[Deck] Turbo Depths

As said apple :

Decay is better most of the time but grip are way better for blood moon if you don't play the basic swamp like I don't.
There is also the split second stuff for sensei's diving the top and stuff like omnisicence/humility/aluren.
I think you need at the very least 4 answers to CB in the main/side.

I have already been testing a one off tomb in side for CoTv and I think it is a waste slot. Turn two chalice@1 is already good ; versus miracle you prefer casting turn one your needle/map
not going all in crop into tomb and vs storm you can cast it for zero. Vs turbo rea you prefer keeping your crop for bog and keeping options with discard/surgical.

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Originally Posted by apple713

omniscience
Sneak Attack
Aluren
batter skull
inkmoth Nexus
helm of obedience

just off the top of my head.

i run 4 decay main and still play 3 grip in board. I must admit I haven't tinkered much with board since i made it but I made it at a time when omni was played a lot because dig was still in the format. If sneak and omni are not issues in your meta, then decays should be fine. HOWEVER, krosan grip is G instead of GB making it easier to cast for some manabases. Also, under moon, its easier to get access to 1 color instead of two. Do note that grip does not hit magus of the moon tho.

Additionally, there are times when split second does help more than just being uncountable. For example, when you have to target a sensei's divining top.

So as you can see there are some trade offs. I'm sure there are more but I'm completely fried right now.

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Many of those cards get hit with Pithing Needle (don't know how many you are running), and I would rather have more combo-oriented cards post sideboard than Krosan Grip when playing against everything there except Omniscience. Even against Omniscience, while you can get 'em in response to Cunning Wish, you are equally likely to lose to cast Emrakul trigger or cast Griselbrand (even though Omni dies, Grisel will Griz all over you unless you can make Karakas or Marit Lage uncounterably.

However, you did bring up a point that I did not consider, which is the availability of G over BG in certain manabases. I haven't played any other versions so I don't know what those are like. I have 8 fast mana and 3 Expedition Map so I don't have any problems with that. Personally, the only decks I expect Blood Moon out of are

a) prison strategies, where you need to hope that one removal spell (or discard plus removal spell on the play)is good enough
b) Miracles, which, being a slow deck, gives us time to draw out of it

I guess some Elves guy could really get me with a turn 2 Blood Moon...? I don't care about that scenario.

@adrieng: Interesting point on the Chalices. What would you recommend for the Ancient Tomb slot in my board? Right now it's 4 Decay, 4 Surgical, 4 Chalice, Karakas, Needle #4, (empty slot).

Turn 1 blood moon is a thing with painter and big red. I know not super common decks, but with the new recruiter being printed I expect to see the deck a bit more in large paper events. The discussion of taking out fetches also worries me since getting blood mooned seems more devastating than submerge. Maybe a 2:1 split with bayou and blooming marsh.

I am playing a deck very close to yours DNSolver. I have basically taken away 1 duress for a library. Turn 1 library is pretty good. I am also playing a 2:1 split of into the north and map. This is my current sideboard


4 Chalice of the void
3 abrupt decay
2 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Pithing Needle

The card I would like to squeeze in is Tabernacle. Against delver and elves I feel like this is a house and delver is popular these days. It can also slow down BUG, Loam and Maverick, not to mention D&T.

What are your guys thoughts?

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Originally Posted by ComplexPants

Turn 1 blood moon is a thing with painter and big red. I know not super common decks, but with the new recruiter being printed I expect to see the deck a bit more in large paper events. The discussion of taking out fetches also worries me since getting blood mooned seems more devastating than submerge. Maybe a 2:1 split with bayou and blooming marsh.

I am playing a deck very close to yours DNSolver. I have basically taken away 1 duress for a library. Turn 1 library is pretty good. I am also playing a 2:1 split of into the north and map. This is my current sideboard


4 Chalice of the void
3 abrupt decay
2 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Pithing Needle

The card I would like to squeeze in is Tabernacle. Against delver and elves I feel like this is a house and delver is popular these days. It can also slow down BUG, Loam and Maverick, not to mention D&T.

What are your guys thoughts?

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My version is very good against delver. I have 4 abrupt decays and 4 thought seizes for their creatures. I also maindeck chalice and 3x liliana so if the dont have 4-5 creatures to start its unlikely theyll win.

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Originally Posted by apple713

My version is very good against delver. I have 4 abrupt decays and 4 thought seizes for their creatures. I also maindeck chalice and 3x liliana so if the dont have 4-5 creatures to start its unlikely theyll win.

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How does it do against Miracles and ANT? The Turbo version does well against delver just because it is faster and they really don't have good way to get rid of Marit Lage once she appears.

Hi guys, I'm primarily a more midrangey player (DGA, Nic Fit, Mav) but love the Depths+Thespian/Hexmage interaction.

I was wondering if a more midrange build would be viable at all. I know that some lists include Bob and DRS are around, but I don't know if many people are still testing them. I made a quick list that sacrifices the speed of the versions I'm seeing for a more balanced approach. Is this list too diluted or unfocused to be competitive? Thoughts?

