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I tried Porphyry Nodes in several Standard decks and they sucked ass. A lot. The new wording that prevents abuse with untargetable creatures makes them incredibly ineffective. I have a hard time believing they work that well in Legacy. How are you finding them to be?
I dont think that it targets.
7/15/2006 This card's ability is not targeted, so even untargetable creatures or those with Protection can be chosen.
That is striaght from the gatherer. Did it change since then?
If they target, they suck, but as far as I know (and everyone who I've spoken to/played against appears to know) they don't target.
I haven't had as much experience with them as I'd like, but in the times they've been on the field, they end up playing a reasonable amount like a slightly weaker dystopia. I can just drop one, and have it play crowd controll while I rip their hand and mana apart. Like I said, I'm not 100% sold yet due to lack of real playtime, but they seem quite promising. And I'm to retarted to remember their name, which kinda sucks.
EDIT: A few posts on the last page I didn't see.
@Zilla: I meant serra avatar. yeah, that one from saga with power and toughness equal to your life total. It was mostly an example of a fat white creature :tongue:
@Pootank: I don't think they're overkill because they tend to come in against different creature decks. Plague is almost solely there for goblins and Dystopia is mostly there for thresh, although it does tend to hit a bajillion other things. Nodes was mostly as a compliment to those two, which I still seemed to be having slight troubles with. As far as extirpate goes, I've had a similar amount of experience with it as nodes, but similarly, I like what I see. Generally scrolls and a smallpox/something else go out for them against combo, just the weakest cards in the matchup. It's a strong play to nab solidarity's tides or meditates and it's just mean to grab IGGY's tendrils, as most builds run no backup.
Cheers!
Don't you find Porphyry nodes one turn too slow? You can't play it when there are no creatures, and from when you play it, it takes one more turn to work... Therefore you still take the damage at least once, making it hard to stabilize using Nodes on lower life...
Furthermore, unlike Swords, it doesn't answer t1 Lackey...
I would bet turn one Nodes does just fine against the Lackey draw unless they get SGC into play.Quote:
Furthermore, unlike Swords, it doesn't answer t1 Lackey...
The problem was exactly that it doesn't target, so I couldn't keep it around forever by using pro-White creatures. At best, they worked as kind of a double Reciprocate - they'd kill a couple of creatures, but at the cost of letting them swing once or twice before dying. The exception was when I had Sacred Mesa in play (remember, it was Standard), which was quite an insane combo, if very mana-intensive.
The upside with the new wording is that it can kill Mongoose, but I strongly doubt you'd bring it in against Threshold (whose creatures are often bigger than yours).
So, what's the verdict on Porphyry Nodes? Personally, with a control deck that tends to take so much damage, I'd prefer my removal to save me a few points of life instead of forcing me to take the damage first...
Just to put this into perspective, do we play dystopia? Doesn't dystopia take a few turns to kill a couple creatures? Doesn't dystopia cause us to take 6+ points of damage?
I like nodes not because it's massive or fast creature removal, but because it's cheap to cast and you can do other stuff while it's doing its job. It doesn't cause your opponent to gain life, and can create card advantage if you play it carefully.
Dystopia can do its job before the upkeep after the turn you play it, as it takes effect on your opponent's turn. In other words, it can destroy a creature for 1BB and no life loss, although you're not going to do that often. Also, it sweeps the opponent's board before Nodes does(saving you a turn of combat damage, which could be more than Dystopia's upkeep cost).
EDIT:Also, when I draw Nodes later in the game when I'm out of gas, I generally wish it were a Swords...
Is Sphere of Law playable here? It seems if you get it out early(on the back of the omnipotent Dark Ritual), Mono R Gobbos would have a tough time getting rid of it(Anarchy costs 4 on no accel, and can be Duressed or Hymned), and splash Gobbos would have to waste Disenchants on it, which wouldn't be directed to your Plagues...Also solves the problem of Burn(if any), and the time Sphere buys you gives you plenty to drop a Shade or Grunt and start winning...
Sorry if this has been discussed before...
This is the list I've been playing on MWS and I've been pretty happy with it so far:
B/w Deadguy
Lands (21)
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
6 Swamp
4 Wasteland
Creatures (14)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Black Knight
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Jotun Grunt
Spells (25)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
Sideboard (15)
4 Engineered Plague
3 Dystopia
2 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Vindicate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte
I'll explain some of the weird choices.
I think 21 lands is more than enough without Smallpox... the deck has 4 Rituals and draw power to support it.
I realize I run no Specter. I don't like Specter. Evasion is great and so is random discard, but I don't like the fact that I'm paying 3cc for a 2/2 guy.
Black Knight is extremely strong. Being a 2/2 for 2cc isn't spectacular but the abilities are amazing. First strike stack blocking is great vs any midrange aggro, like Thresh. It's also nice that it dodges StP, since even 14 threats is still threat-light. It also takes down Goblin Piledriver pretty nicely. With the Jitte slapped on it postboard, it can get pretty strong.
I like the 4/2 StP/Vindicate split. StP is an answer to a 1st turn Lackey and fits much better into the curve early game. Reversing the split is an option, I'm not sure yet. I don't really think I need more than 2 MD answers to artifacts/enchantments though, and I don't think I need additionals to compliment the LD package due to my draw package.
