[DTB] U/R Delver

Been doing some testing at the weekend with preordains over ponders as Threevoices says above and would have to say I really like it.

Running the list with the value 1-ofs of Bed Rev, TNN, Peezy, Lavamancer and Stormchaser. Also 4 bolt, 4 chain, 2 forked bolt, 4 preordain and 2 ponders.

Preordain just feels better in this deck, it gives you a certain amount of velocity, especially early game, to just ditch things that you don't need and dig a bit deeper for things you do need. It also fits in really nicely with brainstorm for occasions when you don't have a fetch and need to get rid of some cards on the top of the library.

Stormchaser is still, by far, the weakest card in the deck. I am considering maybe replacing him with a Soul-Scar mage as it's potentially useful with Goyfs and such becoming more commonplace and it's still a one drop even if it doesn't have haste.

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Originally Posted by Smuggo

Been doing some testing at the weekend with preordains over ponders as Threevoices says above and would have to say I really like it.

Running the list with the value 1-ofs of Bed Rev, TNN, Peezy, Lavamancer and Stormchaser. Also 4 bolt, 4 chain, 2 forked bolt, 4 preordain and 2 ponders.

Preordain just feels better in this deck, it gives you a certain amount of velocity, especially early game, to just ditch things that you don't need and dig a bit deeper for things you do need. It also fits in really nicely with brainstorm for occasions when you don't have a fetch and need to get rid of some cards on the top of the library.

Stormchaser is still, by far, the weakest card in the deck. I am considering maybe replacing him with a Soul-Scar mage as it's potentially useful with Goyfs and such becoming more commonplace and it's still a one drop even if it doesn't have haste.

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Stormchaser has always been the worst card in the deck and I've never understood why people played it. Especially with the way the metagame is now, it's either better to be hyper agressive with more burn and Goblin Guide, or more midrange with more cantrips and Young Pyromancer.

I still think it makes more sense to go Grixis if going the Young Pyromancer route, but it is what it is.

I think the hyper aggressive burn heavy list is well positioned in the current metagame, honestly. It's unfortunate no one else is trying it though...

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Stormchaser has always been the worst card in the deck and I've never understood why people played it. Especially with the way the metagame is now, it's either better to be hyper agressive with more burn and Goblin Guide, or more midrange with more cantrips and Young Pyromancer.

I still think it makes more sense to go Grixis if going the Young Pyromancer route, but it is what it is.

I think the hyper aggressive burn heavy list is well positioned in the current metagame, honestly. It's unfortunate no one else is trying it though...

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Preban Young Pyromancer was an amazing card in all UR Delver lists, it won soooo many games for me and was in ALL builds better than Stormchaser imo. Postban it is true, Ur Prowess is kind of dead or at least extremely nerfed and Young Pyromancer is more Tempo than Aggro so either some Burn heavy list with Delver splash and no Pyromancer or go full Grixis Delver, even if B is only for Gurmag Angler and black sideboard cards.

I have been testing the deck non stop since the bannings and it just saddens me inside that Prowess got nerfed. It was my favorite deck of all time (Im playing since 2009), I kind of realize now how people felt when Survival of the Fittest got banned. Probe was just such a gamebreaker for this deck. There could be a potential Ur Delver list if we get either a blue or red Gurmag Angler/Hooting Mandrills or just a little faster Reveler. Right now the deck doesnt really has a home. I am currently on an URg build which is splashing for Hooting Mandrills, the rest is classical UR Delver without Swiftspears. Works quite well, just the 2 Tropical Island for Mandrills feel like bad Basics for a blue/red Mandrills. I would also NOT recommend buying into UR Delver right now unless you need Volcanics anyway. I am not trying to say that deck is unplayable, it just made a Top 8 at some big Japan Eternal Event. But it got nerfed while other decks like S&S or Miracles remained their level. Probe made potentially between 1-2 additional damage when drawn once, 2-5 when drawn twice. That can be a single Burn spell you did not cast or a whole Fireblast to finish of. Extremely important against Combo decks while racing, also very important while pushing forward against control decks to not run into Terminus next turn. Anyway everybody whos playing the deck please share your experience! Maybe its just a completely new list what the deck needs.

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

Preban Young Pyromancer was an amazing card in all UR Delver lists, it won soooo many games for me and was in ALL builds better than Stormchaser imo. Postban it is true, Ur Prowess is kind of dead or at least extremely nerfed and Young Pyromancer is more Tempo than Aggro so either some Burn heavy list with Delver splash and no Pyromancer or go full Grixis Delver, even if B is only for Gurmag Angler and black sideboard cards.