(Note: I have not tested any version of Depths or this list yet, I just love the idea :). I'd love to test it when I have time if it seems plausible)

Lands (25):
3 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespians Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Creatures (14):
3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Grim Flayer
3 Vampire Hexmage

Planeswalkers/Enchant/Artifacts (7):
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
2 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle

Instants/Sorceries (14):
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
2 Thoughtseize (or Duress)

Sideboard:
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Tsunami

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Originally Posted by jaruri

Hi guys, I'm primarily a more midrangey player (DGA, Nic Fit, Mav) but love the Depths+Thespian/Hexmage interaction.

I was wondering if a more midrange build would be viable at all. I know that some lists include Bob and DRS are around, but I don't know if many people are still testing them. I made a quick list that sacrifices the speed of the versions I'm seeing for a more balanced approach. Is this list too diluted or unfocused to be competitive? Thoughts?

(Note: I have not tested any version of Depths or this list yet, I just love the idea :). I'd love to test it when I have time if it seems plausible)

Lands (25):
3 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespians Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Creatures (14):
3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Grim Flayer
3 Vampire Hexmage

Planeswalkers/Enchant/Artifacts (7):
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
2 Expedition Map
2 Pithing Needle

Instants/Sorceries (14):
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
2 Thoughtseize (or Duress)

Sideboard:
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Tsunami

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I would say, try my version of the deck since they are incredibly similar. I am not running 3 Dark Confidant, 4 Deathrite Shaman or 3 Grim Flayer but everything else looks similar. What I think you'll find with your list is that you are essentially playing a weaker BUG deck that steals some games with Dark depths. One of the benefits to having 0 creatures in the deck is that it more or less blanks their removal. Of course if you are getting them to swords your creatures thats fine, but things that die to bolt are often just dead cards. Having only hexmage as a creature is generally a better idea, at least from what I've found. Also, if you were gonna add creatures, the creature at the top of the list should probably be knight of the reliquary. Yes its white but it adds so much more value because of the land tutor synergy. Dark depths seems like more of an after thought from looking at your list. I'm saying that because the creatures don't do much for the combo.

There is nothing glaringly wrong with your list and you'll win games just maybe not as many as you would with the suggested deck lists in the primer.


To answer your question more directly its probably too unfocused to become a staple version of the deck. Sure you can play dark depths combo in that shell just as you can play it in maverick but I think you'd have better luck playing it in maverick.

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Originally Posted by ComplexPants

How does it do against Miracles and ANT? The Turbo version does well against delver just because it is faster and they really don't have good way to get rid of Marit Lage once she appears.

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It does better than any other version of the deck that ive played. I built the deck to closely resembly shardless because at the time i had talked to miracles players and they told me shardless was not a good matchup for them. So i took the control elements from shardless like liliana, decay, thoughtsieze, added some of my own , chalice of the void, and took out all the creatures. Instead of brainstorms and other dig spells i have tutors for my lands.

I dont have exact numbers for you because i dont play nearly as often as the other guys on here now. Law school keeps me fairly busy.

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Originally Posted by apple713

I would say, try my version of the deck since they are incredibly similar. I am not running 3 Dark Confidant, 4 Deathrite Shaman or 3 Grim Flayer but everything else looks similar. What I think you'll find with your list is that you are essentially playing a weaker BUG deck that steals some games with Dark depths. One of the benefits to having 0 creatures in the deck is that it more or less blanks their removal. Of course if you are getting them to swords your creatures thats fine, but things that die to bolt are often just dead cards. Having only hexmage as a creature is generally a better idea, at least from what I've found. Also, if you were gonna add creatures, the creature at the top of the list should probably be knight of the reliquary. Yes its white but it adds so much more value because of the land tutor synergy. Dark depths seems like more of an after thought from looking at your list. I'm saying that because the creatures don't do much for the combo.

There is nothing glaringly wrong with your list and you'll win games just maybe not as many as you would with the suggested deck lists in the primer.


To answer your question more directly its probably too unfocused to become a staple version of the deck. Sure you can play dark depths combo in that shell just as you can play it in maverick but I think you'd have better luck playing it in maverick.

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Thanks for the feedback! I was thinking including high value creatures could help out a little vs the various things lost but a mav build would probably be better in the end. I'll try out your list and see how that feels too. Thanks!

Played an 11-man tournament today.

R1 bye

R2 UR Delver 2-1 (lost G1 because I wasn't aggressive enough)

R3 Miracles 1-2
I am thinking I am going to put a Volrath's Stronghold in the sideboard. That card will change this matchup completely - really obnoxious if they don't have Counter-Top with a 2.

R4 Burn 2-0

Edit: Played some games against Miracles. Volrath's is good but it doesn't win the omega-late game against Venser, Shaper Savant - Karakas loop. I am investigating other options.