Phyrexian Arena rounds the deck out. This is probably the biggest eyesore in my list to most people. 1BB for something that doesn't even do anything the turn it's cast. However, once it starts generating card advantage, it gives me more removal, LD, and threats. It's my late game piece, since B/w Deadguy often has problems in topdeck mode when the game goes late. 1st turn Ritual into Arena gives me such a huge advantage against just about everything. It's also harder to remove than Confidant, which likes to die very easily. I haven't had many issues with the life loss yet but I haven't played enough to really say for sure. I like what it does for the deck though.
As far as my sideboard goes, it's a work in progress. Plague and Dystopia handles Goblins and Thresh (and Fish/AS) respectively. Veridct gives me more discard vs combo, Vindicate gives me more permanent removal if needed, and Umezawa's Jitte handles small aggro hordes (Goblins) or larger midrange aggro. I like Pithing Needle because it not only answers randomness, it makes LD effective vs Goblins (Vindicate can deal with Vial too, but Needle shuts down all Needle's and lets me direct Vindicates elsewhere).
My build isn't fine-tuned yet by any means but I think some of the ideas deserve a good bit of testing before dismissing them (like Black Knight and Phyrexian Arena).
IMO, a turn 1 Phyrexian Arena would mean your turn 1 is not spent to Ritual out some disruption. Especially on the draw, essentially playing something which does nothing but costs a Ritual isn't exactly something you want to be doing, as your opponent may get more threats on the table than you can answer comfortably(especially since you've blown a Ritual to play the Arena, meaning you wouldn't have enoguh mana to disrupt)...
I personally like the idea of running Phyrexian Arena, but probably as only a one or two of for the lategame...
Well, that is very true, although most decks typically don't do much during the first turn (turn 1 Brainstorm, turn 1 Vial/Lackey, etc). Starting the card advantage engine on turn 2 and beyond means that I get to play sufficient disruption and beats thereafter. It's probable that it's a bad first turn play, whether that being dependant on situation or just in general, and I'd like to do more testing with it.Quote:
IMO, a turn 1 Phyrexian Arena would mean your turn 1 is not spent to Ritual out some disruption. Especially on the draw, essentially playing something which does nothing but costs a Ritual isn't exactly something you want to be doing, as your opponent may get more threats on the table than you can answer comfortably(especially since you've blown a Ritual to play the Arena, meaning you wouldn't have enoguh mana to disrupt)...
In the games where I have resolved it during the game, it has helped me greatly. Though the feeling isn't much different than what Confidant does... the only major differences are the consistent 1 damage a turn as opposed to the 0-3 of Confidant, the fact that it hardly ever gets removed, and the fact that it doesn't do anything besides draw me a card.
For the moment, the 3 Arena's have been doing fairly well, although large amounts of testing would need to be done in order to figure out how much it's actually helping as opposed to other options for the slots they hold in the deck. Another factor that needs weighed in is what it's actually doing for problematic or Tier 1 matchups... I could try to be speculative and theorize about this but it's much better to just playtest such instead.
Also, about your list, is having only 10 cards that can possibly blow up land enough? Sometimes personally, even on 15 cards which can blow lands up, I find not enough land destruction to actually be more than a temporary distraction for an opponent...
The LD in this deck isn't about locking every opponent out of mana, it's about messing with each deck that rides the ragged edge of "just enough land," which, in Legacy, is a lot of decks. This is also the reason that Sinkhole is the most commonly boarded out card in the deck - when you do play against a deck with lots of mana, your dedicated LD becomes fairly ineffective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG
That "temporary distraction" you observe is part of the plan to get ahead in card quality (discard spells) and board position (controlling the ground with Shade and out-drawing the opponent with Confidant).
However, I do agree that you should usually run the full set of Vindicates, since they aren't just vanilla LD overload.
Ah, point noted, but you have to know that by 'temporary distraction', I meant until my opponent untapped and played another land, because I generally drew only one land destruction effect...The short duration wasn't long enough to capitalize on, yet it would have been different if I had an extra land-blowind effect.
I think I don't like arena for the same reason I don't like extirpate in a lot of matchups. It does nothing NOW. It also seems like a uni-tasker, only drawing cards and nothing else, which this deck has avoided very nicely (save perhaps shade). I've also rarely felt starved in the late game with this deck, especially when a 3cc draw spell that generates card advantage starting the third turn after it's cast would've helped. usually I want that sort of digging to grab lands to recover from my own smallpoxes , and arena sounds like a poor way to do it. In fact, I'd rather play top and up the fetch count to 7/8.
Uh...pardon the noobish question, but how does this deck answer Mother of Runes maindeck? It seems that one would roll over and die to that thing, unless having an already dominant board position...
Mother of Runes can do nothing against Hippy without a flier, Plague, or Cursed Scroll. Plus, if they tap her to protect something else, you can Vindicate her.
Yea, but about the Hyppie, Angel Stompy and Fish generally have faster clocks than us...I don't see how racing them gives us even a chance...
Also, I don't run Plague maindecked, and Cursed Scroll seems too slow to beat Angel Stompy's clock...
And, when they tap Mom to protect something else, they're probably trading the Mom for 2 cards...a creature of mine which blocked their creature protected, and the Vindicate, or 2 Vindicates... Sounds pretty good for them, no?