Yes to your first question. And DRS is fine if you want another mana dude.
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If anyone listened to the latest Everyday Eternal podcast, they discussed a Junk Nic Fit build that one of the hosts has been running lately:
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Zealous Persecution
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Council's Judgement
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Dryad Arbor
22 land
4 Siege Rhino seems crazy, but it fits in with the Recurring Nightmare idea to just loop two of them back and forth. I'd rather loop one along with a Thragtusk to get the token as well. They also discuss the use of Sun Titan as another card-recurring engine, but I'm not sure I like the idea of running a creature that you can't find with GSZ.
Yes, I have been running a very similar list to Matt lately. I was inspired by Kevin's Spike Feeder / Archangel of Thune deck that he took to eternal weekend. Playing Siege Rhino in legacy is so much fun, it just takes everyone by surprise. My biggest struggle with the deck has been mana denial surprisingly, with combo not being too much of an issue because of therapy and maindeck teeg. The deck has an amazing UWR matchup which is one of the biggest draws to it. UR can go under you pretty easily, but only 12 post goes over the top of you. Most of the other fair matchups in the format feel pretty biased in your favor save the occasional delver nut.
Sun titan was awesome when I played it, but I have since cut it for Primeval Titan to fetch out Phyrexian Tower, Volrath's Stronghold, and/or Karakas depending on the situation. I also like having a zenith target at 6. The two towers give you a scary amount of inevitability with less wasteland in the format.
I need to be prepared for storm, omnitell, sneak attack (mono red version too), tin fins, miracles, uwr blade (turn off DTT, TC, Jace, EE, Supreme Verdict, humility etc), elves, and high tide. He comes out vs most fair decks. Worst case he flashes back therapy or can be sacced to phyrexian tower or recurring nightmare, so I havent really had a problem getting rid of him if I have had to.
I've changed my build a tad, but I've really been enjoying it. In this meta, Rhino isn't bad at all.
-Matt
Quick little SCG Portland report. First time bringing this particular list to an event (outside of a small weekly prior), but I was feeling confident I understood many of the interactions it could offer. I played a slight variation of HoneyT's Punishing Fit list to 6-2-1, and would confidently register it for the upcoming invitational. I won't go in-depth, as I was running on fumes all day and my notes are lacking in detail. I'll mention what I sideboarded for the match-ups, and would love any and all commentary, as I'm still not sure my decisions were correct.
Maindeck (60):
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Eternal Witness
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Huntmaster of the Fels
1x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan
4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Liliana of the Veil
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
1x Golgari Charm
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Bayou
2x Badlands
1x Taiga
3x Swamp
2x Forest
1x Mountain
Sideboard (15):
3x Surgical Extraction (West Coast loves their graveyard strategies)
3x Thoughtseize
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Slaughter Games
1x Krosan Grip
1x Massacre
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Golgari Charm
R1 - "OP" - from "Whoops" - Burn:
This entire match was a blur. SCG has pushed Legacy to a 9:00am start, and I'm not exactly a morning person. My opponent was quite friendly though, and very enthusiastic about their choice of 8th edition Mountains.
G1: I get 3'd repeatedly, back-to-back Searing Blazes knocking off my DRS and Scooze. I'm dead before I can stick anything to pull me back into the game.
I'm looking to cut more clunky cards for quicker ways of interacting/stabilizing. There's a small part of me that cringes when bringing in Thoughtseize, but I rather lose two (on my own accord) and gain some information, than take a Fireblast to the dome.
-3 Pernicious Deed : Too slow
-1 Primeval Titan: ^
+3 Thoughtseize: Stated above
+1 Golgari Charm: Regeneration mode, and acts as an answer to Eidolon and Vortex
G2: Goblin Guide smacks me several times before my opponent decides to 3 me a bunch. I dealt with the pesky 2/2, and after a Therapy on Blaze reveals that the coast is clear, I begin to deploy Scooze and DRS. Unfortunately, runner-runner Blazes/Bloods knock out my dorks, and I never hit my 4th land for the Huntmaster or GSZ (for Finks) in hand.
0-1 (0-2)
R2 - Anthony from Portland - Dead-Guy Ale:
G1: We both mulligan our 7's, but seem content with our fresh hands. I lead with an Explorer, which immediately gets the look-over. He plays out a SFM fetching up Batterskull. I therapy away the Skull, seeing a Bob and a couple of STP's. The flashback strips his hand of the removal spells, and ramps me towards 3rd turn Huntmaster. He Disfigures the lumberjack, but I burn out his Bob in return. My wolf beats down until I find an Eternal Witness for Huntmaster. Huntmaster is deployed a second time, and his hand becomes cluttered with thoughtseizes/removal spells while creatures kill him.
