_____55,30%_____>0,20
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________>1,09_________________>2,85
_18__1.91%___9.10%__23.65%__33.70%__24.45%___6,99%__7,19%____9,10%___90,90%___66,45%___57,35%___81,80%_____>0,42_____58,15%_____>0,26
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________>0,67_________________>2,59
_17__1.45%___7.61%__21.73%__33.90%__26.84%___8,34%__8,47%____9,92%___90,08%___63,24%___55,63%___82,47%_____>0,48_____60,74%_____>0,35
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________>0,19_________________>2,24
_16__1.07%___6.24%__19.68%__33.74%__29.24%__________________11,10%___88,90%____________53,42%___82,66%_____>0,35_____62,98%_____>0,37
________________________________________________________________________________________________________>-0,16_________________>1,87
_15__0.77%___5.02%__17.55%__33.22%__31.63%_______________________________________________________82,40%_______________64,85%_____>0,47
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________>1,40
_14__0.54%___3.93%__15.38%__32.30%__33.95%____________________________________________________________________________66,25%
_13__0.36%___3.00%__13.21%__30.98%__36.14%
_12__0.23%___2.22%__11.08%__29.26%__38.13%

Please don't take this analysis as an axiom... I know some statistics, but I'm not a mathematician and this could be wrong.

In my opinion always, the ideal initial 7 cards are those with 1 or 2 lands. That's because:

(i) Turn 1 disruption can usually be cast with 1 or 2 lands (8 lands produce double colorless and we play 4 SSGs and 4 moxes).

(ii) While I want to be able to play disruption turn one, I also do not want to get mana-flooded. So hands with 3 lands are good, but could be better [I'll explain the logic behind this in (iii)]. Hands with 4 lands are bad -kept only if, say, I have that castable turn 1 disruption piece and 2 consecutive threats. Hands with 5+ lands, or with no lands at all, get reshuffled.

(iii) The printing of Phyrexian Revoker allowed us to play more spells at 2 mana. Also there is Chalice at 1. Kargan Dragonlord and/or Jitte (if used) are more spells at 2 cmc.

However the party in DS starts at 3 cmc, so I don't want to get stuck in 2. That is why I want your opinions here. The table above, and limited testing has showed that if DS curve is lower, you can play with 17 lands. 9 Mountains and a free slot, that's what this is all about, with even a better chance to draw a better initial hand if possible.

Now for some analysis of the table. Wherever you see X+Y it is the added probability of X and Y.
[At this point I must say that I honestly don't know why the hell the "2 lands in hand" column is the only column that peaks and declines again. But I notice that "3-5 land" columns increase, as you add more lands to your deck, and column 1-land decreases.]

The deck that has the largest possibility to give you two lands in your initial seven is the one with 17 lands (33,90%). With trivial difference from a 16L, a 18L deck, or even 19L. Among the 17, 18 and 19 land decks, it is the deck that has the largest probability of producing a 1 land hand too. But it is also the deck that has the largest probability of giving you zero lands, and the smallest probability of giving you 3 lands (among the 17, 18, 19). So what's next?

The next thing is to think about how much does anyone want to gamble safely with his/her deck. This is also a game of luck after all. The probability of a 17 land deck giving exactly zero land in your initial seven is 8,34%. For a typical 18 land dragon stompy that's 6,99%.

But do you only mulligan when you have zero lands in hand with this deck? No. You also mulligan when you have 5 lands. I also mulligan most of the times when I have 4, but that depends as I said. [6 and 7 land hands are estimated also, despite of being almost impossible].

So...the ideal hand has 1 or 2 or 3 lands. The chance that makes you want to mulligan that depends on the rest of your hand (nonland cards) seems irrelevant in this analysis, but if you want one more business spell in your initial seven, and simultaneously you want to be able to drop disruption turn 1, you'd better choose 17L, I think!

