[Deck] Dredge

Grudge's utility goes beyond simply Relic and Crypt; it is far more multilateral against problematic equipment (Jitte, Batterskull, and Plating), in addition to creating a diffusion for opponents who would then have to play around it. The whole point of the card is to initiate interaction and reaction from your opponent by forcing them to activate said artifact, which is fine.

Dredge (depending on which variant you're gearing yourself towards) has a variety of ways rebounding through hate, in addition to having tools to fight it. The argument for or against something like Grudge is interchangeable because of how subjective it is. Additionally, Dredge is an incredibly situational archetype, so what might be good in one set of circumstances might not be the best in another.

Went 1-2 playing today. I can do the blame game but you know I should realize to trust my gut. Round 1 I faced burn and won game 1 games two and three he had double cage to start off :(. Game three in that series I was on the play had rainbow land therapy narc and some irellivant cards. No dredgers and no drawl spells so I decited to mull. I dunno if that was the right play considering I could have cabaled named cage got two and brought him to five cards. However I would have had to rely on luck for the rest of the game. Round 2 I was against a white red aggro modern deck and game one blew him out of the watter game two my opening had was good I thought at one land two careful studys one loot two led's and one narc. I looted into a dredger and then proceeded to rip into my deck never finding anything but two ichorids. Game three was much like game 2 without as much as a powerful opener I dredge 3 trolls one thug and one stink and I got an active ichorid :(. Round 3 was against canadian thresh and I blew him away game 1 almost a turn 1 kill with break led looting I dredged 33 first turn. Second game proceeded along with the first he extracted my bridges I brought in a huge troll and had three ichorids mean mugging at him and he scoops. I saw one break and it makes me wonder if its really nessasary to have it. With 8 drawl 2 pitch 2 cards and coliseum im not convinced its nessasary.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Isaac

Went 1-2 playing today. I can do the blame game but you know I should realize to trust my gut. Round 1 I faced burn and won game 1 games two and three he had double cage to start off :(. Game three in that series I was on the play had rainbow land therapy narc and some irellivant cards. No dredgers and no drawl spells so I decited to mull. I dunno if that was the right play considering I could have cabaled named cage got two and brought him to five cards. However I would have had to rely on luck for the rest of the game. Round 2 I was against a white red aggro modern deck and game one blew him out of the watter game two my opening had was good I thought at one land two careful studys one loot two led's and one narc. I looted into a dredger and then proceeded to rip into my deck never finding anything but two ichorids. Game three was much like game 2 without as much as a powerful opener I dredge 3 trolls one thug and one stink and I got an active ichorid :(. Round 3 was against canadian thresh and I blew him away game 1 almost a turn 1 kill with break led looting I dredged 33 first turn. Second game proceeded along with the first he extracted my bridges I brought in a huge troll and had three ichorids mean mugging at him and he scoops. I saw one break and it makes me wonder if its really nessasary to have it. With 8 drawl 2 pitch 2 cards and coliseum im not convinced its nessasary.

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Took like 15 minutes to understand what you've written. Lol.

@thread

Finally I could get my hands in a playset of Lion's Eye Diamond again. My friend finally sold his Belcher.dec, and I could buy the LEDs.

I've been toying arround with a pretty standard list:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Tarnished Citadel

3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting

SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Nether Shadow
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Dread Return
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Putrid Imp

Main deck seems fine, and sideboard is a little experimental. Nether Shadows have been awesome, and the DR package, as well. But everything else seemd unnecessary or useless. Any comments or criticism?

You're better off cutting Faerie Macabre for Tireless Tribes IMO, it's not enough hate to matter.

@vandalize: Tell me more about nether shadow. I assume it comes in versus surgical extraction. What have you been siding out for them? Have they certainly won you some games?

I can see 1-2 Nether Shadow, but 3-4 seems a bit much to me.

They seem good in any match where you can't rely upon having bridge in your graveyard. Surgical extraction, ofc, seems to be the most reliable avenue for preventing bridges from being active. Beyond Surgical Extraction (and the rare Extirpate), there aren't many matches where this is common though (a well-played Sligh deck with certain creatures would be only of the only example decks which have reliable ways to prevent bridges from being active -- getting Iona online is important in this matchup, making Nether Shadow exceptional).