I have been testing the deck non stop since the bannings and it just saddens me inside that Prowess got nerfed. It was my favorite deck of all time (Im playing since 2009), I kind of realize now how people felt when Survival of the Fittest got banned. Probe was just such a gamebreaker for this deck. There could be a potential Ur Delver list if we get either a blue or red Gurmag Angler/Hooting Mandrills or just a little faster Reveler. Right now the deck doesnt really has a home. I am currently on an URg build which is splashing for Hooting Mandrills, the rest is classical UR Delver without Swiftspears. Works quite well, just the 2 Tropical Island for Mandrills feel like bad Basics for a blue/red Mandrills. I would also NOT recommend buying into UR Delver right now unless you need Volcanics anyway. I am not trying to say that deck is unplayable, it just made a Top 8 at some big Japan Eternal Event. But it got nerfed while other decks like S&S or Miracles remained their level. Probe made potentially between 1-2 additional damage when drawn once, 2-5 when drawn twice. That can be a single Burn spell you did not cast or a whole Fireblast to finish of. Extremely important against Combo decks while racing, also very important while pushing forward against control decks to not run into Terminus next turn. Anyway everybody whos playing the deck please share your experience! Maybe its just a completely new list what the deck needs.

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I disagree. I don't think the deck lost much. 1-2 points of extra damage from Probe is relevant, but it's minor. The fact that DRS is gone feels like a much bigger deal.

I do think Grixis for Gurmag Angler and better sideboard options is just better for a Young Pyro list, but I think a hyper aggressive UR build is still very good as well.

My Sligh list roasts the current metagame really hard... I just haven't had many opportunities to play lately.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I disagree. I don't think the deck lost much. 1-2 points of extra damage from Probe is relevant, but it's minor. The fact that DRS is gone feels like a much bigger deal.

I do think Grixis for Gurmag Angler and better sideboard options is just better for a Young Pyro list, but I think a hyper aggressive UR build is still very good as well.

My Sligh list roasts the current metagame really hard... I just haven't had many opportunities to play lately.

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What does the Goblins matchup look like? I don't recall from so long ago how the matchup aligns.

I kinda wonder - what is the decisive reason not to play mainboard Surgical instead of lost Probe? Lack of redraw ability is obvious drawback, but in other dimensions it works effectively the same - you have perfect information about opponent's plans and abilities, you trigger prowress for free and more importantly you can deal with threats that tend to kill you g1, like wastelock, Dark Depths, Griselbrand and many others for which you usually side Surgical in either way.
Excuse me if this is laughable argument, I'm not playing the deck myself but a friend of mine does and I started to think about it as I'm quite used to crash him with Lands ;)

It's not a bad way to play it. I remember watching Jacob Kory pilot a UR Delver with maindeck Surgicals to what was at least a top 4 at an scg event several years ago.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

What does the Goblins matchup look like? I don't recall from so long ago how the matchup aligns.

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The deck pretty much crushes Goblins. I mean, I've lost games to Goblins before when I get stuck on a one-lander, don't get me wrong, but when the deck works as intended, it demolishes Goblins. Too much effecient removal and threats. It's like a better version of Zoo. 4 Forked Bolt does a number on decks like Goblins, D&T, Elves, etc.

The biggest drawback is the combo matchups in game one since the FoW's are in the sideboard, but the deck does a good job of racing S&T in game one, and the other combo matchups seem to be much less represented right now. Overall the S&T matchup is fine. My list feels very well positioned in the current metagame.

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Originally Posted by Wiktul

I kinda wonder - what is the decisive reason not to play mainboard Surgical instead of lost Probe? Lack of redraw ability is obvious drawback, but in other dimensions it works effectively the same - you have perfect information about opponent's plans and abilities, you trigger prowress for free and more importantly you can deal with threats that tend to kill you g1, like wastelock, Dark Depths, Griselbrand and many others for which you usually side Surgical in either way.
Excuse me if this is laughable argument, I'm not playing the deck myself but a friend of mine does and I started to think about it as I'm quite used to crash him with Lands ;)

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I would say that if you wanted to replace probe with another phyrexian mana card then mutagenic growth is better for this deck mainboard as it fits in better with your core strategy of just burning people down before they can stabilise. On a prowess creature mutagenic becomes +3/+3 for nothing but also good on delver, TNN or even just a peezy token.