Since you cannot have simultaneously a starting hand with 3 cards exactly and a starting hand with 2 cards exactly, these are independent events and their probabilities can be added, to estimate another probability percentage. Now if we add the probabilities of these 1L, 2L, 3L desired events...then you'll see that the deck which has the largest added probability to give you 1 or 2 or 3 lands in the beginning is 16land.deck. But the difference between 16L and 17L in that case is 0,19%(noted besides). That's not much. And just because 2 lands in your starting hand are better than 1 or 3, that's why I think 17 land deck beats 16 just on the finishing line by an also trivial 33,90 - 33,70 = 0,20%.

Why don't you speak about 18 land stompy Ody? Because it is worse in getting you 1 land, 2 lands, 1 or 2 lands added, and 1 or 2 or 3 lands added. It is better in giving you 3 lands and better in the 2+3 lands probability. But I don't want that.
Why did you add those events' probabilities? Because if you do this subtraction: 100% minus the probability of your added ideal initial hands(concerning lands), you get the chance you have to mulligan(only concerning mana-screw or flood). So it's: 100% - Pr(ideal hand) = Pr(hand to be mulliganned). 100 - 82,47 = 17,53% for 17 land deck. Notice that this percentage is at a minimum at 16 lands (100 - 82,66 = 17,34).

This estimation is based solely on the mulligans caused by lands!

One small flaw in my logic is the automatic assumption that I mulligan 4 land hands -which hands can be totally random. Therefore, I assume I only want 1/2/3 Lands in my starting 7...
But I'm sure I have mulliganed more 4 land hands than I've kept. Please give me some insight right here dudes...do you often keep those 4L draws? Remember that one more land equals to one less spell (a worse chance to have one of your moon disruption pieces first round, or 1 less threat!)

So if you want to have a better possibility to have 3 lands, play 18L.deck, or even 19! If you want to have 1 land, play 17 (or...16)!
The 2 lands possibilities are about even. 17 gives a better chance to mana screw, 18, 19 give a better chance to mana flood.
We are talking about probabilities that are less than 5% here. But hey, that's a free slot. If, of cource, you agree with all this stuff.

One last thing. Your sol lands, moxes and apes, aren't reduced at all. And it is on the back of them mostly that you play your first lockpiece. Your larger dudes play with Seething Song. I would prompt you to test 1-2 forgotten caves in the place of the tenth and/or eleventh mountain, if you feel unsafe with 17 lands. Mr. Tacosnape had suggested this in the old thread for the record, along with keldon halberdier, in case somebody wants a 1 cost ability/spell that gets around chalice. Cave gets around Trini too.
I tried to bring the numbers, to provide you with choices according to your playstyle and list.

The large flaw in this whole shit is that I haven't estimated the average round of incoming lands when you draw. If I wanted to defend 18-19 land decks, I'd say: the mana recovery from the moon effects on your own sol lands is easier with those decks. I mean you get to 3 mana quicker, but I don't know how much quicker. The problem is when you're left at 1 mana. But! If you play 2 Dragonlords, 4 Revokers , 1-2 Jitte and...4 Chalices, you do have 2cmc choices, and most of them colorless, even in the scenario of mana screw caused by luck (and not moons or trini).
Achtung! If you play 17L, DON'T drop Trini 1st turn, unless you can go on, or the blow upon your opponent's plan is stronger! (Whom 're ye advising ye bloody idiot? Many o these guys probably play a lot bett'r than yuu:))

II. The next thing after lands and disruption is speed and winning conditions. Seething Song, Priest or both? More weenie or more fat guys? Actually this post got a lot bigger than planned. So I won't make your balls swallow any more from disgust. I'm just posting my recent experimental list and a last paragraph.