DNSolver, would you mind sharing your SB guide for some of the more common matchups?

I just beat Miracles, didn't even think that was possible.

I had given up on the matchup.

My sideboard is in flux because I'm considering ways to beat Miracles.

Right now one of the suggestions is Nephalia Drownyard.

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Originally Posted by DNSolver

My sideboard is in flux because I'm considering ways to beat Miracles.

Right now one of the suggestions is Nephalia Drownyard.

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Are you thinking (or was the suggestion) of Drownyard as a way to fight SD Top, or as a way of trying to deck them? If it's the former, Drownyard is could actually help them (sans brainstorm) depending on what they are floating. Fighting Top with Needles, Krosan Grips, Decays, and Extractions seems better for that scenario. If you are going for decking, I'd be very curious about how that works out if you test it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DNSolver

My sideboard is in flux because I'm considering ways to beat Miracles.

Right now one of the suggestions is Nephalia Drownyard.

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That sounds like some neat tech, would you run a blue source with that or solely rely on thespians?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DNSolver

My sideboard is in flux because I'm considering ways to beat Miracles.

Right now one of the suggestions is Nephalia Drownyard.

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Do you think Cavern of Souls has any merit? It gives access to an uncounterable Hexmage combo, which is less resource intensive than a Stage combo. Might be too narrow though.

Miracles countering our Hexmages is not the issue - we can combo with just lands and Counterbalance isn't the issue, it's Terminus + Swords + potential Blood Moons. We need Decays to deal with Blood Moon so I would rather have a land that wins us the game as long as we can deal with Blood Moon. I'm picturing the entire goal of the post-board games to be assembling Drownyard, Stage on Island/Tundra, basic Forest and Swamp. I am also considering Shivan Gorge but Drownyard is around the same clock while also messing up their Terminus.

If I wasn't going to run this plan, it would be:
+4 Surgical to disrupt Terminus, +4 Decay for Blood Moon/Counterbalance, +4 Chalice of the Void, +1 Karakas, +4th Needle
-4 Elvish Spirit Guide, -4 Lotus Petal -3 Expedition Map, -3 Duress
or something along those lines. We would play a long game, so we cut the fast mana. We keep hands with Chalice or disruption like Needle.

If we have Drownyard in our sideboard, we can have another angle where we can play for the turbo long game. We could cut an additional discard and bring in our entire sideboard.

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Originally Posted by DNSolver

Miracles countering our Hexmages is not the issue - we can combo with just lands and Counterbalance isn't the issue, it's Terminus + Swords + potential Blood Moons. We need Decays to deal with Blood Moon so I would rather have a land that wins us the game as long as we can deal with Blood Moon.

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This is correct.

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Originally Posted by DNSolver

If I wasn't going to run this plan, it would be:
+4 Surgical to disrupt Terminus, +4 Decay for Blood Moon/Counterbalance, +4 Chalice of the Void, +1 Karakas, +4th Needle
-4 Elvish Spirit Guide, -4 Lotus Petal -3 Expedition Map, -3 Duress
or something along those lines. We would play a long game, so we cut the fast mana. We keep hands with Chalice or disruption like Needle.

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Your side boarding choices here are the basis for why I prefer my version. You hard matches tend to go longer, so i feel its better to have a better long game. You take out all of your speed against miracles, which is correct and so I would rather have a better game 1 against my harder matches than a slightly better matchup against matches that are already decent.

I am playing a version similar to DNSolver and I find that ESG is probably the Allstar fast mana. People just don't expect you to crop rotation while tapped out. It flat steals games and sometime needle and map on turn 1 is back breaking.


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Yeah Spirit Guide is easily the card that breaks some games wide open for you, allowing you to steal. Keep in mind when your opponent has or hasn't seen Spirit Guide because then you will know if they have any clue to play around it. You can use it as time walk when your opponent turn 1 tries to Wasteland you when you Rotate.

I took a look at your list apple. That might be a direction I end up going in.

Edit: Updating my list of contenders for Miracles matchup breakers. First consideration: Land or nonland? If nonland, space needs to be made. Probably Surgicals would get cut.

1) Rite of Consumption. Was played in older lists but doesn't do anything without Lage. Against Miracles we have little problem making Lage, and then we can circumvent 4 StP 4 Terminus 1 Karakas by making Lage mainphase and then shooting them in the face. They need a counterspell or counter/top to stop this. The sideboard plan therefore would be +4th Needle, +4 Decay, +X Rite, - fast mana and Not of This World, but we could keep in discard to take their counterspells. EDIT 2: Or possibly this over Not of This World maindeck??????

2) Shrine of Burning Rage. A true Legacy staple (sarcasm) that just sits there and ticks up. It's like Shivan Gorge (which I was interested in the first place), but it works through Blood Moon and gets hit by Wear/Tear. Kind of a trade-off.

3) Bitterblossom. A great turn 1 or turn 2 play against Miracles, and we have discard to back it up.