Nether Shadow also seems not awful in any match that is going to be plain grindy, but often enough, I find that I grind until I've exhausted their resources (e.g. eating/answering/forcing 2 crypts), and then I try to explode out, which is not a place for Nether Shadow.


peace,
4eak

I saw the list that had Bloodghasts, Dryad Arbor and Fetches - it was depressing. I really like thinking out of the box, but doing so just for the sake of doing so is even more counter-productive. Did I see that right? The list was running just 8 Dredgers? :eek:

I'm honestly not against any specific card that was in the list, as I try my best to keep an open mind about new ideas. What was mildly concerning, though, was the following statement, which might mislead others into believing claims that are made without sound reasoning:

• "This is a weird design in that it goes against current Dredge theory, and I believe that is exactly what we should be doing, revising in the face of new information and new technology."

I hope that what was meant by that is that "we should be revising in the face of new information and new technology", not that we should all take on the "weird design that goes against current Dredge theory".

Kind Regards,
jares

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jares

I saw the list that had Bloodghasts, Dryad Arbor and Fetches - it was depressing. I really like thinking out of the box, but doing so just for the sake of doing so is even more counter-productive. Did I see that right? The list was running just 8 Dredgers? :eek:

I'm honestly not against any specific card that was in the list, as I try my best to keep an open mind about new ideas. What was mildly concerning, though, was the following statement, which might mislead others into believing claims that are made without sound reasoning:

• "This is a weird design in that it goes against current Dredge theory, and I believe that is exactly what we should be doing, revising in the face of new information and new technology."

I hope that what was meant by that is that "we should be revising in the face of new information and new technology", not that we should all take on the "weird design that goes against current Dredge theory".

Kind Regards,
jares

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I don't think what you do with your MD matters that much, and that's the problem that leads so many Dredge players astray. Dredge is just so unfair vs. everything game 1 that you can win with almost whatever configuration you want to win with, it's really how your MD works with your SB vs. specific hate that matters more than anything else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jares

I saw the list that had Bloodghasts, Dryad Arbor and Fetches - it was depressing. I really like thinking out of the box, but doing so just for the sake of doing so is even more counter-productive. Did I see that right? The list was running just 8 Dredgers? :eek:

I'm honestly not against any specific card that was in the list, as I try my best to keep an open mind about new ideas. What was mildly concerning, though, was the following statement, which might mislead others into believing claims that are made without sound reasoning:

• "This is a weird design in that it goes against current Dredge theory, and I believe that is exactly what we should be doing, revising in the face of new information and new technology."

I hope that what was meant by that is that "we should be revising in the face of new information and new technology", not that we should all take on the "weird design that goes against current Dredge theory".

Kind Regards,
jares

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I have concerns with that specific list, but there are some interesting and thought provoking ideas in the concept.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I don't think what you do with your MD matters that much, and that's the problem that leads so many Dredge players astray. Dredge is just so unfair vs. everything game 1 that you can win with almost whatever configuration you want to win with, it's really how your MD works with your SB vs. specific hate that matters more than anything else.

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I generally agree, and your statements put things into perspective.

Cheers,
jares

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jares

I generally agree, and your statements put things into perspective.

Cheers,
jares

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I think it's true to the extent based on the strength of the pilot who is capable of remembering triggers and stacking things appropriately. Mulligans are obviously also huge. I think the risks between balancing wins and losses derives a bit more from experience or lack there of.

Dredge might have an incredible game one win percentage, but that can be all for nothing if someone doesn't know what in God's name they're doing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

I think it's true to the extent based on the strength of the pilot who is capable of remembering triggers and stacking things appropriately. Mulligans are obviously also huge. I think the risks between balancing wins and losses derives a bit more from experience or lack there of.

Dredge might have an incredible game one win percentage, but that can be all for nothing if someone doesn't know what in God's name they're doing.

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+1 for truth value, being a long time dredge player I love playing against people who don't know what they are doing piloting this deck. I've been given so many free wins at scg events by dredge pilots who miss plays.

I'm one of those players that when goldfishing or testing I never miss anything but when I play at a large tourney I get nervous/anxious for some reason and make alot of errors and miss Ichorid triggers most often. That's why I stopped playing dredge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rxavage

I'm one of those players that when goldfishing or testing I never miss anything but when I play at a large tourney I get nervous/anxious for some reason and make alot of errors and miss Ichorid triggers most often. That's why I stopped playing dredge.

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In my experience, it does take a lot of practice to have these functions be second nature. I've mentioned before that I talk a lot when playing Dredge, announcing each phase, each trigger, etc. That helps me remind myself (and my opponent) of the things that I need to be aware of.