In creature heavy match-ups, I decided to cut down on my # of Tops when boarding. I found that I was using my most/all my mana each turn, and the Grove-Lock often negates the need for an immediate threat or alternative removal spell.
-2 Sensei's Divining Top: Unnecessary at 4x
-1 Golgari Charm: -1/-1 seemed to be only relevant mode.
+1 Krosan Grip: SFM and potential Pithing Needles
+1 Massacre: Creatures + Plains
+1 Toxic Deluge: Creatures
G2: Very similar to G1, except a bit longer. I got to flip Huntmaster for the first time (which was awesome), and while his Wastelands took care of my Groves, I still had no problem removing anything that clogged up the board.
1-1 (2-2)
R3 - Josh from Portland(?) - BUG Control:
I knew he was on some type of BUG list, but I didn't know his threat/removal configuration. I did however overhear him bad-mouthing Nic Fit the day before, so I was ready to get some revenge.
G1: We durdle around for the first couple of turns, trading hand-attack spells. His remove my Deed and Liliana, while I strip him of a counter-magic. His Brainstorms had hidden multiple True-Names, which solidify my thoughts surrounding his prior choices. I manage to stick a Top, and swing the life totals in my favor through various GSZ bullets, but I end up bricking on my spins as the TNN count stacks up to an impressive 3.
I didn't see many permanents worth targeting, and I'm really just looking to either stick a threat or grind away TNN. Worth noting I also saw Creeping Tar Pit in the match-up.
-3 Abrupt Decay: Nothing good to hit.
+3 Red Elemental Blast: Vs. Blue
There's a chance I should have brought in Thoughtseizes, but I feel like he can recover from them quite easily.
G2: This game takes forever, but I have pretty solid control of the board. There's a small period of time where he has attacked my mana with Wasteland to the point where neither of us can cast any spells of merit. During this time I have a Liliana in play however, which makes any creatures he deploys rather underwhelming. Once we start slinging cards again, his 4x Treasure Cruises don't find him anything too relevant, and I manage to overwhelm him with threats. Wolf Run did a hell of a job this game.
G3: We have 4 or 5 minutes left on the clock, and I don't believe I can possibly win in that time. I keep a rather annoying hand, and force a draw. Very unexciting, and somewhat frustrating was I believe that it would have been in both our interest to concede earlier in G2. I apologize to everyone that I couldn't truly avenge our archetype.
R4 - Aaron from Seattle - UW/r Stoneblade:
Into the briny depths of the draw-bracket I go.
G1: He starts off with a very common series of plays (Tundra + Ponder), but his lack of pressure leads me to believe his is either on Miracles, Gold Digger or some Trueblade variant. This causes me to hold onto my Therapy looking to dig up some more information before making a play. Deciding to finally make a move, I name FoW, but in hindsight I believe Brainstorm would have been a better call. Sure enough, I brick but he reveals a Brainstorm, Dig Through Time, some counter-magic, a TNN and a Clique. I proceed to play like a ham sandwich for the rest of the game, as 3/1's beat away at me, and I'm unable to stick a Deed or find a Charm.
I don't believe I boarded in this match very well.
-1 Kitchen Finks: Vs. slower list w/ STP
-1 Golgari Charm: Still not sure. Massacre fills the sweeper role, while being easier to cast around Spell Pierce.
-1 Maelstrom Pulse: Expensive. Grip and REB just seem stronger.
-1 Green Sun's Zenith: Somewhat expensive, and not as eager to stick a creature.
-3 Abrupt Decay: Also unsure. Plenty of other ways to remove creatures.
+3 Red Elemental Blast: Vs. Blue
+2 Thoughtseize: Need to clear the path for Deed/Threats. Didn't feel all 3 were necessary though.
+1 Krosan Grip: His various Equipment.
+1 Massacre: Plains + Creatures
G2: I rip apart his hand, and manage to keep him from developing anything of note. I see Containment Priests, so I take a mental note to be cautious when GSZ'ing. It takes a while for me to close out the game, but a combination of Thrun, Huntmaster and Wolf-Run end up taking us to G3.
G3: I start off ripping at his hand again, seeing an Academy Ruins. It ends up causing quite a fuss, as I never end up having an opportune time to search out a Scavenging Ooze to get rid of Batterskull permanently. I get knocked down incredibly low, but end up stabilizing between Thragtusk and Punishing Fire. While we were both playing at a reasonable pace, time is called and we go to turns. I had lethal on board, 4 cards in hand and approximately 14 lands in play. Instead of the draw, Aaron decides to concede. I thanked him repeatedly, and wished him the best with his time in Portland.