Hello, anybody here still playing UR Delver/Burn/Prowess?? Did the deck just die or are people not interested in it anymore? Since UR is the only deck I own in Legacy I am still playing and grinding the deck non stop. I think while cards like Swiftspear and Stormchaser got weakened by the bannings, playing the deck like a classical Tempo list does work really well. The main core of Ur still presents a lot of high valuable cards in Legacy which can be used effectively even in the postban meta. Not a Tier 1 deck for sure, but a true Delver deck which can always perform on the highest level with nuts draws and Brainstorm backup. For my experience and testing the Ur Delver tempo list comes down to a couple of core cards which I want to mention:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
1-3 True-Name Nemesis
1-3 Grim Lavamancer
0-2 Bedlam Reveler
0-2 Snapcaster Mage

These are the overall hottest creatures which UR has to offer. The main creatures for the deck are 4 Delver and 4 Pyromancer which are the reason to actually play the deck. The second best creatures are Lavamancer and TNN. While both should be played and included somehow it is definitely preference and meta depending how many of those you want to play. The last creatures to mention are Reveler and Snapcaster. Reveler can be quite dead when drawn early but presents a HUGE card boost later, especially when played in grindier games vs. Miracles or Grixis Control. Also Reveler still works good with Lavamancer since both present power in different matchups. Lavamancer wins very much alone vs. D&T or Elves (theoretical speaking) in which Reveler can be very weak. Against Miracles on the other hand Lavamancer does not find good target except the player in which Reveler is practically Ancestral Recall + a body. Snapcaster is a card which is the best way used in a reactive way which means in a proactive Delver deck such as Grixis Delver or Ur Delver it does not really shine. You can build your deck around it by giving it more specific targets such as Spell Snare, Stifle, Vapor Snag or something else. Still Snapcaster feels a little clunky and the weakest in an aggressive Delver shell which should be pure Tempo. The next cards are pretty much written in stone, cantrips, counter spells and burn spells. The core:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt

The flex spots:

0-2 Spell Pierce
0-2 Spell Snare
0-4 Stifle
0-2 Forked Bolt
0-4 Chain Lightning
0-2 Price of Progress
0-1 Fireblast
0-4 Wasteland

2 Preordain feels like the right number postban also in Grixis Delver so far, the same goes with 2 Spell Pierce in the typical tempo lists. The next cards decide how aggressive your tempo list should look like and how many removal spells you want to play. I think when it comes to removal 5 are minimum (4 Bolt, 1 Forked Bolt) and 8 are maximum (4 Bolt, 4 Chain Lightning for example). Since Ur does not have access to B like Grixis Delver which fills nowadays flex spots with discard spells or something like Bitterblossom, the route Ur must take is a burn heavier plan to stand out as an archetype for itself. When it comes to Wasteland vs. Price of Progress you need to consider if you want to play more "aggro" or more tempo. Wasteland makes Delver, Daze and Spell Pierce much better while Price of Progress wins certain matchups and can lead with Snapcaster and Lavamancer to a counter-burn list. Also splitting those in 2/2 can be a healthy mix since you can find them with Brainstorm and Co. whenever you need them. This is all preference and also meta calling. Also to mention are Spell Snare and Stifle. Spell Snare is a card which I am not really sure against what it truly shines. Against creature decks you should prefer burn spells and against mirrors and control decks Spell Snare can be dead when drawn at the wrong time. Stifle is a card which does not really belong in Ur Delver for my understanding because Ur Delver is a very proactive Delver deck. The reason Canadian can play Stifle this good is that Mongoose, Mandrills, Goyf and TNN are all cards which are better a little later in the game than in the very first turns. Ur Delver can be played more aggressively so Stifle does not really shine while playing Delver and Pyromancer. The rest of the core cards are lands which should definitely include a playset of Scalding Tarn, at least 2 Volcanic Islands and a minimum of 1 basic of each color.

The other version of UR with Monastery Swiftspear also exists which I didn't mention here. This post is more about the cards you use for the non Prowess Ur Delver deck which is more Tempo orientated and a 2 color Grixis Delver deck. So I hope people are still motivated in playing the deck and some people learned something from this post who do not have the time to grind every day like me. I'll keep you guys updated, peace out!

I still enjoy the deck and am playing the swiftspear variant with 4 preordains, 2 ponder, 4 chain lightning, 2 forked bolt and a bunch of value 1-ofs.