Cheers,
jares

I'll be actually playing dredge again on Saturday at BoM Legacy Main Event...Normal Quadlazer -4 Claims +4 Chains as I expect a lot of RUG, Maverick, Nic Fit and Reanimator´, also some people with some Pimped out Rogue-ish decks, or oldschool Decks, so I figured Chain is more like a catch-all. Wish me luck!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

I'll be actually playing dredge again on Saturday at BoM Legacy Main Event...Normal Quadlazer -4 Claims +4 Chains as I expect a lot of RUG, Maverick, Nic Fit and Reanimator´, also some people with some Pimped out Rogue-ish decks, or oldschool Decks, so I figured Chain is more like a catch-all. Wish me luck!

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Looking forward to your results! :smile:

Cheers,
jares

Greetings dredge players. I have a friend who is considering picking up this deck and I am helping him build a list. It has been a few years since I played dredge and some things have changed so I would like your help with a few simple questions:

In a smaller meta where you can expect certain decks all the time is LEDless the better choice due to the guarantee of certain hate? i.e. it seems like LED gets hated out easier unless im mistaken. From what ive seen lately dredge is now very consistant with the printing of looting so maybe LEDs combo element is superior in all respects? Budget is a consideration but if LED is outright better, especially in the face of hate then we will go this route.

I couldnt find the answer to this browsing this thread but has griselbrand been considered as a DR target? Seems powerful as a wincon and dredge enabler but maybe its just not fast enough or 'win more' idk. I suppose it would also have the benefit of being a weak form of hate against sneak and show due to the legend rule.

Is 3-4 ichorid still correct? Ive seen many lists that only run 2.

Ive read hollywoods primer which rocks btw, but it still leaves some doubt as to which variation is preferred/better (as it should be).

Thanks in advance.

Hey there dredgers, Just wanted to share a nifty lil tourney report from the GP Minneapolis Legacy side event:

Deck:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Colisseum
1 undiscovered paradise

4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
2 golgari thug
3 ichorid
4 narcomoeba
4 putrid imp
1 flame-kin zealot

4 careful study
4 faithless looting
3 breakthrough
3 dread return
3 cabal therapy

4 lions eye diamond
4 bridge from below

SB:
1 Iona
1 Flayer of the Hatebound (awesome suprise card, btw)
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Elesh Norn
1 ancient grudge
1 ray of revelation
2 nature's claim
3 chain of vapor
4 Leyline of Sanctity (MVP)

I know this list was a little messy, but I felt the most comfortable with this as-is. Now that I don't have to worry about borrowing LED, I can finally mess around with it to see what sticks. Any way heres the tourney:

Round 1- Elf Aggro
This was my good friend that came along with me to the GP, and since he scrubbed the main tourney, he decided to play some legacy with me, and lo and behold he was paired against me R1. Anyway, he basically lawnmowed me G1, since he was pumping out elves faster then hell, and my dredges turned up absolutely no help
G2- Sided in Iona, Elesh Norn, and 4 Leylines since i know he runs tormod's crypt. I started with 1 leyline in play, but he was able to land 1 crypt on me after gripping my leyline, but his deck slowed down on him, as I was able to dredge with 2 careful studies and a break through, and I was able to return an elesh norn, which cleaned up his board
G3- No leyline off the bat, but he saw no crypt, so all was well. Game progressed much like the first, except my draw engine was on a coliseum. I was able to elesh and make my dudes very large, FTW

1-0

R2- vs Burn Deck 1
G1- He was whittling me down with some lava spikes and swings from a 1/1 figure of destiny, locked on 2 mountain. the turn after he tapped down I cast cabal therapy naming lightning bolt, and trashed 2, and left him with 2 fireblasts. Dredge got me turn 4 with 8 tokens, and a zealot to seal the deal
G2- I side in the Iona with 4 leyline, and land 1 from turn zero after 1 mulligan. He attempted to flame rift and price of progress me til I was down to 4 life, and then did the exact same thing to him G1

2-0
R3- RUG (no delver/mongoose)
G1- I ran my turn 1 and turn 2 putrid imps into FoW, and he wasted both my lands. I spent the rest of the game attempting to DDD, but to no avail, as he maintained control with goyfs and consecutive Mindsculptors
G2- I side in 2 natures claim and a flayer of the hatebound. His FoW once again met a turn 1 imp. Thankfully he didn't have answers to turn 2 breakthrough on 1, and a turn 3 breathrough on 0 to dredge up a huge abundance of creatures. I killed him with Flayer/Grave troll damage
G3- since I wanted to approach siding against his deck a little differently, I replacied the claims with chain of vapors, so he couldn't lay into me with goyf like game 1. Incidently the rest of his side showed its ugly face when he crypted a troll and 2 bridges away, and then crypted on turn 4 for 3 therapys and a looting. we maintain a stand still in later turns when i'm finally able to sort of stablize with 2 narcos facing a 3/4 goyf, although his clock was significantly faster. A pyroblast for a saving chain of vapor and a surgical extraction on my dread returns sealed the deal for him

2-1

R4- Burn Deck 2
I'm just gonna pass this one, since it turned out exactly like the first burn match, except for goblin guide giving me a winning coliseum game 2. Afterwards he told me he forgot to side in chaos warp and anarchy for my leylines. Oh well...