R5 - Daniel from Vancouver, WA - Shardless BUG:
I thought this deck had gone the way of the dodo bird.
G1: He does typical Shardless things, as I start to strip away at his hand. I have the ol' double explorer, double therapy hand. Good times. Great times! I draws a bunch of cards off of Visions + Baleful Strixs, and manages to stick a Jace. I attempt a GSZ for 4, and that gets quickly Force'd. He has to pitch another Force to do so however, clearing the way for a follow-up Thragtusk. Feeling comfortable behind his fall of artifact creatures and Goyfs, he decides to tick Jace up to 10, instead of dealing with the big beast. This lets me play and pop Deed for 3, giving me a clean 7 for one. He does some more things involving Liliana and Jace, but Mr. Troll Face joins the party, and he brought Wolf-Run. For the record, he had 14 cards left in his library at the end of this game.
-1 Golgari Charm: Helps with the idiot bird, but not much else.
-3 Liliana of the Veil: I couldn't imagine her being all that great in this match.
+3 Red Elemental Blast: Vs. Blue
+1 Toxic Deluge: He likes to clog the board.
G2: This game was a bit of a blur. I snagged 2x Force of Will off of a Therapy, and Pulse took out 2x DRS. Kitchen Finks caused a bit of havoc, Red Blast took care of a Jace, and PFire lock cleaned up shop.
R6 - Barbed Lightning from The Source - Death & Taxes
Got to sit across from a fellow sourcer. After that awkward pause of meeting someone whom you've only ever interacted with on the internet, things loosen up and we have a very friendly match. We both acknowledged how bad this match-up is for DNT, and sure and shoot it was incredibly lopsided.
G1: He has a standard DNT start of Mom + Thalia + Revokers (3 of them). I produced an opening that led him to believe I was on Punishing Jund (DRS + Scavenging Ooze, with a Grove as a mana source). I have this juicy Golgari Charm in my hand, but Revoker on DRS stops me from getting to the necessary 3 mana for the spicy blow-out. I eventually get there, and my dorks end up taking over the game.
-2 Sensei's Divining Top: As mentioned before, I imagine I would be busy using my mana for other things.
-2 Veteran Explorer: Vs. STP, and I feel like there are more productive things to be done in the match.
+1 Massacre: Vs. Plains + Creatures
+1 Toxic Deluge: Vs. Creatures
+1 Krosan Grip: This hits soooooooooo many things in this match.
+1 Golgari Charm: Great vs. X/1's, and any possible Enlightened Tutor goodies.
G2: I get a pretty typical Explorer + Therapy hand, hitting 2x STP. He shows me an Enlightened Tutor, which fetches up a Batterskull to play off his newly acquired Snow-Covered Plains. I forgot how much I hated playing against this card. It ends up catapulting his life total to 43, but I finally manage to get him in a situation where he has no cards in hand, I have a Liliana and a Deed in play. I attempt to blow the deed for 5, he returns the Batterskull and Lilly makes him trash it. From there on out Thragtusk slowly chips away at his life-total, and a Prime Time grabs me a Kessig Wolf Run to clean up quickly. Not every day I get to say "In response, I'll give my 5/3 +8/+0 and Trample". Having played DNT for quite some time, I was incredibly stupid to have extended my manabase as much as I did. Cataclysm would have dumpstered me beyond belief.
R6 - Brad from Seattle(?) - UR Delver
I still believe this is a positive match-up for me, but they have a "god-draw" which ends the game before I'm able to develop. Brad is a nice guy though. I see him at most events in the Pacific Northwest, and we usually end up sitting near each other during events. Cool to finally put a name to the face/voice.
G1: I get absolutely trashed. Double Delvers, backed by double Dazes prevent me from removing his creatures. With no Decay in sight, I get burned out before being able to even think about stabilizing.
-3 Liliana of the Veil: Expensive and weak Vs. Pyromancer and friends.
-1 Primeval Titan: Too big. Other threats will make do.
-1 Sensei's Divining Top: Using my mana each turn to prevent myself from dying. No time for dilly-dallying.
+3 Red Elemental Blast: Vs. Blue
+1 Toxic Deluge: Vs. Creatures
+1 Golgari Charm: Vs. X/1's
G2: I put a bit more of a fight, but Finks can only stall for so long. I still can't find a Decay, and eventually my remaining 12 life points just get burned out. Welp.