8 Sol lands
9 Mountain!

3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Vooooooooooooooooooo-iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidd....>SPLATCH!!<
4 Moxies
2 Chaos Warp (in the role of the infamous oh-shit button)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (could be a 4th Trini, especially in this list! But since I pack 3 Metamorphs main, I want to have something to bring when I copy Stoneforge Mystic)

4 Affe! (= Simian Spirit Guides:)
4 Magus of the Moonstar of Limbo
4 Needles on legs (aka Phyrexian Revoker)
2 Kargan Dragonlords
3 Priests of Urabrask (A bridge to 1st turn lockpiece and aggro. I want to play this guy early, but I prefer not to see him twice)
3 Phyrexian metamorph (This guy is the definition of non-counterspell versatility. An answer to their fat, also copies our fat. Gets your own sensei's. Also copies priest and then you play sth and get mindbreak trapped:))
2 Gathan Raiders
1 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Instigator Gang // Wildblood Pack

17 lands, 17 spells.....26 creatures! If you don't want Chaos Warp and Jitte, you can get to 28-29 easily! This just could be the best thing to do, if our favorite deck is weak in topdeck mode.

SB:

3 Ratchet Bombs
1 Anarchy (bomb #4 against white shiny thingies)
1 Shattering Spree (same)
4 Red Elemental Blasts (Hivemind, Merfolk, and it's generally super vs. Wizards' favorite child...and that is blue of course, as we all know)
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 free slots - Volcanic fallout, trini, moon, null rod, null brooch, whatever. You can even play a single sword, and bring it with metamorphed Stoneforge Mystic game 2.


Werewolf is all the equipment these guys need. If you are patient and play defence for a round he's just grand. You can level up Kargan meanwhile, or Warp your second Moon or unimprinted mox in opponent's EoT. You'll have an extra pumped up attacker, and it will hurt.
Even if the other guy gets rid of all his brainstorms and StPs that your chalice counters, it is good pressure to do that. If your chalice is gone, his hand won't be that full. The werewolves have the opposite effect of Mauler: they force the other guy play spells or get smashed.
One thing's for sure. If he gets huge, we can use this trample damage and the pumping. If.
-I was thinking of combining 4 Maulers with 4 Gangs because they "complement" in away one another, but that reason only seemed a bit "casual".
-Only 2-4 Hellbent dudes are good if you want more time to prepare your hellbent, and have them at their maximum once they arrive. You can play with half of the hellbent engine you know.
-Taurean Mauler vs. Kargan. I think Kargan wins. He is better late game, and about equal early (considering possible mana problems).
-The curve stops at 4 as you see for more consistency, and just because those 4 cmc slots are taken, I didn't add LoSP, Moltensteel or Slogger, even though I love them. Slogger plays well with song and more land.
-Other spells under consideration...1 Bonehoard / 1 Tuktuk the Explorer / the werewolf Vash said (..and 1-2 Batterskull in my Seething Song list!)

I'm sorry you had to suffer one more of my large posts:) I really hope my statistics are not wrong. Maybe I'll re-edit, and make this thing more readable.
Just because ALL this hasn't been tested on competitive environment yet, and I want to detect any flaws early, sharing your own experience/aspect would be great.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 0dysseus

-Other spells under consideration...1 Bonehoard / 1 Tuktuk the Explorer / the werewolf Vash said (..and 1-2 Batterskull in my Seething Song list!)

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that wolf deserves a chance :smile:

Combo arises, RUG, Team america, maverick DTB...give this deck a chance!

My first approach!!

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
10 [ZEN] Mountain (4a)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
2 [MR] Arc-Slogger
3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
4 [FUT] Gathan Raiders
4 [DIS] Rakdos Pit Dragon

// Spells
4 [9E] Seething Song
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [9E] Blood Moon
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [WWK] Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [TE] Boil
SB: 2 [IA] Anarchy

reviewing wolves I prefer Vashwolf :smile: (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=244683) as being 1/5 helps against aggro and can handle some sparks something that the other wolves can not, cost 3 allows us to play it first turn and a the song could also play a chalice x1 or jitte.

Team America, Combo & RUG yeah... Really good MUs for DS

But I honestly can't see how this deck should beat Maverick [which is HIGHLY overplayed here]... =(