Not been able to play at a tournament for a while tho due to new baby but in practice games with a friend the deck can still perform and I still just like the aggro style of it. I have considered trying the pyro version you mention but not got round to it yet.

Sean Brown highlights the UR Delver deck that made top 4 in Paris in his recent article. He mainly covers the issue of YP (being proactive) and Stifle (being reactive) but also suggests his own build at the end of the article. Generally I would say this is a more controlish version:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...racuse-classic

One card that has been utilized in the past by RUG Delver might also fit: MD Winter Orb-basically a cheaper Back to Basics, considering one can untap a land a turn and play/replay a land (bounced by Daze). I'd be more sold on it than singleton Preordain/Chart a Course, although I see the overall spell count dropping.

I think it's odd that no one is talking about risk factor for this deck, i can really see it replacing bedlam and such.

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Originally Posted by aiescream

I think it's odd that no one is talking about risk factor for this deck, i can really see it replacing bedlam and such.

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These kind of cards are usually traps: Letting your opponent chose what's best for him is not ideal because he knows what's in his interest and, while you might think either choice is fine, one is always worse than the other. That not to say the card can't be powerful but It can come to blow right back in your face.

The card already existed in the form of Browbeat anyway and it has been tested already (this is just a better version of the same card). That said, jump start might make it more playable than the last version and it can't be worse than bedlam since the probe ban really made that card hard to cast for this deck. 1 ofs are usually fine with so many cantrips in legacy.

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Originally Posted by aiescream

I think it's odd that no one is talking about risk factor for this deck, i can really see it replacing bedlam and such.

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I don't really see it being good enough. No one should every really let you draw the cards, so it's 4 damage for 3 mana, which is not cost effective. Jumpstart is not that great really as it offers no card advantage and you basically just used 2 cards and 6 mana to do 8 damage. Why run this when you could do 5 damage for 1 card and 1 mana with thunderous wrath?

Thanks for your thoughts, maybe I should have elaborated why I think this card is good enough to play 2 of in the 75.

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Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc

These kind of cards are usually traps: Letting your opponent chose what's best for him is not ideal because he knows what's in his interest and, while you might think either choice is fine, one is always worse than the other. That not to say the card can't be powerful but It can come to blow right back in your face.

The card already existed in the form of Browbeat anyway and it has been tested already (this is just a better version of the same card). That said, jump start might make it more playable than the last version and it can't be worse than bedlam since the probe ban really made that card hard to cast for this deck. 1 ofs are usually fine with so many cantrips in legacy.

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It's fair and natural to compare browbeat and Risk factor, but for me the combination of jump start AND it being instant speed make it way better than browbeat. Being able to play it end of opponent turn then untap and cast it if needed with the natural draw is very efficient.

You're right with your first point, and you will almost always get the worst choice.
But if you want to draw it's because you have run out of gas and want to find the last damage for finishing off opp, then risk factor just turn out to be 4 damage and turning your next land drop into 4 more damage, i think it's still a very good deal.
If you want to deal damage drawing cards in UR usually get you burning cards, so it's still a sweet deal anyway.

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Originally Posted by Smuggo

I don't really see it being good enough. No one should every really let you draw the cards, so it's 4 damage for 3 mana, which is not cost effective. Jumpstart is not that great really as it offers no card advantage and you basically just used 2 cards and 6 mana to do 8 damage. Why run this when you could do 5 damage for 1 card and 1 mana with thunderous wrath?

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Here again i think what's people missing the most is that risk factor is instant speed so 3 mana is kinda fine. to do 8 damage with thunderous wrath you have to draw an other burn spell, with risk factor you can still chose to play the burn spell and wait for the next land(or daze) draw to jump start it.

Let's compare risk factor with its at the moment contender,
-Bedlam reveler: can only play it when you have run out of gas and you wont be able to hold on counter effects, plus you have to play it during your turn;
-Thunderous wrath: you'll end up doing more damage with risk factor, the only upside is that you can target creature and planeswalker with it;
-Fireblast: same upside than above, and it's an all-in strategy.

But that only my 2 cents, and since I don't have access to a large scene nor MTGO, i just wanted to have your opinion.

There is fourth option though which is to run an additional PoP.