After the match, Brad confesses he just nutter-buttered me and believes that there's probably more to this match-up. I'd be inclined to agree. Well, there goes Top 8, but I'm still up for qualifying for the Invitational if I snag Top 32.
R7 - Tom "The Boss" Ross from SCG - Jeskai Ascendancy Combo:
Welp, here we go. I knew he was on Ascendancy Combo, but I had never really seen it in action. I assumed that I could put up a good fight, considering his win conditions, but having never played the deck I wasn't entirely confident.
G1: An early Explorer + Therapy hits 2x Jeskai Ascendancy, and helps me set up shop. He cruises into more cruises, into more cruises, but is never able to combo off against my arsenal of removal. It takes a while, as I'm being incredibly cautious, but I end up killing him at a healthy life total. Pernicious Deed gets a gold sticker for the disgustingly satisfying things it did this match.
I may have over-sideboarded due to my inexperience, but it worked out well.
-1 Maelstrom Pulse: Slow, and Charm does the job much better.
-1 Kitchen Finks: Seemed unnecessary.
-1 Primeval Titan: So darn big.
-2 Green Sun's Zenith: My game plan was to strip him of all win-cons. Zenith doesn't exactly assist in this.
-3 Liliana of the Veil: At an all-time low in this match-up.
+1 Golgari Charm
+2 Slaughter Games
+3 Surgical Extraction
+3 Red Elemental Blast
On the draw, decided to give 61 cards a whirl.
G2: I Cabal Therapy away some counter-magic, to clear the way for a Golgari Charm to take out his Young Peezy. It ends up working, and I'm staring at this Surgical Extraction in my hand. He has some unknown cards, but I figure it would be worth using Surgical on the Pyromancer (on draw step). I decline to do so, and naturally he slams a second Pyromancer. I end up taking care of this one as well, and decide to bite the bullet at Surgical it. He responds with a Surgical of his own, protecting his small # of threats. All this time he has been cruising (and does so a total of 4x times in this game). I get a Slaughter Games off on Jeskai Ascendancy, but he only had one left after boarding. This does allow me to get a glance at the Meddling Mages he sided in. He prevents me from landing a significant threat, so it looks like we're on the PFire plan. After getting him quite low, he casts a Brainstorm leaving only a fetchland available for finding a mana source. Expecting him to shuffle (and knowing he has a Spell Pierce in hand), I wait for him to fetch before taking action. He cracks his land (going to 3), I PFire in response (down to 1), return it to my hand with Grove (back to 2) and tap out to cast it again (hopefully killing him). He is resigned to Force (pitching Pierce, putting him at 1) which leaves him in a sticky situation. He untaps, looks at his life total and the board, shrugs, and then casts Pithing Needle. "I'll name Grove". Oh, I get it. I untap, at the board. "You're at 1? Tap Grove of the Burnwillows for red mana. You gain one life and my Punishing Fire Trig..." - "Yeah, you got me."
Alright, we're still live for Top 32.
R8 - Joshua from The Pacific Northwest(?) - UR Delver:
For whatever reason, I was under the impression he was on ANT. That said, I'm glad he wasn't, as I kept a god-awful hand for that match-up.
G1: He has an incredibly quick start, but I'm able to stabilize somewhat. Kitchen Finks makes an appearance and helps out a considerable amount. Golgari Charm clears up the board, and we're ready to restart the game. He has one (random) card in hand, and I have a choice. Either tapout for GSZ -> Thragtusk, or go for the "safer" GSZ -> Huntmaster and play around Daze. I was at a somewhat healthy life total, but you can never be too safe vs. UR Delver. I go for the Tusk, and naturally he has Daze #3. Welp, what's the worse that can happen. He untaps and then proceeds to chain two Treasure Cruises. I get chipped down by a dork to 5, but manage to run him out of cards again. I've got a top going, all the mana in the world and 2x PFire + Decay. I'm not seeing anything to help me survive/win however, and runner-runner bolts unfortunately ends me.
-3 Liliana of the Veil: Expensive and weak Vs. Pyromancer and friends.
-1 Primeval Titan: Too big. Other threats will make do.
-1 Sensei's Divining Top: Using my mana each turn to prevent myself from dying. No time for dilly-dallying.
+3 Red Elemental Blast: Vs. Blue
+1 Toxic Deluge: Vs. Creatures
+1 Golgari Charm: Vs. X/1's
G2: I mulligan to 6, while he takes 5. Not exactly the way I wanted to lead this match to an epic finale, but Therapy + Finks and PFire lock going make this rather quick.