R5- ID
3-1-1

TOP4
R1- NO Bant
G1-A weak keep against something I had completely forgotten about, and I was staring down a Scavenging Ooze that slowly chomped away at my grave.
G2- I tried a grudge and 3 chain of vapors from my SB. I mulled to 6, and kept 1 land with a therapy, and no better support. I figured it I could possibly get to DDD a little bit faster keeping this mull. the therapy on Knight of the Reliquary nabbed one, but a natural order on a hierarch grabbed another, and then found a tabernacle (?!). My taxing on my hardcasted narco was pinning me for 1 each turn, and then a natural order on an arbor found progenitis.

All and all, this was a very positive experience. Thanks for reading! :D

Guys, I'm having trouble against Sneak Attack (my friend run a lot of counters and Pimp and Studies are always countered).
I usually win DDDing, trying to get 6 permanents on board and putting the Imp to block Emrakul (Progenitus is slower and easier to win).
What's the overall strategy against this deck? Is SBing Sudden Spoiling worth it?

Went to a 41-man tourney and played the following list:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy

3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Putrid Imp

3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass


4 Leyline of the Void
3 Tarnished Citadel
1 Memory's Journey
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim


Game 1 against EsperStoneBlade:

R1: Turn 2 kill
R2: He finds no hate and loses against two 11 Trolls :D

1-0

Game 2 against High Tide ( Holy shit!! )

R1: Have some Tokens and attack him all the time and he thinks a bit and decided to wish into extraction to my Ichorids. He has two life and draws his fourth land to go off...

R2: i dredge and dredge and have 22 cards left in my library...he said: "nice, i need storm 7... he played some stormspells and countered his own preordain twice...( i had a city of brass untapped ).. Memory's Journey wins!
btw, 3 times extracted..

R3: I have the following hand: land, land, land, coliseum, looting, looting, thug ... i kept this and play looting into land and thug and i discard the two thugs..he extracted them and saw my hand with lands and looting... he thought about it and extracted my looting. In the end i have five land in play ( two are coliseums ) and i drew a golgari grave troll ... HARDCAST!! And what happens? He extracted him ( zero creatures in my grave).. After some rounds i play therapy and the therapy got extracted after naming high tide... ( 4th extraction... ) End of turn he played wish into high tide... he drew and played two meditate and fizzled.. i have three turns now and i FINALLY got it... what a game...

2-0


Game 3 against Burn

R1: I luckily win with Flayer with one life left..
R2: I kept land, looting, looting, GGT, therapy, bridge, LED. He played Goblin guide and he reveals a gemstone mine. I drew a LED. Turn 2 kill, due to no Dread Returns in my grave :( otherwise turn 1 kill...

3-0

Game 4 against Sneak and Show

R1: Lost against Griselbrand + Emrakul
R2: I dredged some cards and he played Intuition end of turn into 3x Sneak Attack (wtf?).. I had 2 coliseums in play and a putrid imp in hand and he said, with show and tell i could play putrid imp. I won with this: Dredge 6: Moeba, Moeba, Moeba, Bridge, Dread Return, Flayer!!!

R3: Turn 2 kill

At the end, i said to him, that he had won with 3x Grafdigger's Cage with Intuition. I had no out for it and i need two cards to destroy it.

4-0

Game 5 against Miracle Whip

R1: Lost against CounterTop. He countered all my spells and i only had 1cc cards in hand. Top wins..
R2: He didn't find hate and said lets go game 3
R3: He removed my some dredgers, sworded my creatures and played CounterTop... After 20 minutes there is the first Entreat the Angels.. I said in response to top activation, memory's journey and he looked at the top 3 cards and found a snapcaster to counter it with counterbalance..

4-1

Game 6 against RUG Delver

R1: He had nothing and after naming a card with therapy: Game 2
R2: He mulled to 5 and got nothing.. I had double LED + looting/land/dredger. GG

5-1


2. out of 41

If you have any questions left or something just ask me..

K1w1