Hello folks, with this post I want to share my updated results and thoughts about UR Delver (tempo version). I had my weekly Legacy on tuesday in my LGS and went 5:0 with it, the list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
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3 Surgical Extraction
2 Price of Progress
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Vapor Snag
2 Abrade
1 Sudden Demise
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Pithing Needle


Tournament report:

First round against Infect, 2-1:
Game 1 he was on the play and killed me turn 3. I didn't know what I was against and kept a hand with almost no interaction, it was like 3 creatures, 2 lands, 1 Daze and a Ponder I think. Game 2 and 3 were decided by very strong hands by my side with a lot of counter magic, 2 Wastelands each game and removal spells. Boarding was -1 TNN -2 Preordain -2 Chain +2 Pyroblast +1 Flusterstorm +2 Abrade. The point with Preordain is that you can not waist to many mana on cantrips in your turn because Infect is very very fast and normally my deck is allready in good shape against it. Having at least 1 free land to interact with is very necessary so 8 cantrips are fine, you never want to be tapped out. Also Abrade destroys Nexus as an artifact removal which even works when he pumps, so Abrade is better than Chain and it is Instant.

Second round against Grixis Control, 2-0:
I was on the play with a glorious start of Delver, Wasteland, Spell Pierce, Ponder and a T4 Pyromancer protected by another FoW and a Bolt for his Strix. Second game I didn't play anything T1 to counter his expected T2 Hymn to Tourach. I play a YP T2 which he Pushes and cast a Strix while I let everything resolve to cast a TNN T3. I have the one Force of Will an another Daze in hand to protect myself from Toxic Deluge and Snapcaster and find 2 Lightning Bolts to finish him off. Even a Liliana, the Last Hope was in play which didn't work out for him. Boarding was -4 Chain -1 FoW +2 Pyroblast +1 Flusterstorm +1 Sulfuric Vortex +1 Needle.

Third round against Burn, 2-0:
Both games were literally decided by a flipped Delver, I just bet him down while killing his creatures and countering the Bolts which targeted Delver. If he wouldn't have drawn that many creatures both games would have been much closer because I was a little light on counter spells and heavy on removal. I boarded. -3 Chain +1 Fluster +2 Abrade. The reason for cutting Chain is I don't want him to copy it and giving my opponent an additional spell so Abrade works better imho.

Fourth round against Lands, 2-1:
Game 1 I was on the draw with a medicore hand and he just Wasteland and Ghost Quarter me to death. Game 2 and 3 I had an early Delver while he couldn't find removal for it. I remember Wastelanding Maze of Ith and Forced a Crop Rotation and another Gamble which were enough to close it out. Game 3 he also had a very bad hand, T3 he gets himself a Loam by Gamble which I Surgical. His exploration also came a little late while I had a YP, 1 or 2 tokens and a Lavamancer which grinded it out. I also remember finding PoP when he drew a Tabernacle but the game was allready over in that stage because I had mana for Lavamancer and tokens or just the PoP. Boarding was -4 Chain -4 Daze +3 Surgical +2 PoP +2 Snag +1 Needle.

Fifth round against Grixis Control, 2-0:
Game 1 was extremely long and grindy, he practically had every answer for any threat I had while I was a short on counter spells. He stabilised when he had around 12 or 13 life while I managed to resolve a TNN. We were both a little flooded, I drew Brainstorm from the top into 2 Chain Lighting and 1 Bolt which closed it out in 2 turns lol. He Brainstormed twice with Jace and didnt find any answers. Game 2 was decided by resolving Sulfuric Vortex Turn 3. He said to me he has a single Hydroblast which hes looking for but never found, he also said he boarded out Jace because my deck was to fast (which I think is a mistake to board out, especially on the play). I managed to get a late Delver which traded with an even later Snapcaster into KComman or something but Vortex was just pressing charges here. Same board as before.


So while I feel good about going 5-0 I honestly have to say I was pretty lucky and draw insane hands that day at some point. I think UR Delver is probably the most inconsistent Delver deck because of its limitation of being 2 colored. The deck comes down to 3 different play lines which I try to simplify:
1. Your best line is the Canadian tempo play. T1 Delver followed up by Wasteland, Daze, Spell Pierce and Lightning Bolt. This is the strongest play you can have with the build. You play less counter spells compared to Canadian which makes it harder to protect your queen. Because of that you have more burn spells which represents 1 turn of attacking and also maybe YP and Lavamancer which have a little more reach. Canadian is just the king in that route but its quite possible with that deck.
2. Your second best line is playing Pyromancer T2 with either a Force of Will or 2 Daze in hand. You allready generate a token by countering your opponents removal and follow with more tokens in T3. Then you can start Wastelanding which would increase you chance by winning with another Spell Pierce or Daze. Also as long as Pyromancer is on the battlefield I try to play the deck as aggressive as possible since you need to generate full value. So Bolt to the face can be a good play in that spot.
3. The third line is just to trade resources in T1-2 and to play TNN T3. If you play against blue you have to make sure to have a counter backup while playing TNN.