G3: We're both on 7. My hand is a thing of beauty. Not too ridiculous, but it just oozes of Nic Fit (no pun intended, nor appropriate as there was no Ooze in my hand). He Ponders (shuffles) and then passes. Great, no Delver! I play an Explorer and pass. He casts a Swiftspear, probe and then tanks about attacking into my Explorer. He declines to do so, and just ships the turn. I'm not sure why, but he seemed incredibly nervous as a crowd had begun to gather. I'm not sure how experienced of a tournament player he was, as he seemed to be in his late teens (approx 16-18). Anyways, I cast a Therapy, it resolves and I want to slam this Deed asap. I name Force of Will.... and hit 3 of them. The remainder of his hand was a Moutain and a snapland. It might have been a waste, but I wanted to press this advantage and flashbacked the Therapy naming Hunted Wumpus. Unfortunately I bricked, but the extra mana allowed me to safely resolve a Deed. He does draw a Cruise to pull himself back into the game, but PFire lock and Thrun put a stop to such silly things. With a sigh of relief, the tournament is finally over.
Props:
- HoneyT for posting some sideboard notes (that I should have read more thoroughly) and shipping the list.
- sdeMatt for lending me some pretty English Beta duals to rock.
- Vancouver players for being supportive for taking Nic Fit to a larger event.
- Kessig Wolf Run was an absolute monster.
- All the awesome remarks I got from playing this great deck.
Slops:
- Unfortunately no Top 8/Top 16 for website coverage.
- Always being one step behind getting on camera :(
- Not sideboarding properly
- Needed to play a bit quicker. I'm a fast player, but this is on a completely different level.
Again, I would love any comments or concerns on my sideboarding/build.
Cheers,
Benjamin
/Like.
-Matt
great write up! thanks for the good notes :)
Can someone give me the latest shift wish list? Can't find a new one and I just got the wishes I needed.
It all depends on the style you want to play the deck.
You can either run it as a combo-shell that has a few creatures as support or you can run it as a mid-range deck that has the ability to combo out.
I would defer you to Arianrhod for a combo-style deck list.
Here is my current mid-range deck that I have great results with on mtgo:
[14] Creatures
4 veteran explorer
2 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wood Elves
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
[15] Sorceries
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
3 GSZ
2 Scapeshift
[3] Instant
3 Abrupt Decay
[6] Artifact & Enchantment
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
[23] Land
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
3 Badland
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut
3 Verdant Catacomb
[15] Sideboard
2 Carpet of Flowers (Insane)
3 Slaughter Games
2 Pyroblast
1 Scapeshift
1 GSZ
1 Ruination
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thoughtseize
Let me know if you have any questions about the deck or specific matchups.
Last night I equipped a Siege Rhino with a Batterskull. My life is now complete.
I have been thinking about Restoration Angel as a way to get extra value out of Rhino and other creatures with ETB abilities. Is that too cute? I am aware that it creates some tension in the four drop slot and that Angel is not searchable with GSZ. Perhaps a pod build?
In the Pod build I used Resto and liked it.
I also used it in the pod build it was negilgibly better then just playing another rhino. the only time I wanted it was if I had an active pod a three drop and a thragtusk in play and I was really far behind other then that it wasnt where I wanted to be.
If you were to run a 1-of card to abuse ETB abilities, that card should be recurring nightmare imo. If either one is worth it really depends on how many creatures/ETB abilities you are running.
Realistically, if you're playing Nightmare correctly, the only way they can get rid of it is Thoughtseize or Clique. It's a nightmare, no pun intended, if you can get the right loops going.
-Matt
My list looks a little wonky with the abundance of 3 ofs but I'd suggest anyone interested in seige rhino to give it a whirl and decide for yourself before making the mistake of falling into the 0 or 4 mentality. I have a couple fkex slots main im still not finished with but I'm satisfied keeping them as "the" flex slots. Every other card I'm sold on in its current form.
3 Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Seige Rhino
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Strangleroot Geist (flex)
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sigarda
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Plow
1 Funeral Charm (flex)
1 Golgari Charm (flex)
3 GSZ
2 Sylvan Library
1 Top
1 Recurring Nightmare
6 Basics
6 Duals
7 Fetches
2 Phyrexian Tower
I know I lost a lot of people at no deeds/deluge main. Several more for actually playing 3 ofs and everyone else at Strangleroot Geist but it plays like a smooth union of maverick/Rock/Nic Fit.
For anyone curious this is my current board
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Krosan Grip
1 Council's Judgement
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
Feed back is appreciated, even trolling. The board is still shifting around but any thoughts?