Any other scenario is actually not that great for Ur Delver. I think Ur Delver is right now very limited in its cards and also in its ceiling. By limited I don't mean bad, Ur Delver is more of a "okay/decent against the field" deck. You don't really have a very positive matchup but you don't really have to many bad ones either (worst case is Prison and Chalice). The point is that Ur Delver (no matter which version, Prowess or midrange) has to be played quite greedy. Turn 1 Delver is and will always be a house against any deck, so don't be shy to play it when being on the play. Also Force of Will is actually a very good in the deck because it is a hard counter and an excellent tempo card. Never board out all 4, Id say a minimum of 2 should be in there postboard unless you play against something like Cavern of Souls. Also if your hand does not really do anything except cantripping and random counter spells, it is probably not good. I think even having a hand full of counter spells against a deck like storm can be wrong. You definitely need a clock, otherwise you just trade resources but Time Walk yourself. In comparison to Grixis Delver Ur lacks good sideboard cards AND Gurmag Angler. Angler is an insane card for any tempo or blue midrange deck because in this case you can just trade a couple of resources because what grows the GY makes Gurmag Angler happy. You dont really have this in Ur so trading needs to happen while pressuring your opponent on the board. Canadian has this HUGE advantage of Nimble Mongoose which has shroud and is cc1. So once Mongoose resolves its extremely difficult to get rid of and Canadian does its Stifle and counter plan as its best. Ur Delver does not even have a second cc1 creature except for Lavamancer but Lavamancer is not a card which is pressuring right at the beginning, its more of a removal machine with a solid ping every round but also very easy to remove. UR Delver only shines when it has its lines or the right cards. Every game I played was decided sometimes by a single counter spells, once your opponent stabilise its hard to come back with Ur if your opponent is not in burn range. Grixis just has Gurmag Angler which makes the protect the queen plan much more easy because you leave your counterspells for the big boss and Canadian can pressure much more easy because Mongoose is also cc1 and waay harder to remove. So at the end with good hands and a little luck UR Delver is a good deck but its inconsistency and the missing of a red/blue delve creature or something like Mongoose is pretty lackluster. Right now I keep playing the deck but I could imagine to build it even more midrange and to play a full playset of TNN to make it better vs. Control and fair decks while keeping Delver against combo.

Thats it, hope you enjoy reading.

After a long hiatus from legacy i'm back in action guys.
I' ve red the discussion about Risk Factor and i'm inclined to agree on it beeing to clunky but there are several lists on mtgo that seem to do well with 2-3 copies in the main. However, i don't like Stormchaser Mage. It was mediocre even with Probe being legal but now it seems just really really bad and slow.

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Originally Posted by Jonny Tempel

After a long hiatus from legacy i'm back in action guys.
I' ve red the discussion about Risk Factor and i'm inclined to agree on it beeing to clunky but there are several lists on mtgo that seem to do well with 2-3 copies in the main. However, i don't like Stormchaser Mage. It was mediocre even with Probe being legal but now it seems just really really bad and slow.

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I dont see how Risk Factor is going to do anything. I mean first of all it costs 3 mana, thats a lot for Legacy. If my opponent is on 4 life you will get to draw 3 cards but how good is drawing 3 cards for 3 mana? With this logic every Grixis list should play Painful Truths and this is not the case. If my opponent is on lets say 12 life he is probably willing to take 4 damage, if you want to flashback it costs 3 mana again + discarding a card which is creating card disadvantage. I think combo would be willing to take damage all the time and you are tapped out (!) which is very bad. Even playing it End of Turn would be a Time Walk against yourself if you need to respond to a single spell with a Brainstorm before and not to get to play Risk Factor, that would mean itll rot on your hand forever.

I think in Burn the card is actually legit because there is no card manipulation and Burn makes sure your opponent IS actually all the time on 4-5 life so either Browbeat or Risk Factor will add something to your deck. But in a deck with Brainstorm and Force of Will the card just looks very very bad.